Instrumental music

[Collier]

We discussed this topic a good while back. We were having a good discussion when some got the thread off topic and it died. I remember Vic and others were enjoying this discussion so I thought it would be beneficial to discuss it again.What is your stance on instrumental music in worship services?Simply saying that you don't see anything wrong with it is not the attitude we should have. Colossians 3:17 says, "and whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him." All that we do must be by the authority of Jesus Christ according to His will. So, where does instrumental music fall into this? Do we have God's approval to use them in worship to Him?In the N.T. gospel of Jesus Christ, we find the command to sing but we do not find the command to play! Since we don't have this command, would not instruments of music belong in the category of the commandments of men? (Matt. 15:9)Please don't think this is a trivial topic. It is very important that we do what God wants and not what we like or what we think is acceptable. We must worship God in Spirit and in truth (John 4:24). God's word is truth and therefore we must worship according to God's word.So, if you are in favor of using instruments in worship what scriptural ground do you stand on? Where does God allow for their use under the N.T. gospel of Christ?

 

[prayerpower]

I grew up in a church with only voices and an organ. It was OK, but boring. Did I love God? Yes. Did I pay attention? Not always (part of it was my age - teenager) Were ppl attracted to this? Yes/No Did we lose members? No Did our church "grow"? No.

I now attend and work for my church who has a full band (my hubby plays the drums). Do I love God? Yes. Do I pay attention? Most of the time. Are ppl attracted to this? Yes/No Do we lose members? NO Does our church "grow"? Yes.

The story of David really draws the mind when comtemplating this question of musical instruments in church. Of course, how did David "calm" Saul's evil spirit? (1 Samuel 16:14-23) By playing the harp. Not by singing only.

Of course, all's you have to do is look at the book of Psalms and see under the headings of 1/2 of the chapters "director of music".

I am in favor of music in church.

 

[Collier]

We are no longer under the law of Moses. We live in the Christian age and are under the N.T. law of Christ. Where do we have authority in the gospel of Christ to use instruments of music in our worship?Again, I see the command to sing but I see no command to use instruments. God wants singing and He said the instrument is the heart (Ephesians 5:19; Colossians 3:16). The church we read about in the Bible did not use them, so why do some use them today? As far as I can see, they do not have God's approval.

 

[NRoof]

Collier,
There is so much I would like to say but most of it would be off the topic at hand.

Again, I see the command to sing but I see no command to use instruments.

I will agree with you on this. I can find no place in the NT that specifically say to use instruments.
Now that we agree on this I want to ask a question of you.
Can you please show me where in the NT it say not to use instruments.

The church we read about in the Bible did not use them

Could you please show me proof that they did not use them.

 

[Collier]

Can you please show me where in the NT it say not to use instruments

There is no verse which specifically says "do not use musical instruments". However, must God say don't do this and don't do that or does He simply have to say do this and all else be excluded?If we take the stance that since God doesn't specifically say "don't do this" that we are free to do what ever pleases us then we open the door to doing many things. What is to keep us from putting a tv in the building during worship services to watch the big game? I know you would object to this and it is wrong but does God specifically say not to do this?Worship in O.T. times was physical in nature while in the N.T. worship is spiritual in nature. That is why we sing and the melody is from the heart.As far as your question about proof the early church did not use them boils down to the fact they did not have a command from God to use them. We see no example of them using instruments.I know many of you may not see the importance of this topic, but I think you would all agree that doing things against God's will is sinful and if musical instruments are not part of His will for worshipping Him then it is sinful and not acceptable, thus it is very important.

 

[NRoof]

I know many of you may not see the importance of this topic, but I think you would all agree that doing things against God's will is sinful and if musical instruments are not part of His will for worshipping Him then it is sinful and not acceptable, thus it is very important.

I am in full agreement that we shouldn't do things against the will of God. As has been stated we don't have any word from God either for or against this in the NT. We do however have evidence of it in the OT. Did God change his mind?

Matthew 5:17
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

God's word in the OT doesn't just go away because of the NT. So if instruments were OK in the OT doesn't it make sense that it is still OK in the NT.

God's word is strangely silent on the use of computers. Surely the early Church didn't use them. Is it a sin to use them to show scripture during a service? Is it a sin to use them to fellowship with others over great distances? Even posting on forums could be considered a form of worship.
I understand this is an extreme example but I feel it is valid non the less.

The chruch I attend does both hymns and contemporary worship music. I personally don't care for the hymns as they have the tendency to put me to sleep. When the worship team plays a song I "sing" to the Lord. The words are heartfelt and directed solely to the Lord.

I have also seen where it was all about the entertainment. I have seen where people applaud at the end of a song. In this instance I have little doubt the people are praising the band and not God. The problem is not the instruments used but where the heart of the person is.

 

[Collier]

You are correct that they were used in O.T. times but so were alot of other acts of worship which were "imposed until a time of reformation" (Hebrews 9:10). If you appeal to the O.T. for justification to use instruments, do you also burn incence and light lamps and the other things the Jews did?God told us to sing and adding instruments is adding to His word and we are warned against doing such (Deut. 12:32; Gal. 3:15; Rev. 22:18). The fact is that we don't have a "thus saith the Lord" nor do we have an example of N.T. Christians worshipping with instruments. What gives us the right to change what God has said?

 

[NRoof]

If you appeal to the O.T. for justification to use instruments, do you also burn incence and light lamps and the other things the Jews did?

You may need to provide me with specifics but if these activities were performed as part of a sacrifice then the answer is no. We could get into a whole discussion on OT vs. NT but that is outside the scope of this topic. Bottom line Jesus was the perfect sacrifice and anything to do with sacrifice has been done away with. That doesn't negate the rest of the OT.

God told us to sing and adding instruments is adding to His word and we are warned against doing such (Deut. 12:32; Gal. 3:15; Rev. 22:18). The fact is that we don't have a "thus saith the Lord" nor do we have an example of N.T. Christians worshipping with instruments. What gives us the right to change what God has said?

I'm not trying to be argumentitive here but aren't you doing the same thing? The way I read what you are saying is that God has said not to use instruments even though we can't find it in his word. Is this not adding to his word?

 

[Collier]

What I am saying is that God has authorized singing. That is all we have His approval on in the N.T. Yes, we could have a lengthy discussion on the OT vs. NT but in the OT God was very specific as to the type of instrument to be played and when it was to be played but in the NT there is not one word about using them in worship.Again, the whole point is that in the NT our worship is spiritual; it is from the heart and it is in the heart where the melody is made. When we worship God it is to be as He wants and all we do must be by His authority and I can find no such authority for instruments in the NT.By the way NRoof, thanks for such a civil discussion; it is hard to find that sometimes.

 

[Novice]

I guess I missed the verse where God authorizes my use of the internet.

This IS a trivial topic, and the argument is already lost when anyone engages it, because they effectively cede that it's worth engaging.

There are people starving, old people in homes not visited, children not educated, babies not fed, poor unclothed. I'm not going to look into Jesus's eyes when He asks what I did to be a sheep, not a goat, and say: "I defended the tamborine".

All that is unessential is trivial. We need to focus on the essentials.

 

[Free]

I'm with Novice that this is a trivial topic.

This is exactly what happens when people take Sola Scriptura to extremes that were never intended and ignore the much larger picture; it creates absurdities.

On your line of thinking Collier, perhaps you should first consider whether or not large churches are mentioned in the Bible. Some would have you believe that since they are not mentioned in the Bible (only home churches), they are unbiblical. But that, too, is absurd.

Let me ask you this Collier: some people who major in music at a university specialize in voice and some specialize in violin, etc. Why would it be that someone who sings, essentially an instrument, should be allowed to sing in church while someone who plays violin not allowed? Both are based on the same principles of music.

 

[Collier]

Call it trivial if you will but it is a very serious subject. When we worship God, we are to do so according to His will. When you offer musical instruments as worship to God, do you have His approval? If you do not then God calls this vain worship in Matthew 15:9.You can't compare using the internet or a large church meeting in a building to instruments of music. They are not the same things. Instruments are offered as worship while the internet and so on are not, it is comparing apples and oranges.

Let me ask you this Collier: some people who major in music at a university specialize in voice and some specialize in violin, etc. Why would it be that someone who sings, essentially an instrument, should be allowed to sing in church while someone who plays violin not allowed? Both are based on the same principles of music.

I know that some people have a God given ability to play instruments (my oldest son is one), but the difference when it comes to worshipping God is that He has said He wants singing. He does not authorize instruments. In the since that the voice is an instrument you are right, so there you are it is the voice not a mechanical instrument. God wants singing from the heart and we have no right to add to His word.After all, who do we go to worship to please? Ourselves or God?

 

[Merry Menagerie]

"Be filled with teh spirit speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Singing and making melody in your hearts to the Lord"

The word 'psalm' means - a piece of music, sacred ode.

David wrote such psalms. With music he wrote sacred odes. Therefore when one sings psalms then one has a piece of music and sings a sacred ode. This, in my opinion, gives enough directives for insruments.

Also the voice is an instrument and we're not instructed to use our voices either. Rather we are told to sing in our hearts. So the argument "If the bible doesn't instruct then we don't do it" gets a bit silly! Next thing you know we'd all be there in silence singing in our hearts...I'm sure God gave us wisdom for a reason right?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hooo boy! Some of you folks would CERTAINLY take exception to the sequenced musical backings that I create myself and use in church. As the music coordinator of my church, I began this practice after the few musicians that we DID have moved away. Most of the congregation appreciate the BIG sound that enhances traditional hymnal as well as contemporary gospel songs. Some, two or three, however, would prefer 'the old ways'. They DO tolerate the music but I feel that they, deep down, wish that we of the music team would go away.

 

[Free]

You can't compare using the internet or a large church meeting in a building to instruments of music. They are not the same things. Instruments are offered as worship while the internet and so on are not, it is comparing apples and oranges.

It is not apples and oranges. I used large church buildings to show the inconsistency in your beliefs.

You state that only singing is ordained by God (for which you have yet to provide one single verse in support) and you appeal to the fact that instruments aren't mentioned in the NT. Well, neither are large church buildings mentioned in the NT. I'll assume that you meet with many others in a large church building. And if you do, then you are "adding to God's Word" since such places of worship aren't mentioned in the NT. Therefore, you are being inconsistent in your beliefs.

In the since that the voice is an instrument you are right, so there you are it is the voice not a mechanical instrument.

Oh, so now this is just about "mechanical" instruments, and not "non-mechanical" instruments.

We are no longer under the law of Moses. We live in the Christian age and are under the N.T. law of Christ
........
God wants singing from the heart and we have no right to add to His word.

:-? I really don't know how to address such silly arguments.

After all, who do we go to worship to please? Ourselves or God?

This is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Why do you assume that playing instruments is to please ourselves? Do you not believe that we are to worship God with all that we are and with all the talents he has given us?

I think you completely fail to understand the biblical purpose of music and the effect that it can have.

 

[Collier]

Hello Free:First of all, large church buildings and using instruments of music in worship are not the same no matter how much you want it to be. We have the command to assemble and worship. God gives us no other commandment on where it is to be done. However, God most certainly gives a commandment on the type of music pleasing to Him in worship.

You state that only singing is ordained by God (for which you have yet to provide one single verse in support) and you appeal to the fact that instruments aren't mentioned in the NT.

Yes I did! Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 are commands from God to sing.

Collier wrote:
In the since that the voice is an instrument you are right, so there you are it is the voice not a mechanical instrument.

Oh, so now this is just about "mechanical" instruments, and not "non-mechanical" instruments.

This just goes to prove my point. The instrument God requires is the voice.

Collier wrote:
We are no longer under the law of Moses. We live in the Christian age and are under the N.T. law of Christ
........
God wants singing from the heart and we have no right to add to His word.

I really don't know how to address such silly arguments.

I am sorry that you feel the gospel of Jesus Christ is silly. With this attitude, why do you even bother discussing anything? If you feel it necessary to try and be justified by the law of Moses then by all means try, but it is the law of Christ that we live under today and will be judged by.

This is totally irrelevant to the discussion. Why do you assume that playing instruments is to please ourselves? Do you not believe that we are to worship God with all that we are and with all the talents he has given us?

No it is not irrelevant. If God doesn't want it and command it and we have it, then who is it suppose to please? Certainly not God because He hasn't commanded it. Yes, we are to worship God with all we are but do so according to His will. I believe even you would agree there are certain talents that would be inappropiate to use in our worship assembly.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Every other week I set aside my sequenced music backing tracks for a different and more 'reverent' style of worship. Tomorrow (August 20) I'll be playing my acoustic/electric guitar, the pastor, his electric bass. The piano will also be featured. The scheduled songs are: As The Deer, How Deep The Father's Love For Us, Power In The Blood, Change My Heart, O God, This Is My Father's World, Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee, and a nice song written by the pastor's wife. We'll be encouraging the congregation to 'get into the Spirit' with us. Which of these accompanying instruments should we eliminate in order to 'please' some of you ...all of them?

 

[Solo]

22 Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: 23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; 24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ. Colosians 3:22-24

If you play instruments then do it heartily as to the Lord, and not unto men; if you don't play instruments but sing, then sing heartily as to the Lord; if you do neither, then worship by giving to the needy, or teaching, or preaching, or obeying, or .....................

Why would anyone be hung up on playing instruments while worshipping God?

Those of faith have played instruments to God in their worship. Why stop after Jesus lived, died, and rose again for our salvation. Play instruments even more heartily as unto the Lord.

I can't play any instruments, and my wife doesn't play any instruments. All five of my sons play the guitar (self-taught), and the drums (self-taught), and three play the piano (taught and self-taught). Should these God given talents be wasted on satan, or used in worshipping the God that saved all five of them?

PS My Greek instructor (who was also my academic advisor) belonged to the non-instrumental Church of Christ, and he was a great Christian man. He wasn't much of a singer from my recollection.

 

[NRoof]

I'm with Novice that this is a trivial topic

Why is this trivial. If Collier is a follower of Christ (I'm assuming he is but only God knows his heart) then wouldn't his concerns be important to God. If it's important to God then shouldn't it be important to us.

As I have clearly stated I have not been convicted the same as Collier in this area. However, if I told you about my concerns about Christmas you would probably call that trivial as well.

There is something to be concerned about here. I was a member of a "Seeker Friendly" church. The music was great and the sermons were uplifting. Being that this was the first church I ever attended it was exactly what "I" wanted. The music they played was there primarily for entertainment. It was a hook to get people to come to this church. I can't tell you the number of times I heard people say "you have to come to this church and hear the band, they are awesome" (I was guilty of this as well). What I didn't hear was you have to come to this church to hear the Gospel of Christ. And oh by the way the sermons were only the good stuff in the Bible. Only about Grace and Love and never about Sacrifice.

The danger in this is that people believe they are saved when in fact they may not be and yes the music is a large portion of that. In my case it was a good experience because it caused me to truly seek Christ and realize that there was more than what I was being taught.

Every one of us needs a personal relationship with Christ and that relationship is different for each one of us.

Collier,
It is possible that God was silent on this area because each one of us is different. It's possible God has convicted you this way because he knows this is the best way for you to worship him with a pure heart. And he has convicted me differently for the same reason.

Bottom line for me is it's not whether there are instruments or not but where the heart of the person is while they are worshiping. When I sing now I sing from my heart to the Lord and I praise him through the song. I don't believe this displeases God in any way.

 

[stovebolts]

NRoof,
You set a fine example for us all in brotherly love, kindness and respect.

I agree with what you are saying 100%. Some can worship God with all of their heart with musical instruments, some can't.

What is important is that we worship God and there is nothing trivial about that.