In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

Many commentators minimize the subsequent (following) use of the aorist participle. Even such scholars as Robertson and Moulton, who recognize that the participle is not time-bound, resist this category of usage. But there are a number of examples in biblical and extra-biblical Greek where an aorist participle is used to refer to an action occurring after the action of the main verb. In virtually all of these examples, the aorist participle is placed after the main verb in syntactical order.-Porter, S. E. (1999). Idioms of the Greek New Testament (p. 189). JSOT.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

Frankly, I'm disappointed apologists haven't either:

1) Defended the "classic view" that ignores Christ's point entirely;
Or:
2) Confessed joy the Gospel of Christ truly is "good news" for the lost, including everyone's departed loved ones and friends.

It was good news of the Gospel that caused Christianity to spread like a wildfire the first few centuries.

Then Catholics began sending all non-Catholics to hell, and eternal torment.

That stopped the world from embracing Christianity. Very effective strategy by forces opposed to the gospel.

No doubt, many would agree with Charles Darwin who said:

"I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

They shall hear in terms of being resurrected but that is no choice. To those who did not belong to Him, obeyed Him, and so on, they shall be judged by their deeds and some will go into eternal punishment..so it is not really the dead hearing and obeying since the resurrection does not give anyone a change to obey or disobey. I know this is catholic doctrine but only the catholics believe this. Christendom from the first century onwards did not and does not.

 

[Mungo]

It was good news of the Gospel that caused Christianity to spread like a wildfire the first few centuries.

Then Catholics began sending all non-Catholics to hell, and eternal torment.

Not true. But then you don't provide evidence for your anti-Catholic claims.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Define Dead ?

Gen 2:17
..... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Define Dead ?

Gen 2:17
..... for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Then there is "let the dead bury the dead."

 

[Highway54]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

That is the resurrection Alfred. The dead are exactly where you said, in the grave sir.

 

[Free]

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)

While people live, they either believe and accept the gospel or they don't. Once they die, they die as one who is either saved or is not. In John 5:19-29, Jesus is speaking of the general resurrection at which time people will be raised and face judgement. That is in perfect agreement with Heb 9:27. There is no second chance after death. Making the decision to believe in Christ in this life is rather the whole point.

 

[Mungo]

That is the resurrection Alfred. The dead are exactly where you said, in the grave sir.

The bodies of the dead are in the grave. The souls of the dead go to immediate judgement and thence to heaven or hell.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That is the resurrection Alfred. The dead are exactly where you said, in the grave sir.

You haven't explained how Christ can say the Dead are conscious, able to hear "the voice" of the Son of God (who has the keys to hades), and all who "did good" shall come out to the resurrection of life, if the souls of the dead died when the body died

the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

The Society, although claiming to believe the Bible, doesn't believe what is plainly written in it.

That's why I left them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not true. But then you don't provide evidence for your anti-Catholic claims.

Vatican II changed the definition, the Roman Catholic Church once taught the doctrine of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus," which translates to "outside the Church, there is no salvation." This doctrine essentially meant that those who were not members of the Catholic Church were doomed to eternal damnation.

• Pope Pelagius II (died 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church."[22][23]
• Pope Gregory I (died 604) in Moralia, sive Expositio in Job ("An Extensive Consideration of Moral Questions") said: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshiped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."[24] Pope Gregory XVI later quoted his predecessor in his 1832 encyclical Summo jugiter studio ("on mixed religious marriages").[25]
• Pope Leo XII, (Ubi Primum #14, May 5, 1824): "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church."[26]

Wikipedia

It darks genius to claim infallibility, then change the definition of any "infallible statements" in the past, as they become indefensible, or clearly fallible.

But I acknowledge the germ of truth in the premise of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus," that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

That's why the dead must have the gospel preached to them, so all who ever lived get a fair unbiased shot, at eternal life in Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, (ESV)

While people live, they either believe and accept the gospel or they don't. Once they die, they die as one who is either saved or is not. In John 5:19-29, Jesus is speaking of the general resurrection at which time people will be raised and face judgement. That is in perfect agreement with Heb 9:27. There is no second chance after death. Making the decision to believe in Christ in this life is rather the whole point.

You superimposed a theory on those texts that contradicts the context.

The Judgment in Hebrews 9:27 cannot be the Great White Throne Judgment that happens AFTER the millennial kingdom of Christ.

1) Men "die" and then the Judgment is made.
2)After the Judgment, then some eagerly wait for Christ's second appearance.

Therefore, the Judgment in Hebrew 9:27 cannot be the Great White Throne Judgment and general resurrection in Revelation Rev. 20:11-15.

1a)It happens at a different time and place;
2a) After the Great White Throne Judgment, people aren't in hades waiting for the second appearance of Christ.

 

[Free]

You superimposed a theory on those texts that contradicts the context.

The Judgment in Hebrews 9:27 cannot be the Great White Throne Judgment that happens AFTER the millennial kingdom of Christ.

1) Men "die" and then the Judgment is made.
2)After the Judgment, then some eagerly wait for Christ's second appearance.

Therefore, the Judgment in Hebrew 9:27 cannot be the Great White Throne Judgment and general resurrection in Revelation Rev. 20:11-15.

On the contrary, it can only be the GWT judgement. There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that even implies that man has a second chance after he dies. Man dies once and is judged once.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

Verse 28 parallels verse 27--"it is appointed for man to die once" and "Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many;" "after that comes judgement" and "will appear a second time . . . to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Notice that Christ will not come again "to deal with sin." Why? Because he has already "been offered once to bear the sins of many." It is only those at his coming who are alive and have been justified or those who died after they had been justified while alive, that are counted as "those who are early waiting for him."

There is no second chance after death.

 

[JLB]

Jesus said the dead will hear His voice and all who "hear" (=obey) would live. Life or death are determined by the response to His voice. Jesus' point throughout this context is the Father has authorized the Son to judge and give life to all who obey His voice just like the Father. Just as with the Father, the dead (physically alive or not) are judged by their obedience to Christ's voice:

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),
29 And shall come forth; they that have done (ποιήσαντες aorist participle) good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done (πράξαντες aorist participle) evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:25-29 KJV)


In John 5:29 the KJV translated the aorist participles as "have done", but context requires "did":

Jesus makes it clear if we read through and see contextually, what His point is.

Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
John 5:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When He returns He will descend with a shout and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those who have done good to the resurrection of life.

After we die we have no ability to do good.


JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

On the contrary, it can only be the GWT judgement. There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that even implies that man has a second chance after he dies. Man dies once and is judged once.

Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

Verse 28 parallels verse 27--"it is appointed for man to die once" and "Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many;" "after that comes judgement" and "will appear a second time . . . to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." Notice that Christ will not come again "to deal with sin." Why? Because he has already "been offered once to bear the sins of many." It is only those at his coming who are alive and have been justified or those who died after they had been justified while alive, that are counted as "those who are early waiting for him."

There is no second chance after death.

Your objection is "circular", "not a single verse" EXCEPT Hebrews 9:27-28!

Moreover, you changed the sequence. Christ's sacrifice is separated in time from a single man dying. The apostle says He was sacrificed "once" at the end of the age, not when men die.

So your exegesis has a chronology not in the text. Men die, AFTER THAT the Judgment.

So both the place and time of these judgments are different, therefore they cannot be the same judgment.

 

[Free]

Your objection is "circular", "not a single verse" EXCEPT Hebrews 9:27-28!

How is circular?

Moreover, you changed the sequence. Christ's sacrifice is separated in time from a single man dying. The apostle says He was sacrificed "once" at the end of the age, not when men die.

I changed what sequence? I don't understand what you're saying here.

So your exegesis has a chronology not in the text. Men die, AFTER THAT the Judgment.

So both the place and time of these judgments are different, therefore they cannot be the same judgment.

My chronology is fine. People are dead, correct? The GWT judgement is still a future event, correct?

 

[Alfred Persson]

How is circular?


I changed what sequence? I don't understand what you're saying here.


My chronology is fine. People are dead, correct? The GWT judgement is still a future event, correct?

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.-Wikipedia

Read it again for understanding. I can't explain it better than I have.

Precisely that makes it wrong! Its "your chronology", not scripture's.

The Judgment in Hebrews happens AFTER men die.

How do we know the timing of the judgment? Because after this judgment, while they are still in Death, some eagerly wait for Christ's second appearance.

Christ's second appearance is well before the Great White Throne Judgment happens, which is after Christ's millennial Kingdom.

Therefore, the Judgment in Hebrew 9:27 cannot be the Great White Throne Judgment in Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[Free]

Circular reasoning (Latin: circulus in probando, "circle in proving"; also known as circular logic) is a logical fallacy in which the reasoner begins with what they are trying to end with.-Wikipedia

Read it again for understanding. I can't explain it better than I have.

I know very well what circular reasoning is but you have not at all shown that to be the case. And it isn't the case; there is nothing circular in what I have stated. If there is any circular reasoning, it is on your part, as you are reading an idea into Heb 9:27-28 that isn't there and then using it to conclude that it proves your position, at least from what I can make out of what you said.

Precisely! Its "your chronology", not scriptures. The Judgment in Hebrews happens AFTER death, the Great White Throne Judgment happens after people no longer die.

This explanation doesn't explain anything. People are currently dead and the judgement is yet to come--all the people currently dead have died once, then will come the general resurrection where they will face judgement. That is the chronology I gave and it is the chronology given in Hen 9:27-28 and Rev 20:11-15. That people will no longer die after the GWT judgement goes without saying and is not relevant to Heb 9:27-28.

Again, there is no verse in the Bible that even implies there is a second chance after death--we die once and then we are raised to face judgement at Christ's return.

 

[Mungo]

Vatican II changed the definition, the Roman Catholic Church once taught the doctrine of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus," which translates to "outside the Church, there is no salvation." This doctrine essentially meant that those who were not members of the Catholic Church were doomed to eternal damnation.

Vatican II changed nothing in that respect. and you provide no evidence that it did.

In the 1940s there was a group led by a Fr. Feeney who taught a very literal version of "outside the Church, there is no salvation." to exclude anyone that was not a member of the Catholic Church.

This view was condemned by the "Holy Office" and that condemnation was approved by the Pope in 1949, well before Vatican II.
One of the points they made was that "this dogma ["outside the Church, there is no salvation"] must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it".

And later "Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing."

And
These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.

Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.

Letter to the Archbishop of Boston | EWTN

EWTN is a global, Catholic Television, Catholic Radio, and Catholic News Network that provides catholic programming and news coverage from around the world.

www.ewtn.com

The following is a quote from a catholic on another forum regarding this.
I've said all along that membership in a Church is not a requirement for salvation. Let's focus here on just people to whom are not invincibly ignorant, which is basically almost everybody.

* If a person is never baptized, then they cannot in truth hope to be saved. They are "outside the Church". They are not infallibly damned either, but they have no hope to be saved according to the revelation we have received from God.

* If a person is baptized, they are no longer "outside the Church". If they die before committing a mortal sin, they will be saved. It doesn't matter if they call themselves Catholic or not.

* If a person is baptized, and then commits a mortal sin, they are then "outside the Church". If they do not repent of that mortal sin before they die, then they have no hope to be saved according to any revelation we have received from God.

* If a person is baptized, and whenever they commit a mortal sin, repent, so that at the end of their life they have repented from all mortal sins, then they are not "outside the Church", and they will be saved.

That is the bare minimum one needs to know about "Outside the Church there is no Salvation".

It doesn't mean:
* That someone who doesn't call themselves Catholic will be lost.
* That someone who calls themselves Catholic will be saved.

 

[Mungo]

• Pope Pelagius II (died 590): "Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord...Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church."[22][23]
• Pope Gregory I (died 604) in Moralia, sive Expositio in Job ("An Extensive Consideration of Moral Questions") said: "Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshiped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved."[24] Pope Gregory XVI later quoted his predecessor in his 1832 encyclical Summo jugiter studio ("on mixed religious marriages").[25]
• Pope Leo XII, (Ubi Primum #14, May 5, 1824): "It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and that no other name under heaven is given to men except the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth in which we must be saved. This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church."[26]

Wikipedia

It darks genius to claim infallibility, then change the definition of any "infallible statements" in the past, as they become indefensible, or clearly fallible.

But I acknowledge the germ of truth in the premise of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus," that there is no salvation apart from Jesus Christ.

"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

That's why the dead must have the gospel preached to them, so all who ever lived get a fair unbiased shot, at eternal life in Christ.

Not everything a Pope says is an infallible statement.

According to my sources there are only 3 De Fides statements by Popes or Councils on this matter, and none of those you quote are among them.