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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
Idolatry
- Thread starter tjw
- Start date
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This shouldn't be turned into a RCC debate because even the Catholics do not use any of their representations in the sense of idolatry. The Catholic Church forbids such a practice. There should be no disagreements between the Catholics and the Protestants on this matter. Does one use a picture of a loved one as an idol because one uses the picture as a focal point for the person represented when such a one is out of the person's presence? Do Protestants use the cross on top of their steeples or in their Churches as an idol? Are the representations given by God related to the Tabernacle idols authorized by God? We only need common sense to see that a representation, or anything else, only becomes an idol when it replaces God. Otherwise it only has the nature that it has. And the representation that it has is generally predetermined.
I am not a Catholic and my wife is. But we have a large crucifix hanging in our home with my blessing as a representation of what Christ did for humanity through his death on the cross, and as a representation of the fact of Baptism into the death and burial of Christ, and as a representation of the fact of being in Christ. It is only a physical representation of what are important aspects of reality to me and my family. Is that an idol? Does it replace God? Does it replace Jesus Christ? Not to us. It is only a representation that continuously reminds us of the real reality. And when we are with our Lord Jesus Christ, such representations will no longer be needed. Because then we shall be face to face. Until then, the crucifix remains as a constance reminder to my family and anyone who comes into our home that we are a family that has everything to do with God and His Son Jesus Christ.
The crucifix is a representation that is common to Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. But there is no reason to denounce the representation by anyone who is not a Catholic or an Orthodox on that account. Not everything in Christianity is misused. Not everything in Christianity is just religion. There are some things there that are useful to all who are truly in Christ. Is the Bible an idol because it holds so much importance to so many people, many of whom are not Catholics or Orthodox? Is it a replacement for God?
JamesG
This shouldn't be turned into a RCC debate because even the Catholics do not use any of their representations in the sense of idolatry. The Catholic Church forbids such a practice. There should be no disagreements between the Catholics and the Protestants on this matter. Does one use a picture of a loved one as an idol because one uses the picture as a focal point for the person represented when such a one is out of the person's presence? Do Protestants use the cross on top of their steeples or in their Churches as an idol? Are the representations given by God related to the Tabernacle idols authorized by God? We only need common sense to see that a representation, or anything else, only becomes an idol when it replaces God. Otherwise it only has the nature that it has. And the representation that it has is generally predetermined.
I am not a Catholic and my wife is. But we have a large crucifix hanging in our home with my blessing as a representation of what Christ did for humanity through his death on the cross, and as a representation of the fact of Baptism into the death and burial of Christ, and as a representation of the fact of being in Christ. It is only a physical representation of what are important aspects of reality to me and my family. Is that an idol? Does it replace God? Does it replace Jesus Christ? Not to us. It is only a representation that continuously reminds us of the real reality. And when we are with our Lord Jesus Christ, such representations will no longer be needed. Because then we shall be face to face. Until then, the crucifix remains as a constance reminder to my family and anyone who comes into our home that we are a family that has everything to do with God and His Son Jesus Christ.
The crucifix is a representation that is common to Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. But there is no reason to denounce the representation by anyone who is not a Catholic or an Orthodox on that account. Not everything in Christianity is misused. Not everything in Christianity is just religion. There are some things there that are useful to all who are truly in Christ. Is the Bible an idol because it holds so much importance to so many people, many of whom are not Catholics or Orthodox? Is it a replacement for God?
JamesG
T
Theofilus
Guest
tjw said:
I talked to a Hindu once who told me that there was no conflict between Hinduism and the Bible. Ipointed out what I thought was the most obvious conflict - the fact that the Bible strictly forbids worshipping idols. He answered "We don't worship idols, we worship what the idols represent".
That got me thinking. Of course it is obvious that a statue moulded out of metal or carved out of wood isn't a god, but merely a representation of a god. Idolaters know that just as well as we do, and they don't worship the actual statue, but the god it represents. If a Christian, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant or anything else, bows before a statue of Jesus and prays, he is not praying to the statue, but to the one it represents. How is this different from what the Hindus are doing when they pray to the gods their idols represent?
In my opinion, there's no difference at all. If you face a cross, crucifix or statue or picture of Jesus when you pray or worship, then you are commiting idolatry. If you have such images in your home or hanging around your neck, then that doesn't have to be evil in and of itself, but those things shouldn't be your focal point when you are praying or worshipping. That would be idolatry.
T
Theofilus
Guest
jasoncran said:
That's not what I said.
Mike
Member
The only time I've seen the cross as being an issue is when Jehovah Witnesses get involved. It seems everyone else understands that it's not the cross itself, but what it represents.
One thing I've noticed between Catholics and protestants. The Catholics have the crucified Christ on the cross. All the others I've seen do not. They might have a cross with Christ superimposed with His arms stretched up (risen). I'm not making this a debate. I suppose I could see remembering how He died for us, but I'd rather remember how He concurred death for us.
I haven't seen these things idolized, but I suppose it's possible in the extreme.
One thing I've noticed between Catholics and protestants. The Catholics have the crucified Christ on the cross. All the others I've seen do not. They might have a cross with Christ superimposed with His arms stretched up (risen). I'm not making this a debate. I suppose I could see remembering how He died for us, but I'd rather remember how He concurred death for us.
I haven't seen these things idolized, but I suppose it's possible in the extreme.
At first I was only going to say,
What part of You shall not make for yourselves any graven image, or ANY likeness of ANY thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth do you not understand?
But then I realized that might seem a wee bit harsh. So I'll add Heb 11:1 to help soften the blow... Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
If you have sincere faith, you do not need an image of anything to "strengthen" your faith. Anyone who tells you different flies in the face of Scripture. Remember, God considers it treachery to have an image of ANYTHING. Deut 4:23-25 Beware for yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and you make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden you. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.... when you shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger
It would be different if He said anything EXCEPT an image of a cross, but He did not. He is very clear about this. We are supposed to be HOLY or SET APART from the heathen. How can we be set apart from the heathen if we worship the way they do..... by needing a breathless, sightless, motionless image to sustain our faith?
What part of You shall not make for yourselves any graven image, or ANY likeness of ANY thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth do you not understand?
But then I realized that might seem a wee bit harsh. So I'll add Heb 11:1 to help soften the blow... Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
If you have sincere faith, you do not need an image of anything to "strengthen" your faith. Anyone who tells you different flies in the face of Scripture. Remember, God considers it treachery to have an image of ANYTHING. Deut 4:23-25 Beware for yourselves, lest you forget the covenant of the Lord your God, which He made with you, and you make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the Lord thy God hath forbidden you. For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.... when you shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, to provoke him to anger
It would be different if He said anything EXCEPT an image of a cross, but He did not. He is very clear about this. We are supposed to be HOLY or SET APART from the heathen. How can we be set apart from the heathen if we worship the way they do..... by needing a breathless, sightless, motionless image to sustain our faith?
MaryBernard
Member
No, we just used these things to help us keep our mind focused.
T
Theofilus
Guest
No, it's run by people who are imperfect, just like the rest of us. They changed not only the look, but the software the forum runs on. Problems are inevitable with such a major change, and lost posts is only one that happened. Many people couldn't log in until they reset their passwords and some couldn't log in even after attempting to reset it. Some threads need a moderator to approve each post before it is visible. They are working to try to fix this.
Well, one thing is for sure, I'm not putting up any Asherah poles!
There are many Old Testament laws that were contextual to those times, but the "point" may still be relevant. If we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves... and all other laws are subservient. Bottom line on idolatry.... Put God First.
There are many Old Testament laws that were contextual to those times, but the "point" may still be relevant. If we love the Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength, and love our neighbor as ourselves... and all other laws are subservient. Bottom line on idolatry.... Put God First.
RobertMazar
Member
There are Catholic Churches that have a Crucifix above the Altar with the Risen Christ on it. The Catholic Church that I attend and belong to has such a Crucifix above the Altar.
Bob Carabbio
Member
I have a question about idolatry... Is a statue of Jesus, or a Cross/Crucifix worn as a necklace idolatry?
Maybe. It all depends on WHY you'd wear religious jewelry like that.
If it's worn as a "Talisman", or because you think it has "Spiritual" power then you're on shaky ground.
If it's worn as a Testimony, then probably not an issue.
Almost anything can be an "idol". Cigarettes were MY "idol" back in the '60s I worshiped them with a dedication much more consistent than what a lot of folks show for God. There was a time when Radio-Controlled model aircraft was an idol to me. They were what I relied on to make my happy. Cars can be idols, or "collections".
Maybe. It all depends on WHY you'd wear religious jewelry like that.
If it's worn as a "Talisman", or because you think it has "Spiritual" power then you're on shaky ground.
If it's worn as a Testimony, then probably not an issue.
Almost anything can be an "idol". Cigarettes were MY "idol" back in the '60s I worshiped them with a dedication much more consistent than what a lot of folks show for God. There was a time when Radio-Controlled model aircraft was an idol to me. They were what I relied on to make my happy. Cars can be idols, or "collections".