Immortality

[Featherbop]

Nope.

 

[serapha]

Do you believe that the human soul is immortal and non-matter?

Hi there!


It doesn't matter what "I believe." What matters is what the Word of God teaches, and the starting point concerning the immortality of the soul is to understand the word "soul" in Hebrew.

The word "soul" in Hebrew is not a word but a concept, and the same is true in Greek, it is a concept.


from Vines (Cremer) from Notes on Thessalonians by Hogg and Vine, pp 205-207

(Greek)

Body.... Soma
Spirit.... pneuma
Soul... psuche'

The language of Hebrews 4:12 suggests the extreme difficulty of distinguishing between the soul and the spirit, alike in their nature and in their activities. Generally speaking the spirit is the higher, the soul the lower element. The spirit may be recognized as the life principle bestowed on man by God, the soul as the resulting life constituted in the individual, the body being the material organism animated by soul and spirit.


(Hebrew)

The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms "body" and "soul" , which are really Greek and Latin in origin. The Hebrew contrasts two other concepts which are not found in the Greek and Latin tradition: "the inner self" and "the outer appearance" or, as viewed in a different context, "what one is to oneself" as opposed to "what one appears to be to one's observers." The inner person is nepes, while the outer person, or reputation, is sem, most commonly translated "name"

The soul then is "the inner self" The soul is separate from the spirit. The soul is the will, the intellect, emotions, thoughts, decision-making ability, or discernment.


Now, concerning the immortality of the soul....


Again, not what "I believe" but what the Word of God teaches...


The word for immortal is "aphthartos" which is also translatated, at times, as "incorruptible".... meaning... imperishable, not decaying...

Webster's defines "imperishable" as that which will not die or decay.



So... where is the word "aphthartos" used?


1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible (imperishable, undying), and we shall be changed.



1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible (perishable, dying) seed, but of incorruptible (imperishable, undying), by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


I guess being born again of undying seed.... makes my soul immortal.


~serapha~

 

[nikolai_42]

Mortal soul, immortal spirit.

Serapha's close...but I think he fails to complete his look at the scriptures. The Old Testament seems to distinguish between soul and spirit as well as the New Testament. And while one may have their soul preserved, it is inherently mortal. As it says in Ezekiel AND Isaiah:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And in Ecclesiastes...

The spirit returns to God who gave it.

Paul, in one of his letters to the Thessalonians does encourage them by praying that their spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless. As serapha pointed out, Hebrews speaks of the division between soul and spirit as being one that is only discernible by the Spirit of God. The soul of man is emotional, whereas the spirit given to man is what is necessary to communicate with God. For God is spirit, and spirit communicates with spirit. That's one reason we must worship God in spirit - because that is what He is.

 

[Quath]

The problem with the soul or spirit is that we behave in a materialistic fashion. For example, Mary Jackson wasraised a devout baptist and was valedictorian of her high school. She went to an Ivy League university to become a pediatrician. Her first two years, she made deans list.

However, in her junior year, she started to get F's and D's. She started sleeping around with men she met at bars. She ended up getting pneumonia and went to see a doctor. The doctor revealed that she had AIDS. She said she could not understand why she was sleeping around, but she couldn't help herself.

Since she had been missing her periods and was not pregnant, the doctor referred her to a neurologist. He noticed she had lost her long term goals, was short tempered, easily frustrated and apt to sleep around.

So she was diagnosed with environmental dependency syndrome. Basically, her environment prompted her to do stuff. Give her a pen and paper and she just writes her name. Giver her a comb and she will brush her hair. An MRI scan showed a brain tumor. The tumor was removed and she went back to her old self.

So our personality is materialistic. Grow a tumor in the right spot and you can change from a good church going lady to a dirty slut. A 40-year old schoolteacher turned into a pedophile until his tumor was removed.

So does the soul reflect the body or the body reflect the soul? If the soul reflects the body, then it can be harmed by physical means. Or in other wordsm the soul is physical. If the body reflects the soul, then does the soul get tumors that the body also gets?

This brings about hard theological questions. If Mary had died when she had the tumor and had turned away from God, should she have gone to hell? Can a tumor make you lose God or be unable to find him?

There are amy, many other problems with the concept of a soul. Basically, there is no purpose for a soul except to be a recorder (like a VHS tape or CD). Everything else has been shown to be physical.

Quath

 

[Henry]

nikolai_42

May I ask what you think it means to die? Is it to stop existing alltogether, or is it a state of existance?

I believe that death, the second death is the eternal separation from God. Not none existance.

Quath

You totally have the wrong view point all together there guy. Man are off>>> You are the problem not the concept but you lack of ability to grasp it, but then again you are unregerate you do not have what it takes to know the things of God.

 

[serapha]

Re: Mortal soul, immortal spirit.

Serapha's close...but I think he fails to complete his look at the scriptures. The Old Testament seems to distinguish between soul and spirit as well as the New Testament. And while one may have their soul preserved, it is inherently mortal. As it says in Ezekiel AND Isaiah:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

And in Ecclesiastes...

The spirit returns to God who gave it.

Paul, in one of his letters to the Thessalonians does encourage them by praying that their spirit, soul and body be preserved blameless. As serapha pointed out, Hebrews speaks of the division between soul and spirit as being one that is only discernible by the Spirit of God. The soul of man is emotional, whereas the spirit given to man is what is necessary to communicate with God. For God is spirit, and spirit communicates with spirit. That's one reason we must worship God in spirit - because that is what He is.

Hi there!




The "soul" and "spirit" are differnt parts of the trichotomy of man.


In comparing nephesh (soul) and rauch (spirit).

Nephsesh refers to that which breathes and to the mind, desire, and emotions. Soul refers to the animating principle which feels, desires and can attain everlasting life with God.

Rauch refers to that which breaths and the part of us which experiences emotions and is responsible for mental acts.

I would present verses which use both spirit and soul in the same verse.

1 Sam 1:15
And Hannah answered and said, “No, my Lord, I am a woman of sorrowful spirit. I have drunk neither wine for intoxicating drink, but have poured out my soul before the Lord.â€Â

There are scriptural verses in Job 7:11 and Isaiah 26:9 which use both the spirit and soul in the text, but these two verses are synthetic parallelisms, which is explained that in Hebrew, a word will not be repeated in the apposing statement of the same sentence. So I would void the use of these two verses on that basis.

However, in Luke 1:46-47, in Greek,
And Mary said: “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

In 1 Cor 15:45
And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being (soul)†The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1 Thes 5:23
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole, spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

From these verses, we can conclude that the whole person is three parts with a distinctin between soul and spirit or else Paul would have worded it differently. God distintuished the human spirit from the human soul.

The spirit returns to God who gave it.

Agreed, for the "spirit" is the "breath of life"

The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

The soul that sinneth shall die ... the second death. That aligns with other scriptures in the Bible, see Revelation 20 and the White Throne judgment.

 

[Featherbop]

The problem with the soul or spirit is that we behave in a materialistic fashion. For example, Mary Jackson wasraised a devout baptist and was valedictorian of her high school. She went to an Ivy League university to become a pediatrician. Her first two years, she made deans list.

However, in her junior year, she started to get F's and D's. She started sleeping around with men she met at bars. She ended up getting pneumonia and went to see a doctor. The doctor revealed that she had AIDS. She said she could not understand why she was sleeping around, but she couldn't help herself.

Since she had been missing her periods and was not pregnant, the doctor referred her to a neurologist. He noticed she had lost her long term goals, was short tempered, easily frustrated and apt to sleep around.

So she was diagnosed with environmental dependency syndrome. Basically, her environment prompted her to do stuff. Give her a pen and paper and she just writes her name. Giver her a comb and she will brush her hair. An MRI scan showed a brain tumor. The tumor was removed and she went back to her old self.

So our personality is materialistic. Grow a tumor in the right spot and you can change from a good church going lady to a dirty slut. A 40-year old schoolteacher turned into a pedophile until his tumor was removed.

So does the soul reflect the body or the body reflect the soul? If the soul reflects the body, then it can be harmed by physical means. Or in other wordsm the soul is physical. If the body reflects the soul, then does the soul get tumors that the body also gets?

This brings about hard theological questions. If Mary had died when she had the tumor and had turned away from God, should she have gone to hell? Can a tumor make you lose God or be unable to find him?

There are amy, many other problems with the concept of a soul. Basically, there is no purpose for a soul except to be a recorder (like a VHS tape or CD). Everything else has been shown to be physical.

Quath

You hit a very good point there, quath. If there is an immortal soul, that is non-matter, and seperate from the physical body, and/or independant from it, then why do things like this happen?

i had to change my veiw of a soul seperate from the body, and then I had to change to not a supernatural soul altogether. If a supernatural soul does exist, then since it has (supposedly) a physical connection(brain), then there would be evidence of its existance. It doesn't work to say: "oh well, we have the bilbie it tells us that we are an immortal soul."

Evidence tells us that this is a false belief. Some people seem to think if you don't believe in the soul, thne you aren't a christian, and don't believe in God or something. I'm sure there are many christians that don't believe in the human soul as most other cfhristians do, some people will actually consider evidence before having a belief. I'm one of them.

But anyway quath, I'm glad you brought it up. Its a good point, and we all mustn't be afraid to adress and consider these things.

_____

I think anyone who believes in a supernatural, non-matter, independant of body, soul, needs to look at the evidence and seriously reconsider that belief.

 

[Featherbop]

nikolai_42

May I ask what you think it means to die? Is it to stop existing alltogether, or is it a state of existance?

I believe that death, the second death is the eternal separation from God. Not none existance.

Quath

You totally have the wrong view point all together there guy. Man are off>>> You are the problem not the concept but you lack of ability to grasp it, but then again you are unregerate you do not have what it takes to know the things of God.

Are you going to respond to his arguement or keep saying he doesn't "understand things of God."?

 

[serapha]

The problem with the soul or spirit is that we behave in a materialistic fashion. For example, Mary Jackson wasraised a devout baptist and was valedictorian of her high school. She went to an Ivy League university to become a pediatrician. Her first two years, she made deans list.

...There are amy, many other problems with the concept of a soul. Basically, there is no purpose for a soul except to be a recorder (like a VHS tape or CD). Everything else has been shown to be physical.

Quath

Hi there!

Just a couple of points.... There is a purpose for the soul, and it is to fulfill the eternal state of man. But then, that requires that one believe

1) In God.
2) In God's Word



And secondly, the soul is not the brain. You cited a disease that affected the personality because of a tumor in the brain. Okay.

The soul is not the personality either.


I said, the soul is the inner man.... the totality of the inner man, intangible. The brain may relay the intelligence, the emotions, the thoughts, the decision-making ability, and the discernment, but it is not the "physical" of the brain, but the intangible. After all, one may not touch a thought, right?

The soul is the will, the intellect, emotions, thoughts, decision-making ability, or discernment.

The spirit may be recognized as the life principle bestowed on man by God, the soul as the resulting life constituted in the individual, the body being the material organism animated by soul and spirit.

You stated,

So does the soul reflect the body or the body reflect the soul? If the soul reflects the body, then it can be harmed by physical means. Or in other wordsm the soul is physical. If the body reflects the soul, then does the soul get tumors that the body also gets?

Neither. The body is nothing but an earthly vessel. The soul is the "intantible, unseen vessel" that lives within the earthly vessel. BTW... communications are not a part of the soul.... the spirit is the "communications" of man. The soul is not dependent upon the body, for the soul is immortal. The body is dependent upon the soul.


So

our personality is materialistic.

No. I haven't touched a personality lately.

If Mary had died when she had the tumor and had turned away from God, should she have gone to hell? Can a tumor make you lose God or be unable to find him?

Of course, she would not have gone to hell. Mary broke the fellowship with God, but the relationship with God cannot be broken. If God is your Father, He remains your Father. You might not walk and talk with God, but He is still your Father by the redemptive nature through Christ. The fellowship with God can be restored any time one is repentent and turns back to God.






I hope this clarifities your questions.

~serapha~

 

[serapha]

Featherbop

You hit a very good point there, quath. If there is an immortal soul, that is non-matter, and seperate from the physical body, and/or independant from it, then why do things like this happen?

i had to change my veiw of a soul seperate from the body, and then I had to change to not a supernatural soul altogether. If a supernatural soul does exist, then since it has (supposedly) a physical connection(brain), then there would be evidence of its existance. It doesn't work to say: "oh well, we have the bilbie it tells us that we are an immortal soul."

Evidence tells us that this is a false belief. Some people seem to think if you don't believe in the soul, thne you aren't a christian, and don't believe in God or something. I'm sure there are many christians that don't believe in the human soul as most other cfhristians do, some people will actually consider evidence before having a belief. I'm one of them.

But anyway quath, I'm glad you brought it up. Its a good point, and we all mustn't be afraid to adress and consider these things.

_____

I think anyone who believes in a supernatural, non-matter, independant of body, soul, needs to look at the evidence and seriously reconsider that belief.

Hi there!

Let me explain this to you....

If a supernatural soul does exist, then since it has (supposedly) a physical connection(brain), then there would be evidence of its existance.

The soul is not the brain, you consider that to be the "physical connection" to the body, but there is no physical connection for the soul to the body; the soul is more of the "mind" of the person.

Think of siamese twins connected at the head, and through the brain. They may share a portion of the brain, but they still have independent will, intellect, and emotions. If you maintain that the brain is the physical connection, then with the example of siamese twins, the two people would have the same "soul" or intellect or will, or thoughts.

That is proven not to be true; so while we view the "brain" to be the physical connection, it is not. It is a supernatural soul.

Evidence tells us that this is a false belief.

What evidence would this be?

Some people seem to think if you don't believe in the soul, thne you aren't a christian, and don't believe in God or something. I'm sure there are many christians that don't believe in the human soul as most other cfhristians do, some people will actually consider evidence before having a belief. I'm one of them.

My friend,

Christians do believe in a soul. "Some" believe that the soul and the spirit are the same. But all Christians believe in a "soul" which is redeemded through Christ to everlasting life. That is why they call themselves "Christians".


~serapha~

 

[Free]

Here are a couple of the verses that Featherbop refuses to deal with:

1 Sam. 28:11,13-16, "11 Then the woman said, "Whom shall I bring up for you?" And he said, "Bring up Samuel for me."...13 The king said to her, "Do not be afraid; but what do you see?" And the woman said to Saul, "I see a divine being coming up out of the earth." 14 He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage. 15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do." 16 Samuel said...."

Rev. 6:9-11, "When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also. "

Rev. 20:4, "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years."

According to Scripture, humans have immortal souls.

It doesn't work to say: "oh well, we have the bilbie it tells us that we are an immortal soul."

This explains a lot. What is a "bilbie" anyway?

Evidence tells us that this is a false belief.

What evidence?

 

[Henry]

Featherbop

You are joking right, quath is a unregerated none beleiver, his argument has no vality with me what so ever, he simple does not know what he is talking, and has no right to opinions about things he can not understand.

In short I could care less what Quath thinks.

And by the way, the bible says that quath does not know the things of God, not me. I merley concure with the word.

1 Corinthians 2:14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Featherbop]

Featherbop

You are joking right, quath is a unregerated none beleiver, his argument has no vality with me what so ever, he simple does not know what he is talking, and has no right to opinions about things he can not understand.

In short I could care less what Quath thinks.

And by the way, the bible says that quath does not know the things of God, not me. I merley concure with the word.

1 Corinthians 2:14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

You can either use the Bible to support what you want, or you can address the evidence that you belief about the soul is wrong.

Saying that he doesn't understand the things of God is not an arguement you can use to be credible. Give me some evidnece that you are correct, and then we can talk.

 

[Featherbop]

Seraphra: If humans do have an immortal, supernatural soul, then its closest connection is the brain.

We know that everything that makes up what and who a person is, is dependant upon the brain.

If the soul has nothing to do with the brain, then you are making no sense. We know for a fact that who and what people are is brain. It is the soul of man. It is one of God's most wonderful creations. Amazing in its complexity. The soul is not really the brain, I should say, but is dependant for existance upon it. It is unseperatable.

I believe in the soul. I just have a veiw of it that agrees with the evidence of its existance. You have to give me credible evidence to change my view. I'm waiting. I am very patient.

 

[serapha]

Seraphra: If humans do have an immortal, supernatural soul, then its closest connection is the brain.

We know that everything that makes up what and who a person is, is dependant upon the brain.

If the soul has nothing to do with the brain, then you are making no sense. We know for a fact that who and what people are is brain. It is the soul of man. It is one of God's most wonderful creations. Amazing in its complexity. The soul is not really the brain, I should say, but is dependant for existance upon it. It is unseperatable.

I believe in the soul. I just have a veiw of it that agrees with the evidence of its existance. You have to give me credible evidence to change my view. I'm waiting. I am very patient.

Hi there!


There is a short article here...


http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/012/30.74.html

 

[serapha]

We know for a fact that who and what people are is brain.

and where would I read that fact?

We know that everything that makes up what and who a person is, is dependant upon the brain.

That is not necessarily true. The "spirit" is the communication and it is neither the "who"or the "what" of the brain.

You have to give me credible evidence to change my view.

Without a "brain", the physical body can be made to function by machines. The "brain" doesn't need to tell you to breath, a machine can do that for you. One doesn't "have" to think to function. One doesn't have to tell the heart to pump blood, that can be done by machine.


A machine cannot replace the soul.


Many times, in surgeries involving the brain, portions of the brain will be removed, yet, the soul remain unaffect, still a "whole" soul.

They are independent... the brain and the soul.

I explained that with the example of the siamese twins. If they were sharing a portion of the same brain, they would still have separate souls.... different intellects, different thoughts, different emotions.

What evidence do you need to see to know that the soul and brain are different from each other?




~serapha~

 

[Featherbop]

Evidence against the soul:

note: I will only debate with those that will answer to the evidence.

:If the soul is immortal, and furthermore, non-matter, then there is no way it can exist, or be conscious. The soul is person. Existance is dependant on the ability to exist, and have experiances of any kind. We know that there is nothing that is conscious, and has experiances if it does not have a brain. A rock is not aware, it does not experiance or have memories, it does not live. etc. A soul that can exist without a brain or other device, cannot exist. It has no way of recording experiances, it cannot store memories, it cannot be alive, it cannot be conscious.

This one of the absolute best arguements against the false belief of a supernatural, immortal soul.

_____

It has been concluded that thoughts, and consciousness exist through "brain waves". Without these, there is no thought, nor consciousness. When these things stop functioning, the only reasonable conclusion is that the 'mind', 'soul', etc, has stopped, it doesn't function anymore, it doesn't exist.

_____

If there are supernatural, souls of people that exist as conscious beings, that we are never contacted by them. There is no comunication between us and them. There are people that claim that there are ghosts of people, however, these are most likely demons, and not peoples souls trying to contact us from heaven.

_____

God's greatest creation. The human brain. Such a complex, amazingly wonderful invention. Certainly God's greates physical creation. Formed from non-living matter, dust, into a supercomputer that allows for a soul's(person's) existance. What a waste is would be if God were to not use this invention anymore, after people die. If God reserects those who are saved, and gives them a body, He would most certainly give them a brain in which to exist. To not do so would be jst like an inventor coming up with a wonderful creation, but throwing it away, never to use it again.

_____

The spirit. The force that is life. Animation, homeostasis, energy to be alive, whatever it is, we know that the combination of our spirit and our body form us, a living soul. When we die, it leaves our body, our body is dead matter, and we are a dead soul. We don't exist conscious, and alive. We are dead. A dead soul.

 

[Vic C.]

And the references to your post would be?...

 

[Featherbop]

And the references to your post would be?...

Logical deductions, common knowledge, and knowledge that the mind, soul, etc, is depndant upon the brain function.

_____

Serapha: It is common knowledge that without the brain, one cannot be conscious. Their consciousness wouldn't exist without the "soul's machine". We know that all the things that make up a persons who they are is all in the brain. There is no other organ or body part that is used to contain what the brain does. Without it, there is no conscioussness.

and also, what do you mean, the spirit is the communication? It is the life energy or force that exists in living things. That makes them alive. I've never heard that it is the communication.

I don't understand your point about that some body processes can be controlled by machines? The brain is a machine in a way. The "computer" of the body and mind, you could say. No man-made machine could ever replace it. Can't replace a soul with a machine.

As for brain surgeries, not every brain surgery would damage or remove a piece of the brain that is used to conatain the 'soul'. I also, if I remeber correctly, there are areas and parts of the brain that are not used, and if damge is done to key areas, there can be replacements for damaged parts. I might be wrong about that though.

Now as for simese twins, they are two different peoople, and have different lives and experiances. They may have the same brain, but they are not identical, because they both live seperate lives.

What evidence do you need to see to know that the soul and brain are different from eachother?

I do believe they are different, but the soul is dependant upon a functioning brain. It won't exist without being alive. But, if you want to convince me that the soul is immortal, and supernatural, and non-matter, then I will need some of this kind of evidence:

Show me someone who is conscious without their brain functioning, and alive.

Show me how the 'soul' is not dependant on the brain for existance.

I need to contact a dead person, whos soul is conscious but not in a body.

Show me that the mind doesn't stop functioning after death?

Explain why damage, or alterations(i.e. tumor) will change who a person is, and their actions and behavior.

Explain how, without a brain, a disembodied soul stores memories, experiances, tell me how it would have any senses(Sight, touch, smell taste, hearing) without the organs to do so.
_____
I have a lot of time. I will be awaiting your response.

 

[serapha]

HI there!

I have a lot of time. I will be awaiting your response.

Okay, you set your rules, that you are only replying to those with evidences...


Here's my rule... you post that "snotty" comment one more time, and this conversation is over.


If you want respect, then give it.... without scarcasm.


I don't have a lot of time, I have a life that requires that I partipate in it.


Are we coming to an understanding?


~serapha~



Address issues.....