If we're Bible believing Christians why do some of us argue the Bible isn't to be believed when it says....

[FreeGrace]

Just as the scripture points out, those who hear, and know, and follow Him will receive eternal life.

Please quote or at least cite any verse that says this.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Nope. v.27 does not form a condition for never perishing. It's a description of His sheep. There is no "as long as..." or "only if..." clauses anywhere to be found.

Your view is what is called eisegesis, defined as: "an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses theinterpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning ofthe text" from www.dictionary.com.

And I give them eternal life
And is the conjunction that ties the condition to the promise of eternal life.

And I AGREE!!! But the condition for never perishing is simply receiving eternal life, which it seems you've missed.

iow, v.28a is the condition for never perishing.

First comes the life of being led by Him, “hear and follow”.

Then comes the giving of eternal life, which comes at the resurrection of life.

Neither the language, context, or grammar supports this claim.

 

[Eugene]

You're the one making the statement that all believers is given the INDWELLING Holy Spirit. Can you give scripture verifying that?

First, we know that when Gentiles initially believed in Christ, they did not immediately receive the Spirit, as noted in Acts 10

Maybe I'm missing something, but if ALL believers are given the indwelling Holy Spirit, why is it they did not immediately receive the Spirit?

Yes, I can. First, we know that when Gentiles initially bleieved in Christ, they did not immediately receive the Spirit, as noted in Acts 10 and when Paul found 12 disciples. in both examples, they ultimately did receive the Spirit.

Again I ask, why not at the first if they were believers and all believers receive the Holy Spirit?

Second, in Paul's epistle to the Galatian believers, written approx 49-55 AD, he asked this in ch 3:2, I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
So, by this time, the Spirit was received when one believed.

Are you saying that they must believe in the Holy Spirit to receive Him? I always was of the belief that we must believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved, and then we we could receive the Holy Spirit.

But, since there is disagreement, where does the NT teach WHEN one does finally receive the Holy Spirit, if not at faith in Christ?

Here we come again to Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, . . . that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Are they saved at this point?) Yes ___ No ___
Why aren't they filled with the Holy Ghost yet then? And then what was the sign that they had received Him?

 

[FreeGrace]

Maybe I'm missing something, but if ALL believers are given the indwelling Holy Spirit, why is it they did not immediately receive the Spirit?

The Bible does not answer this. But the fact is that Gentile believers didn't initially receive the Spirit when they believed, unlike the Jews, who did.

Again I ask, why not at the first if they were believers and all believers receive the Holy Spirit?

Again, the Bible doesn't explain why. But I gave 2 examples of Gentile believers who didn't immediately receive the Spirit when they believed.

I said this:
"Second, in Paul's epistle to the Galatian believers, written approx 49-55 AD, he asked this in ch 3:2, I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?
Gal 3:5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?
So, by this time, the Spirit was received when one believed."

Are you saying that they must believe in the Holy Spirit to receive Him? I always was of the belief that we must believe on the Lord Jesus to be saved, and then we we could receive the Holy Spirit.

No, I am not saying that. Gal 4:2,5 seem clear to me. Paul's question was about when his audience of Gentile believers received the Spirit; that is, when they believed. That's what I was saying.

Here we come again to Act 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, . . . that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (Are they saved at this point?) Yes ___ No ___

Yes. I believe they were saved before they were baptized.

Why aren't they filled with the Holy Ghost yet then? And then what was the sign that they had received Him?

#1 - Scholars describe the early church as in a "transition" period. One didn't just go from temple worship to some 1st Baptist church on a corner.

#2 - for Acts 19:2, the sign was speaking in other languages. Same for the household of Cornelius. But notice that the order of water baptism and speaking in tongues was the opposite between these 2 groups.

Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said,
47 “Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

What about way back in Acts 8? Those Samaritans were baptized but didn't receive the Spirit until hands were laid on them.
12 But when they believed Philip as he proclaimed the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

This is what then happened:
14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to Samaria.
15When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit,
16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

 

[JLB]

Please quote or at least cite any verse that says this.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

 

[JLB]

Nope. v.27 does not form a condition for never perishing. It's a description of His sheep.

Exactly. The sheep of His that end up receding eterna life.

 

[JLB]

Unfortunately my question was not answered. Dodged, perhaps.

Did you lose salvation those "4 times" or not? yes or no.

If a Christian becomes lost, are the found or lost?


JLB

 

[JLB]

Unfortunately my question was not answered. Dodged, perhaps.

Did you lose salvation those "4 times" or not? yes or no.

I'll just generalize my second question. If salvation can be lost, can it be regained? If so, how so? Please be specific.

I suppose the reason for dodging my question is that there are no verses anywhere in the Bible about regaining salvation. Nothing at all.

That’s because we receive the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith, when Jesus returns and we come forth in the resurrection of life.

Scripture references -

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

• so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Until then we have faith in Christ for salvation.

Your question assumes something that has not yet taken place.


What can happen to Christians, in this life, is they can wander from Him and become lost.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.


A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost, can indeed turn back to Him and be forgiven and reconciled back to God.


If a Christian becomes lost they are in danger of eternal death, just as a sinner is.


19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


These scriptures must be reconciled in any study of the doctrine of salvation.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Your post:
'Just as the scripture points out, those who hear, and know, and follow Him will receive eternal life.'

I asked:
"Please quote or at least cite any verse that says this"

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

Neither verse says what was claimed in your post. Not even close.

So, there are NO verses that say or support your claim.

What v.28 does say is that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Again, v.27 contains NO WORDS that indicate a condition for never perishing.

And to claim that "following Him" is a condition for receiving eternal life is false, as Jesus clearly and plainly taught that those who believe HAVE (as in POSSESS eternal life in these verses:
John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27.

So, since there is disagreement on that point, the onus is on you to address each of these verses with exegesis and grammar to show that they don't teach that those who believe have eternal life.

If that isn't done, there is no reason to accept your premise about having to follow Him for eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"v.27 does not form a condition for never perishing. It's a description of His sheep."

Exactly. The sheep of His that end up receding eterna life.

There is NOTHING that resembles a "condition" for never perishing in v.27.

Here is how the verse would look IF following Him were a condition for never perishing.

v.27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
v.28 I give them eternal life, and AS LONG AS THEY KEEP FOLLOWING ME they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Or, 28 I give them eternal life, and IF they continue following Me, they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Whawt hasn't been shown in your theory is any condition involving following Him for never perishing.

The issue here is in never perishing. The ONLY WAY one will never perish is to receive eternal life.

That is eternal security in a simple and straightforward sentence.

No one has shown otherwise.

 

[FreeGrace]

That’s because we receive the salvation of our soul, at the end of our faith, when Jesus returns and we come forth in the resurrection of life.

When is the "end of our faith"? Specifically.

Scripture references -

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

• so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

• 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Until then we have faith in Christ for salvation.

The failure to properly understand 'end of faith' leads down a rabbit hole. It sure doesn't mean end of one's life, as it seems you're suggesting/hinting/insinuating.

The Greek word means "completion". When does that occur? At the moment when one actually places their faith in Christ for salvation. Which is also the same time one actually POSSESSES eternal life, as John 3:15,16,36, 5:24, 6:47 and 11:25-27 very clearly say, and you've not addressed at all.

Your question assumes something that has not yet taken place.

To the contrary, your assumption of what "end of faith" means is faulty.

What can happen to Christians, in this life, is they can wander from Him and become lost.

Your opinion has never been substantiated from Scripture. It remains only a theory, an opinion. Not to be accepted.

What is true is that Christians can wander from Him. But since every believer has the Holy Spirit indwelling them (John 14:16, Gal 3:2,5), and this sealing is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption (Eph 1:14), and that God cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13), there is NO WAY that a Christian can become lost.

But I'll tell you what can be lost; fellowship, a concept that seems to be quite unfamiliar to a whole lot of people.

Failure to discern between fellowship and relationship leads to all kinds of false doctrines.

Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Yes, the condition of EVERY human being at birth. Spiritually dead.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

Once saved, always sealed (Eph 1;14), shall never perish (John 10:28).

A Christian who wanders away and becomes lost, can indeed turn back to Him and be forgiven and reconciled back to God.

I asked in a previous post how one who becomes lost gets saved again. Please answer.

If a Christian becomes lost they are in danger of eternal death, just as a sinner is.

So then, it seems in your view, what Christ did on the cross ain't enough then.

 

[SytheF]

Please quote or at least cite any verse that says this.


Nope. v.27 does not form a condition for never perishing. It's a description of His sheep. There is no "as long as..." or "only if..." clauses anywhere to be found.

Your view is what is called eisegesis, defined as: "an interpretation, especially of Scripture, that expresses theinterpreter's own ideas, bias, or the like, rather than the meaning ofthe text" from www.dictionary.com.


And I AGREE!!! But the condition for never perishing is simply receiving eternal life, which it seems you've missed.

iow, v.28a is the condition for never perishing.


Neither the language, context, or grammar supports this claim.

With all respect, my experience on other sites tells me to tell you you will never change the mind of those who hold faith in conditional salvation.

 

[SytheF]

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

That scripture declares in sum total all of what Jesus died to deliver as his eternal promise under the Father's grace. Eternal irrevocable salvation. That isn't what you defend here.


Do you actually believe you have to labor to keep your salvation or you'll lose it? Edited reba

 

[SytheF]

1. *Salvation is Eternal
2. *God calls women to ministry
3. *We can never lose our eternal life
4. *________________________insert your favorite here.

First I just want to throw this in because of my finding when searching for Politically Incorrect meme's for the other thread here.
Did you know there is a search result for Christianity Meme?
Never thought I'd find that but I did by accident. Or God's leaning, one or the other.
Now to answer your question.
#1 is a biggie on forums like this. Inevitably it is discussed over and over again. With some like our friend JLB who insist Salvation isn't eternal but is something that can be lost by either our choice or God's.

In future , as if this could help and I am hopeful, there are only two verses that need be shared to demonstrate Salvation is everything God promised. Which is, eternal no matter what. Put in order to provide context in the simplicity of it. First, Ephesians 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. And then, Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[SytheF]

That first one needed to be by itself so as not to be confused with your other points. And I know what you mean because I've encountered people who argue these things. There's a pastor on TV that tells people watching if they're in a church with a woman pastor they're not in a "holiness" church.
Of course #3 is covered in the Ephesians and Roman's chapter that I posted for question #1.

Now, women can't be called to ministry.
Do we think on the day of Pentecost the Holy Spirit did not descend upon women gathered?
If we're all one in Christ, Romans 12:5, how can one gender be unqualified to be called by God to teach?
Romans 16:1-2 - I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:

 

[eddif]

John 18:8 kjv
Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9 He did this to fulfill his own statement: "I did not lose a single one of those you have given me."

I don’t think this is speaking of eternal life.

Redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

When is the "end of our faith"? Specifically.

When the manifestation of the the thing you are hoping for is realized.

That’s when faith for something ends, when you obtain the thing you are hoping for.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1

If you have faith for healing, then when you obtain the healing you have faith for, you no longer have the substance of the healing you are hoping for, but you have obtained the actual healing.


Example:

20 And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. 21 For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” 22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour.
Matthew 9:20-22

• For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

Here in verse 21, the woman with the issue of blood had faith. She was not yet healed.

It was when she moved through the crowd and actually did the work of touching the hem of His garment, that the substance of the thing she hoped for became the reality she obtained, which was her healing.

That’s when her faith ended, and the manifestation of the thing she was hoping was obtained.


Likewise, when Jesus returns on the last Day, and we come forth in the resurrection of life, we will have obtained the the substance we are hoping for.



JLB

 

[JLB]

I believe this is a faulty premise, without a shred of evidence from the Bible.

So the question cannot be answered. No one has ever shown that any Christian has ever become lost.

According to forum rules, Scripture is required to support claims. This has not been done. Please comply for credibility.

19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

• Brethren; James is writing to the Church and addressing brethren.

• if anyone among you wanders from the truth; again anyone among you refers to Christian brothers.

• let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death; eternal death

• The truth is clear, that a Christian can indeed become lost by wandering from the truth, and be considered as a sinner in need of repentance, or be lost; lose their soul in eternal death.

Jesus taught the same thing:

• Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

• Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.

Lost Sheep:
I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:7

Lost Coin:
Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Luke 15:10


Prodigal Son
It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32




JLB

 

[Eugene]

Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

And you would say that is not the manner of receiving the Holy Spirit today? And again, please refer to scripture. Thanks.

Sorry Brother FreeGrace, I just found this reply hanging here evidently having not hit the Post Reply button.