I don't understand this "dual law" theory...

[wavy]

Nobody may have put it this way ("dual law"), specifically, but I've seen a few Sabbath promoters on these forums.

I don't get why people promote the ten commandments as some kind of "moral law", when the bible indicates no such thing. "Morality", used in the context of what man "feels" he ought to do is not an issue with Yahweh. Obedience in the issue.

The ten commandments stood as witness, I believe, that you were supposed to keep the whole book of Torah (which is why it is called the "testimony" meaning "witness").

The best case you could make for some form of "moral law" would be Romans 2:14-15.

However, that only speaks of those who do not have Torah, while we clearly do.

What people try to use is Romans 13:8-10 and Galatians 5:14 to prove some "moral" or some "love law", but this is a summation of the reason we obey Torah, not a setting aside of the rest of it. There's no other way to interpret it. Because these verses mention nothing about loving our God, Yahweh. These verses are in a certain context. They also try to use Messiah's words in Matthew 22:37-40 and Mark 12:29-31, but this proves the opposite of what most people want it to be. He says in both that the Torah and prophets "hang" on these two (meaning although the rest of it may not be as great, it still follows as a result) and that "there is no other commandment greater than these" (not "there is no other commandment").

Same thing in Luke 10:25-28. Messiah actually directs him to Torah to find these greater commandments. He doesn't say anything about replacement.

So if you are bent on keeping the sabbath, you must keep the rest of it too. The Torah is the entire Pentateuch (Genesis-Deuteronomy), not just the ten commandments.

 

[SputnikBoy]

For a little while, wavy, I thought that YOU believed in Sabbath observance. Am I to believe now that you don't? Your posts are great and insightful (and apparently scriptural) but you don't seem to know exactly where YOU stand on the issues. Or, maybe I'm not smart enough to pick up on your point perhaps ...?

 

[Guest]

Because the Torah was handed down to the Jews from God through Moses at Mount Sinai. To the jew this is an everlasting convenant they have with God. If you read the OT you will see where God says that this is to be an everlasting ordinance forever, Exodus 31:16

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The LORD said to Moses,
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"See, I have chosen Bezalel, son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah,
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and I have filled him with a divine spirit of skill and understanding and knowledge in every craft:
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in the production of embroidery, in making things of gold, silver or bronze,
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in cutting and mounting precious stones, in carving wood, and in every craft.
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As his assistant I have appointed Oholiab, son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan. I have also endowed all the experts with the necessary skill to make all the things I have ordered you to make:
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the meeting tent, the ark of the commandments with the propitiatory on top of it, all the furnishings of the tent,
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the table with its appurtenances, the pure gold lampstand with all its appurtenances, the altar of incense,
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the altar of holocausts with all its appurtenances, the laver with its base,
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1 the service cloths, the sacred vestments for Aaron the priest, the vestments for his sons in their ministry,
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the anointing oil, and the fragrant incense for the sanctuary. All these things they shall make just as I have commanded you."
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The LORD said to Moses,
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"You must also tell the Israelites: Take care to keep my sabbaths, for that is to be the token between you and me throughout the generations, to show that it is I, the LORD, who make you holy.
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Therefore, you must keep the sabbath as something sacred. Whoever desecrates it shall be put to death. If anyone does work on that day, he must be rooted out of his people.
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Six days there are for doing work, but the seventh day is the sabbath of complete rest, sacred to the LORD. Anyone who does work on the sabbath day shall be put to death.
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So shall the Israelites observe the sabbath, keeping it throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17
Between me and the Israelites it is to be an everlasting token; for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, but on the seventh day he rested at his ease."
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When the LORD had finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the commandments, the stone tablets inscribed by God's own finger.

This shows that if God came as Jesus and ended sabbath days, then God is contradicting himself, clearly in Exodus it says do it forever.

 

[farley]

DD,

I think that I recall that the Israelites, somewhere along the line, lost track of their "generations".

Most probably know that they are Hebrew, but none know even what tribe they are of! Which may impact their need to observe your verse 16.

And...what about the Gentiles?

In Christ,

farley

 

[wavy]

For a little while, wavy, I thought that YOU believed in Sabbath observance. Am I to believe now that you don't? Your posts are great and insightful (and apparently scriptural) but you don't seem to know exactly where YOU stand on the issues. Or, maybe I'm not smart enough to pick up on your point perhaps ...?

I do. Just not in shabbat observance alone apart from the rest of it.

And David, you are exactly right. The "it was for the Jews" excuse doesn't work. The new covenant was made with both Jews and Ephraim Israel (Jer. 31:31). So to say you don't have to do it because "it was for the Jews" means to say you are not part of the new covenant either. It's also to say you don't accept Messiah because he's Jewish and only came for the lost sheep of Israel (Mt. 15:24; this doesn't mean he can't save anyone, it just means you must join Israel).

 

[wavy]

DD,

I think that I recall that the Israelites, somewhere along the line, lost track of their "generations".

May have lost track of their tribal history, but that is why there is neither Jew or Gentile, because all or one in Messiah (one Israel; Gal 6:16; Eph. 2:11-22). Also, Ephraim's seed, collected into the ten tribes has become and is becoming a "melo ha-goyim" (fulness of the nations; Gen 48:18; Rom. 11:25). Also, read Is. 56:2-8.

Most probably know that they are Hebrew, but none know even what tribe they are of! Which may impact their need to observe your verse 16.

Nope.

And...what about the Gentiles?

Read above.

 

[Guest]

I never said that it shoudn't be observed today, but it is not. Paul pretty much ended anything that had to do with keeping laws or traditions. It's a shame, because God many times said keep the sabbath holy because I am holy. God created the world in 6 days and rested the 7th day, thats how important the sabbath day is, it took a roll in the creation of the world. The 21 century pastor doesn;t preach about sabbath.

 

[wavy]

I never said that it shoudn't be observed today, but it is not.

I know you didn't say that. I agreed with you. He said forever and he meant it.

Paul pretty much ended anything that had to do with keeping laws or traditions.

Nope. Not that you will (because it's long) but if you want to know my perspective on this, you can read my thread on "Torah Guarding For Christians". I'm making an apologetic for all the supposed "anti-law" passages in the NT. I've made about ten pages on Word, but I'm not even half done. 3 of the lessons are in that thread.

The 21 century pastor doesn;t preach about sabbath.

The 21st century preacher is in grave error. Establishing or teaching a church without Torah is like trying to build a plane that will fly without giving heed to the laws of physics.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I don't know where you've come from, wavy, but you're sure a breath of fresh air on the forum. I can't wait to see what happens when OC catches on that you've arrived! :turn-l:

 

[wavy]

I don't know where you've come from, wavy, but you're sure a breath of fresh air on the forum. I can't wait to see what happens when OC catches on that you've arrived! :turn-l:

Who is OC? Is he dangerous, lol?