I Answered My Own Thread - thank you

[AVBunyan]

Since my question and thread dried up on the vine I thought I’d summarize and then answer my own question.

The question was: “What happened at the point f Salvation?â€Â

Cj gave some info:
Full salvation is a process. First a man believes and confesses Jesus is Lord by the hearing of faith and the power of God working within this man. Then immediately this man receives a regenerated spirit into which God comes to live. We received a regenerated spirit in which the all-inclusive God lives.

Heidi chimed in with an answer:
The law was fulfilled at the moment of Christ's death. He became our permanent atonement for sin. We now come to him for forgiveness and that forgiveness gives us love which enables us to obey the law

Merry Menagarie gave a response:
We became a new creation in Christ. We go from being slaves to sin to being slaves to righteousness. We have the righteousness of Christ imputed in us.

Now on to those who didn’t answer:

No answer from Sputnikboy, Thessalonian, Orthodox Christian, kwag_myers, AwedbyGod, - just ramblings about purgatory and losing salvation, etc.

Don’t you above folks believe one can lose it? Interesting that none of you answered the question.
Now, why didn’t’ some of you folks answer the doctrinal question?
1. You probably just didn’t care to answer a straightly put question.
2. Is it because you don’t really know? This is my personal belief – I’ve been reading your posts no for a month and haven’t seen an clear presentation of exposition of justification yet.

And you wonder why people get wore out posting here with these kinds of shallow, say-nothing responses to vital questions.

Now – here is what I believe the scriptures teach:
The moment the sinner was saved these things took place in time:

1. Was given the faith of Jesus Christ - Eph. 2:8,9
2. Was justified - Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16
3. Was Enabled to believe - Eph. 1:13
4. Was regenerated - Tit. 3:5
6. Was sealed - Eph. 1:13
7. Was glorified - Rom. 8:30
8. Was redeemed - Col. 1:14; Gal. 3:13
9. Was adopted son - Rom. 8:15; 10
10. Was reconciled -Rom. 5:10
11. Was accepted in the beloved - Eph. 1:6
12. Was blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ - Eph. 1:3
13. Was forgiven - Eph. 1:7
14. Was raised up to sit in heavenly places in Christ - Eph. 2:6
15. Became bone and flesh of his flesh - Eph. 5:30
16. Was given an inheritance - Eph. 1:11,
17. Became completed - Col. 2:10
18. Was spiritually circumcised - Col. 2:10-12
19. Was sanctified – I Cor. 1:2
20. Made alive Cor. 15:22
21. Quickened – Eph. 2:1, 5
22. Was into the body of Christ - Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:10-12

Now – there are more but this is enough for now. Note – all the above are past tense – not waiting to happen. And some of you will still think you can lose it anyway.

Why couldn’t you come up with the above? I took them right out of the book! Again, I firmly maintain lost people cannot see the above and most professing saints today cannot discuss the doctrine of salvation. All many of you folks do is try to show us how we are not eternally saved while many of you cannot doctrinally explain justification!

Thanks to you folks who gave a response and to you who didn’t – I never figured you would or could anyway – I gave you the opportunity to explain what you believe and you responded.

Now – the thread is finished and I am finished.

 

[thessalonian]

I know it makes you feel good to think you have a question we cannot answer. I did not ramble about purgatory. I just made a comment about what CJ said, that his theology was simply akin to purgatory. I agree that we become new creations in Christ


1. Was given the faith of Jesus Christ - Eph. 2:8,9
Amen.
2. Was justified - Rom. 3:22; Gal. 2:16
amen.
3. Was Enabled to believe - Eph. 1:13
amen.
4. Was regenerated - Tit. 3:5
amen.
6. Was sealed - Eph. 1:13
amen.
7. Was glorified - Rom. 8:30
not quite.
8. Was redeemed - Col. 1:14; Gal. 3:13
amen.
9. Was adopted son - Rom. 8:15; 10
ament.
10. Was reconciled -Rom. 5:10
amen.
11. Was accepted in the beloved - Eph. 1:6
amen.
12. Was blessed with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ - Eph. 1:3
amen.
13. Was forgiven - Eph. 1:7
amen.
14. Was raised up to sit in heavenly places in Christ - Eph. 2:6
Can fall from grace.
15. Became bone and flesh of his flesh - Eph. 5:30
amen.
16. Was given an inheritance - Eph. 1:11,
amen.
17. Became completed - Col. 2:10
amen.
18. Was spiritually circumcised - Col. 2:10-12
amen.
19. Was sanctified – I Cor. 1:2
amen.
20. Made alive Cor. 15:22
amen.
21. Quickened – Eph. 2:1, 5
Amen.
22. Was into the body of Christ - Eph. 4:5; Col. 2:10-12
Amen.

You don't understand Catholic theology on justification and sanctification my friend. You apparently haven't paid too much attention when you read or you just read for angles rather than understanding.

Blessings

 

[farley]

When one has crossed swords with another on an issue, to no effect, then why go running around 'tilting at windmills'.

When Jesus Christ, Himself, commanded, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit..."

...and a Baptist doesn't even include baptism as necessary for salvation, then I think that it is very acceptable to "shake the dust off" of one's sandals and allow them to follow their delusions.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

You don't understand Catholic theology on justification and sanctification my friend.

I've read your official doctrine, your official creeds, your official Council statements - and a whole lot more - I've debated your folks who reside within the Vatican itself - I know very well what your church teaches even if 99% of professing Catholics do not.

The Catholic Church teaches salvation by faith plus works so therfore they teach a false doctrine.

 

[D46]

Peter commanded baptism...

Ac 2:38 (KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Lord indicated it's importance in Mark 16:16.

Mark 16:16 (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Does it get any more plain?

Significant in that man is a sinner, and needs the purifying influences of the Holy Ghost. It is worthy of remark, that Jesus has made baptism of so much importance, he did not say, indeed, that a man could not be saved without baptism, but he has strongly implied that where this is neglected, knowing it to be a command of the Saviour, it endangers the salvation of the soul. Faith and baptism are the beginnings of a Christian life: the one the beginning of piety in the soul, the other of its manifestation before men, or of a profession of religion. And every man endangers his eternal interest by being ashamed of Christ before men. Why chance it?

 

[AVBunyan]

...and a Baptist doesn't even include baptism as necessary for salvation, then I think that it is very acceptable to "shake the dust off" of one's sandals and allow them to follow their delusions.

I hold to just the opposite - I believe if a man believes baptism is essential to salvation then I shake the dust off my feet. You might as well join the Catholic church - they believe baptism is essential too - along with about 10 other things.

The two threads confimed by belief that many here on this forum have no clue as to what true scriptural salvtion is. All many of you follks talk about is the practical aspects of "salvation" and then make those practical aspects(the walk) the doctrine of salvation.

You missed it - plain and simple. :o

 

[D46]

AV-On two separate occasions Peter commanded baptism. First in Acts 2:38 and again in Acts 10:48. Paul even re-baptised John's diciples in Acts 19:3-5. So, it was apparently an important part of the New Testament plan for salvation.

Mark 16:15
Here our Saviour gives commission to his disciples to congregate and gather a Christian church out of all nations, to go forth and preach the gospel to every creature; that is, to all reasonable creatures that are capable of it; not to the Jews only, but to the Gentiles also, without any distinction of country, age, or sex whatsoever.
Learn hence, That the apostles and first planters of the gospel had a commission from Christ to go amongst the Pagan Gentiles, without limitation or distinction, to instruct them in the saving mysteries of the gospel.

The second branch of their commission was, to baptize.

The encouraging promise made by Christ, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; that is, he that receiveth and embraceth the gospel preached by you, and thereupon becomes a proselyte and disciple of Christ, and receives baptism, the seal of the new covenant, shall for all his former sins receive pardon, and upon his perseverance obtain eternal life; but he that stands out obstinately and impenitently shall certainly be damned.

The two damning sins under the gospel, are infidelity and hypocrisy; not receiving Christ for their Lord and Saviour by some, or doing this feignedly by others.

Happy are they in whom the preaching of the gospel produceth such a faith as is the parent and principle of obedience; He that so believeth and is baptized, shall be saved.

Accordingly, some paraphrase the words thus: "He that believeth, and is baptized, shall be saved; that is, he shall, by virtue of the faith in baptism, be put into a state of salvation; so that if they continue in that faith, and do not wilfully recede from his baptismal covenant, he shall actually be saved."

Note farther, That they who hence conclude that infants are not capable of baptism, because they cannot believe, must also hence conclude, that they cannot be saved, because they cannot believe; for faith is more expressly required to salvation, than to baptism.

Note lastly, that though it be said, He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; it is not said, He that is not baptized, shall be damned: because it is not the want, but the contempt of baptism that damns, otherwise infants might be damned for their parents neglect.

 

[Imagican]

Foul Farley, Baptism was supposed to be the 'other' thread. Unfair to change the subject out of the blue like that.

And I offer this of both parties when it comes to 'shaking dust'. Let us discuss these issues instead of pointing fingers and getting angry at each other. It's all about love isn't it?

AV,

I am forced to admit that you are right in that all that you offered is finished. Christ certainly fulfilled the law and the prophets.

D46,

Mark 16:16 (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Does it get any more plain?

No, I don't believe that it does, but I think you may have missed it anyway. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. OK. But he that believeth not shall be damned. Here we have two sentences, right? Show me where in the second sentence it says ANYTHING about baptism.

 

[D46]

Show me where in the second sentence it says ANYTHING about baptism.

Why does it have to? He's already said "he who believes and is baptised shall be saved..." Does that not say that he who is not baptised shall not be saved? BTW that's not two sentences but a continuation as exposed by the semi-colon.

 

[farley]

Imagican stated...

Foul Farley, Baptism was supposed to be the 'other' thread. Unfair to change the subject out of the blue like that.

Apparently I've missed something, I have not a clue what you are talking about. I've even double-checked this forum...I still don't see a thread on baptism!?!

AV stated...

I hold to just the opposite - I believe if a man believes baptism is essential to salvation then I shake the dust off my feet.

AV, I'm sure that you have a good reason for seeing things the way that you do. I don't agree with your view on this, but hopefully, you have found scripture that allows you some measure of comfort while you are holding this view.

In Christ,

farley

 

[AVBunyan]

A I don't agree with your view on this, but hopefully, you have found scripture that allows you some measure of comfort while you are holding this view.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,

Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Nowhere is baptism or any work mentioned regarding justification.

Justification essentially means this...

God declares the sinner righteous on the basis of the finished work of Jesus Christ. God now looks at the saint as though he never sinned or ever will - positionally speaking. Practically we sin but positionally God has delcared the saint perfectly righteous in Christ for eternity.

That, my friend, is the manifold wisdom and grace of God.

Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
Eph 3:11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Farley and the rest - believe it or no my heart's desire is for folks to see the grace of God and that Christ did it all regarding justifcation. I know I come across hard and often times smart-mouthed but look past that and see that I'm trying to point people to the rest that is in Christ alone.

Most here are focusing on one's walk - I'm trying to focus on before the walk so true justification will make the walk afterwards much richer.

God bless

 

[farley]

AV,

I don't agree with your understanding/interpretation on most of the many positions which you've listed in the opening post of this thread.

I DO realize, however, that it would be fruitless for me to attempt to reason with you on these matters. I want to apologize for my recent comments, criticizing your views.

Hopefully, I will be able to use your future comments to help me decern the truths found in the scriptures.

In Christ,

farley

 

[thessalonian]

Mark 16:16 (KJV) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Does it get any more plain?

No, I don't believe that it does, but I think you may have missed it anyway. He that believes and is baptized shall be saved. OK. But he that believeth not shall be damned. Here we have two sentences, right? Show me where in the second sentence it says ANYTHING about baptism.

This is a very lame and nonsensical, illogical arguement. Let's say I am going fromm Minneapolis to New York with a stopoff in Chicago. If I say "I am going to New York with a layover in Chicago. Then later on I miss my flight in Minnapolis because my car stalls on the freeway, would I say I missed my layover in Chicago? I think I would just say "I missed my flight in Minneapolis". There would be no reason to speak of the layover in Chicago because it could not happen without catching my flight in Minneapolis. Same thing with Baptism. If you don't express some belief your not going to get baptized. There is no baptism without belief.

 

[AVBunyan]

I DO realize, however, that it would be fruitless for me to attempt to reason with you on these matters. I want to apologize for my recent comments, criticizing your views.

I'm humbled by your apology - thank you kindly.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

My apologies Farley, we had a rather 'heated' one on baptism in the Christian Talk and Advice. I thought you had been in on it with us. If not, sorry. I was kind of joking anyway, but sorry to accuse of something that you weren't a part of. It's a good one though, check it out: 'Water Baptism'
in 'Christian Talk and Advice'.

 

[thessalonian]

You don't understand Catholic theology on justification and sanctification my friend.

I've read your official doctrine, your official creeds, your official Council statements - and a whole lot more - I've debated your folks who reside within the Vatican itself - I know very well what your church teaches even if 99% of professing Catholics do not.

The Catholic Church teaches salvation by faith plus works so therfore they teach a false doctrine.

I guess I'm impressed or something. Tell me something, Jesus says:

Matt.7
[21] "Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Now let's look back to Isaiha:

[10] Hear the word of the LORD,
you rulers of Sodom!
Give ear to the teaching of our God,
you people of Gomor'rah!
[11] "What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the LORD;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of he-goats.
[12] "When you come to appear before me,
who requires of you
this trampling of my courts?
[13] Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies --
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
[14] Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me,
I am weary of bearing them.
[15] When you spread forth your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
[16] Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your doings
from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
[17] learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
defend the fatherless,
plead for the widow.
[18] "Come now, let us reason together,
says the LORD:
though your sins are like scarlet,
they shall be as white as snow;
though they are red like crimson,
they shall become like wool.
[19] If you are willing and obedient,
you shall eat the good of the land;
[20] But if you refuse and rebel,
you shall be devoured by the sword;
for the mouth of the LORD has spoken."
[21] How the faithful city
has become a harlot,
she that was full of justice!
Righteousness lodged in her,
but now murderers.
[22] Your silver has become dross,
your wine mixed with water.
[23] Your princes are rebels
and companions of thieves.
Every one loves a bribe
and runs after gifts.
They do not defend the fatherless,
and the widow's cause does not come to them.
[24] Therefore the Lord says,
the LORD of hosts,
the Mighty One of Israel:
"Ah, I will vent my wrath on my enemies,
and avenge myself on my foes.
[25] I will turn my hand against you
and will smelt away your dross as with lye
and remove all your alloy.

I know you like one line proof texts but I think the whole thing here is instructive. Is it no longer God's will to have the widow and the orphan cared for. Is this no longer the will of the Father, but to just have snow covered poop enter the kingdom of heaven? Are you a dispensationalist such that God's word in the Old Testament can be sliced and diced and piched and choosen from so that what cuts to the heart of what he desires for mankind is no longer valid? Seems that way to me. But the New Testament speaks of these things as well:

Jas.1
[27] Religion that is pure and undefiled before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Heb.10
[36] For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised.

No I think God still desires for us to do his will and that will is to care for the widow and the orphan. Oh, but I've heard many Protestants say, those passages in hebrews aren't for us. They were to the Jews. Bull. You will slice and dice the scritpures so that you can do away with God's plan. So that you can have your Godfare, I'm allready there and don't have to do nothin plan of salvation. You ignore the sheep and the goats. One of you told me, that's for the time of the tribulation. Not today. You should be embarrassed at the undermining of the very words of Christ our Savior. It is he who will give us the grace to do the thirty, sixty, or 100 fold. We can do nothing on our own but in him we can do all things.

Eph 3
[20]
Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think,
[21] to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations, for ever and ever. Amen.


God's power working in us, not just some declaration that God will no longer smell the stench of our sins, that is what has the power to save. When we do good we no longer do evil.

Romans
[4] Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
[5] But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
[6] For he will render to every man according to his works:
[7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;
[8] but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Wrath and fury, oh I suppose you will say that is just loss of reward. Go ahead, walk in your Gospel of snow covered poop and then go to the pearly gates and say Lord, Lord, or you can open yourself up to the power of God in your lives, work as if it all depended on you and pray as if it all depended on him and then stand before him and say, Lord I am humbled by your power that worked in my life and brought me through the trials and tribulations you sent for me to endure. (Heb 12). You send trials that I might overcome my wickedeness Lord, thank you. I praise your holy name for the power of your grace working in me to help bring others to salvation. For that was your will also, that "all men might be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth". Some say, oh God doesn't need us. Regardless, that is the way he chooses to bring the salvation of others about. But Godfare tells us we don't really have to be about his business.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox. Think I'll make a thread out of this. Go ahead AV and walk up to the pearly gates saying "lord, lord, I did nothing just like the Bible told me". He will say, which Bible?

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

Oh and by the way AV, I do praise God for my salvation, for the day which HE made me a new creation and forgave my sins. But HE did not just make me snow covered poop. He actually made me clean, "though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow". They were not just covered up but washed away. That's what the symbol of the water is all about. If you only wash away the outside layer of poop its still poop underneath. It's still unclean and we know that "nothing unclean shall enter". So I praise him greatly for what he did. He saved me "unto good works". He does not just overlook sin in our lives but actually gives us power over it, his grace, to fight and overcome sin. To strive to be holy as he is holy, to strive for perfection. He does not give us impossible commands except in the context that they are impossible for us. Yet by his grace we can do all things. I look fondly back to my day of salvation, my baptism and the baptism of my children (baptism now saves you). But salvation is not just some historic event. God didn't stop saving the Jews by just getting them out of pharo's grasp, he continued to save them by parting the red sea, providing mana for them, healing them of their ailments, and then leading them to the promised land. Salvation is an event, but also it continues throughout our lives. God saved us, he is saving us, and if we trust in him he will save us. But of course we can rebel just as Korah and Dathan did in the desert and they were swallowed up by the earth. Keep your eyes on that cross and what he did for you just like the Jews needed to do in order to be cured of their afflictions man. I know I'm alluding to alot of scriture here. I hope your keeping up in your Bible. If you need me to go back to chapter and verse posting I will.

Blessings

 

[xicali]

What Happened at the Cross of Calvary?

The Apostles of our lord in the days of His flesh, didn't know what really happened at calvary. Most Christians today have no clue as to what really went on at the cross and why.

The Apostle Paul is the only man that gives you the answer. That code [the answer] is concealed on his writings.

In order to find the code that activates the mind of Christ withing you is to:

1. Know about your pre-existence.
2. Why God Permitted sin to come into the world through a man.
3. The Deity of Christ Jesus.
4. The mind and spirit of man before the Cross.
5. The mind and spirit of man after the Cross.
6. What did our Lord and Savior destroyed at the Cross.
7. Why Paul had to wait to grow in Grace and bring us true Christianity.
8. Growing in Grace through the real Gospel of Christ, taught to Paul By the risen Christ.
9. The ministration of Angels to Believers to reign in life today.

Paul teaches you Step by step to gain revelation...after that every thing will make sense and you will understand and praise God for what He has done in us His beloved Church.

U R Blessed

Xicali

 

[xicali]

“What happened at the point of Salvation?â€Â

AV Asked...

The question was: “What happened at the point of Salvation?â€Â

The point of Salvation started before the foundation of the world for the elected only. It was made 'manifest' or binding at the Cross.

It was for the Jerusalem that comes from above for our citizenship is in heaven [The Church]. The cross was the door.

This has been taken place right after the cross to about 2000 years now.

A Great People like no other have started coming unto this world, equipped to fight the ‘good’ battle of faith. A lot of us are not called but many more are.

By the will of God your eyes have been opened and you have discovered that you came with this gift of salvation unto this world, for The Spirit gives testimony to our spirit that we are His.

“Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.†Acts 28:28

"...The Gentiles heard this [Paul’s teachings of Grace], they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed ." Acts 13:48

"...Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened , that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Man has not the Power to choose for his salvation because if it was up to him he would choose damnation.

Man has not the power to be bigger than the Almighty not even for a second and say something along these lines: Ok Lord let me think…I think I’ll choose…are you waiting Lord? You know the answer right Lord? Let me sin for a while than I’ll get back at you ok?

You think God would be so careless as to let you arrogantly postponed Him.
You think God need you to say 'Once' Saved Always Saved? You are Saved Always Saved. ONCE implies you had something to do with it some where in time.

We do not have free will to choose salvation is a gift of God.

"...Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, Tim. 1:19

U R Blessed :angel:

Xicali

 

[AVBunyan]

Re: “What happened at the point of Salvation?â€Â

AV Asked...

The question was: “What happened at the point of Salvation?â€Â

The point of Salvation started before the foundation of the world for the elected only. It was made 'manifest' or binding at the Cross.

You think God would be so careless as to let you arrogantly postponed Him.
You think God need you to say 'Once' Saved Always Saved? You are Saved Always Saved. ONCE implies you had something to do with it some where in time.

We do not have free will to choose salvation is a gift of God.

"...Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, Tim. 1:19

Thanks Xicali - nice work - refreshing to see God's grace and power lifted up.