Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is Calvinism Self Defeating?

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00
The Bible teaches that we are saved and justified by faith, Ephesians 2:8. Mainly faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament God's people were saved and justified by God's promise of a savior, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3. The whole eleventh chapter of Hebrews is about faith. The only thing that God honors in both the Old Testament and the New Testament is faith.

The greatest love that you can show someone is to have faith in them. Hebrews 11:6 says, "Without faith it is impossible to please him". Paul said, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

All false religions substitute works and obedience for faith. They don't talk much about faith, because they don't have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. Catholics have a lot of faith in the Catholic church. Calvinists have a lot of faith in Calvinism and John Calvin. The only thing that we are required to have faith in is Jesus Christ and his Gospel. Faith in a church or a religion is a form of idol worship.

Calvinism requires that you believe things about God and Jesus Christ that are not true. To be a Calvinist you must believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. This doctrine is unbiblical, unconceivable, unbelievable and unthinkable. It is not humanely possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism, it is self-defeating.

Calvinism also requires that you believe Jesus Christ did not atone for the sins of the whole world, and is not the savior of the whole world, even when Jesus said that he did, John 12:47. If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is not Lord. This is very serious, because no one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3. Jesus is Lord because he sits in heaven as, "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

How can anyone have faith in a Christ that is a failure? To believe that Jesus failed to atone for the sins of the whole world is self-defeating. If we are saved and justified by faith, then we must believe that Jesus atoned for everyone's sins, so that.... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
 
The Bible teaches that we are saved and justified by faith, Ephesians 2:8. Mainly faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. In the Old Testament God's people were saved and justified by God's promise of a savior, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4:3. The whole eleventh chapter of Hebrews is about faith. The only thing that God honors in both the Old Testament and the New Testament is faith.

The greatest love that you can show someone is to have faith in them. Hebrews 11:6 says, "Without faith it is impossible to please him". Paul said, "For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, "The just shall live by faith" Romans 1:17.

All false religions substitute works and obedience for faith. They don't talk much about faith, because they don't have faith in God and his Son Jesus Christ. Catholics have a lot of faith in the Catholic church. Calvinists have a lot of faith in Calvinism and John Calvin. The only thing that we are required to have faith in is Jesus Christ and his Gospel. Faith in a church or a religion is a form of idol worship.

Calvinism requires that you believe things about God and Jesus Christ that are not true. To be a Calvinist you must believe that God predestinates people to hell before they are born. This doctrine is unbiblical, unconceivable, unbelievable and unthinkable. It is not humanely possible to have saving faith in the God of Calvinism, it is self-defeating.

Calvinism also requires that you believe Jesus Christ did not atone for the sins of the whole world, and is not the savior of the whole world, even when Jesus said that he did, John 12:47. If Jesus did not atone for the sins of the whole world, then Jesus is not Lord. This is very serious, because no one can say Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:3. Jesus is Lord because he sits in heaven as, "The King of Kings and the Lord of Lords" Revelation 19:16.

How can anyone have faith in a Christ that is a failure? To believe that Jesus failed to atone for the sins of the whole world is self-defeating. If we are saved and justified by faith, then we must believe that Jesus atoned for everyone's sins, so that.... "Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
Good post.
Yes, unbelievable teachings for sure.
Jesus has died for everyone, 1 John 2,2
So that ANYONE who wishes to be saved can call on the name of Jesus.
 
Good post.
Yes, unbelievable teachings for sure.
Jesus has died for everyone, 1 John 2,2
So that ANYONE who wishes to be saved can call on the name of Jesus.
Thank you for your response.

There are some believers on this Forum, you are one of them.

I suspect that this article will soon be locked.
 
Thank you for your response.

There are some believers on this Forum, you are one of them.

I suspect that this article will soon be locked.
The bible seems to be very clear to me.
God's laws seem to make a lot of logical sense.
I just don't find this in calvinism.

Also, I don't understand why believers in calvinism have a difficult time accepting what it teaches. I say this because they contradict what calvinism plainly teaches.

If they want to be reformed in theology, they should, at least, accept what it plainly teaches.
 
The bible seems to be very clear to me.
God's laws seem to make a lot of logical sense.
I just don't find this in calvinism.

Also, I don't understand why believers in calvinism have a difficult time accepting what it teaches. I say this because they contradict what calvinism plainly teaches.

If they want to be reformed in theology, they should, at least, accept what it plainly teaches.
You only need one scripture to refute Calvinism, John 3:16.

Here is what Calvinist say about John 3:16.

God hates the world and has damned everyone to hell, except for a few precious ones.
 
You only need one scripture to refute Calvinism, John 3:16.

Here is what Calvinist say about John 3:16.

God hates the world and has damned everyone to hell, except for a few precious ones.
Right.
As I can post many verses that God so loved the world.

Calvinism teaches:
John 3:16 that those that God caused to believe shall not perish.

Every other denomination teaches:
John 3:16 that WHOSOEVER believes WILL HAVE eternal life.

The believing is left up to the person, as in Acts 16:31 when the jailer is commanded to believe in Jesus.

Why command anything when it will be:

1. God choosing the saved.
2. God predestined the action the jailer will take.

Intetesting stuff...
 
self-defeating?!??!


not to be "that dude...," but the issue is: true or false?

honestly...I do think one could make an argument for a more nuanced take on it, I suppose. Something like "useful to a point..." and/or "helpful in interpreting Scripture..." or...??? maybe?

Jesus says : "ye shall know a tree by the fruit it bears...," so...what's become of Calvinists -- both individually and as groups, as denominations? and then...

PCUSA is ridiculous. Undoubtedly, lots of genuinely, truly saved and striving souls in the denomination. However, the denomination itself has been dying a slow, at times rather embarrassing and painful death since the 60s or so. Some of this -- to be fair, and to put things into proper perspective -- is true of "mainline" Christianity in the USA, in general. Many people never were converted and stopped all religious affiliation; others died (the average age of mainline church goers is...up there, from what I understand...), some moved on to other churches, movements, etc., that they felt were more authentic or...on and on and on.

But yeah. Here locally, a long-established Presby congregation is -awesome- with outreach, charity work, giving, etc. They're right up there with the Catholics, which...in -this context- , is basically saying they deserve all sorts of respect, even admiration. And yet...

I have to say/type that it's just not...working out, is it? Numbers have declined, are continuing to decline. Splinters...always always splintering. More conservative groups, Orthodox groups...here and there the more progressive/left end of what's left of PCUSA will try to unite with socialists and leftist intellectuals...

but overall? dying. As with the Episcopalians in the USA, a lot of what maintains the relevance, such as it is, is simply...clout. Mix of denominational resources, the education and overall social class of a segment of the remaining membership, that sort of thing. So...is it true? I'm increasingly skeptical, honestly. I grew up on the left(ish) (not not not radical, lol) end of it, way back when, and...

dying. some of the concepts I was raised with are/were Christian, with a Calvinist flavor -- the importance of family as a fundamental unit within society, the understanding that church itself ("the visible church," to use Westminster language) is a worthwhile, important institution within the larger social framework -- but these concepts can be understood and applied by just about anyone, with or without a Christian worldview, much less everything else. And..

Not to sound burned and bitter (I'm not, just...sharing, because "sharing is caring," LOL), church -itself- has become too politicized, too worldly, too...much, for a lot of people in these United States in particular (cannot speak about other nations...). Lifestyle, education level, social class, race...these factors are increasingly driving church affiliation among those who still do church. I don't know if there ever was a place in modern America in which people of all strata and such intermingled and learned from each other, etc., but...

the divisions are becoming more extreme, and the church has suffered as a result (personal opinion). Calvinism..."self-defeating" ? maybe? if I wanted to dress up my disappointment in much of the established church in psych-speak...sure. But I don't. I won't. I think others should refrain, as well.

sorry to ramble. The modern, established church is -dying- and Presby etc. are on their way towards extinction, so...sadly...a better question is probably: is Calvinism relevant?

disillusioned....
 
You only need one scripture to refute Calvinism, John 3:16.

Here is what Calvinist say about John 3:16.

God hates the world and has damned everyone to hell, except for a few precious ones.
This is a straw man. Calvinists don't believe this.
 
self-defeating?!??!


not to be "that dude...," but the issue is: true or false?

honestly...I do think one could make an argument for a more nuanced take on it, I suppose. Something like "useful to a point..." and/or "helpful in interpreting Scripture..." or...??? maybe?

Jesus says : "ye shall know a tree by the fruit it bears...," so...what's become of Calvinists -- both individually and as groups, as denominations? and then...

PCUSA is ridiculous. Undoubtedly, lots of genuinely, truly saved and striving souls in the denomination. However, the denomination itself has been dying a slow, at times rather embarrassing and painful death since the 60s or so. Some of this -- to be fair, and to put things into proper perspective -- is true of "mainline" Christianity in the USA, in general. Many people never were converted and stopped all religious affiliation; others died (the average age of mainline church goers is...up there, from what I understand...), some moved on to other churches, movements, etc., that they felt were more authentic or...on and on and on.

But yeah. Here locally, a long-established Presby congregation is -awesome- with outreach, charity work, giving, etc. They're right up there with the Catholics, which...in -this context- , is basically saying they deserve all sorts of respect, even admiration. And yet...

I have to say/type that it's just not...working out, is it? Numbers have declined, are continuing to decline. Splinters...always always splintering. More conservative groups, Orthodox groups...here and there the more progressive/left end of what's left of PCUSA will try to unite with socialists and leftist intellectuals...

but overall? dying. As with the Episcopalians in the USA, a lot of what maintains the relevance, such as it is, is simply...clout. Mix of denominational resources, the education and overall social class of a segment of the remaining membership, that sort of thing. So...is it true? I'm increasingly skeptical, honestly. I grew up on the left(ish) (not not not radical, lol) end of it, way back when, and...

dying. some of the concepts I was raised with are/were Christian, with a Calvinist flavor -- the importance of family as a fundamental unit within society, the understanding that church itself ("the visible church," to use Westminster language) is a worthwhile, important institution within the larger social framework -- but these concepts can be understood and applied by just about anyone, with or without a Christian worldview, much less everything else. And..

Not to sound burned and bitter (I'm not, just...sharing, because "sharing is caring," LOL), church -itself- has become too politicized, too worldly, too...much, for a lot of people in these United States in particular (cannot speak about other nations...). Lifestyle, education level, social class, race...these factors are increasingly driving church affiliation among those who still do church. I don't know if there ever was a place in modern America in which people of all strata and such intermingled and learned from each other, etc., but...

the divisions are becoming more extreme, and the church has suffered as a result (personal opinion). Calvinism..."self-defeating" ? maybe? if I wanted to dress up my disappointment in much of the established church in psych-speak...sure. But I don't. I won't. I think others should refrain, as well.

sorry to ramble. The modern, established church is -dying- and Presby etc. are on their way towards extinction, so...sadly...a better question is probably: is Calvinism relevant?

disillusioned....
My brother in the US has left 3 churches together with his wife. My sister in law won't go to church anymore. Unheard of. For political reasons. It makes me feel sick.
 
Of course they do.

Canons of Dort. FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 6.

That some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it, proceeds from God's eternal decree.
No, they don't. If they don't teach it, then it's a straw man. It's most likely the case that you simply don't understand what they teach. Calvinism teaches that justification is by God by grace alone, on the basis of Christ alone, through faith alone, to the glory of God alone.

All the disagreements you have with Calvinism ignore this one fact: most people will not be saved. What that is a result of--whether God has already chosen, people choose, or some combination--is rather irrelevant. So, just go evangelize and make disciples.
 
Of course they do.

Canons of Dort. FIRST HEAD: ARTICLE 6.

That some receive the gift of faith from God, and others do not receive it, proceeds from God's eternal decree.
Look at the whole statement;

Article 6: God’s Eternal Decree​

The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decree. For “all his works are known to God from eternity” (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11).


In accordance with this decree God graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of the elect and inclines them to believe, but by a just judgment God leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen.

And in this especially is disclosed to us God’s act—unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just—of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decree of election and reprobation revealed in God’s Word. The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.
 
No, they don't. If they don't teach it, then it's a straw man. It's most likely the case that you simply don't understand what they teach. Calvinism teaches that justification is by God by grace alone, on the basis of Christ alone, through faith alone, to the glory of God alone.

All the disagreements you have with Calvinism ignore this one fact: most people will not be saved. What that is a result of--whether God has already chosen, people choose, or some combination--is rather irrelevant. So, just go evangelize and make disciples.
Most will not be saved because God predestinated them to hell, because he doesn't. Most will not be saved because they love their sins. Its choice not predestination.
 
Look at the whole statement;

Article 6: God’s Eternal Decree​

The fact that some receive from God the gift of faith within time, and that others do not, stems from his eternal decree. For “all his works are known to God from eternity” (Acts 15:18; Eph. 1:11).


In accordance with this decree God graciously softens the hearts, however hard, of the elect and inclines them to believe, but by a just judgment God leaves in their wickedness and hardness of heart those who have not been chosen.

And in this especially is disclosed to us God’s act—unfathomable, and as merciful as it is just—of distinguishing between people equally lost. This is the well-known decree of election and reprobation revealed in God’s Word. The wicked, impure, and unstable distort this decree to their own ruin, but it provides holy and godly souls with comfort beyond words.
You still wind up with an unjust God that sends people to hell before they are born. This is not the God of the Bible. This is the God that came out of the twisted mind of a heretic.
 
God is never unjust...you cannot prove any of what you are saying.
Monster Strawmen again.
Robert, if you want to have an honest discussion we can.
This nonsense is a time waster.
 
God is never unjust...you cannot prove any of what you are saying.
Monster Strawmen again.
Robert, if you want to have an honest discussion we can.
This nonsense is a time waster.
Your Calvinist God is unjust. The God of Calvinism is not the God that is in the Bible.

You have embraced a false doctrine and a false God. You will hear it directly from Jesus in the judgment.
 
It's not nonsense.
Really?
in the next post #19 our friend Robert accuses me of;

1]Your Calvinist God is unjust.

2]The God of Calvinism is not the God that is in the Bible.

3]You have embraced a false doctrine and a false God.

4]You will hear it directly from Jesus in the judgment.

You defend Robert saying I am an unsaved idolator, who will be cast into hell?


Now...I do not have thin skin, like some of the snowflakes who are on message boards who do drive by posting attacks, and as soon as you answer they want to appeal to the T.O.S. rules to censor or silence you. Nope...I never desire to report anyone except to point out to moderators that these people reporting posts are doing much worse, and it is not addressed by any mod/admin...because they themselves have an anti -cal bias.
I would think it is not permitted to question my salvation, but i do not care or object because I do not believe in censorship....or selective, editing of free speech.

I see that Robert, by his own testimony does worship the God I do. I am okay with that.
I do not see Dorothy Mae jumping in to explain to Robert that his post is rubbish.

FREE is the only admin/Mod who has tried to be objective.
 
Back
Top