Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

[Royff]

In the Book of Genesis, the Lord explained the meaning of death to Adam that would be the result if he ate of the forbidden fruit. In that explanation, the Lord informed the man that he would return to the dust from which he came, for dust he is and to dust he will return. In this there is no mention of the man suffering in eternal flames without a moments relief, surely, a loving Father would warn His child of this most terrible fate if it were true.

Since the Lord made no mention of this terrible fate of the unrepentant sinner, how is it that the sinner that the Lord said was mortal has now become immortal and live throughout all eternality even though it’s in hell. At what point did the mortal man became immortal spirit? I know that the Word of God doesn’t contradict itself, but something is not adding up here!

 

[Count Duckula]

I don't know how to get around the final judgment and the lake of fire in Revelation

 

[Royff]

No, we don’t get around the lake of fire, but the lake of fire is not for the soul to dwell in eternality, but for the destruction of that soul. Jesus made it clear that the soul is destroyed in hell, not to live eternally. The Word state; “the soul that sinneth shall die” the soul meaning the entire being of the man shall die. In God’s definition of death to Adam is that he will return to nothingness, as if he never existed.

The man is either immortal or he’s not. In my understanding of scripture, when the sinner is thrown into the lake of fire, that soul is destroyed and everything that is thrown into the lake of fire is destroyed except for the anti-Christ whose torment is forever.

 

[Count Duckula]

No, we don’t get around the lake of fire, but the lake of fire is not for the soul to dwell in eternality, but for the destruction of that soul. Jesus made it clear that the soul is destroyed in hell, not to live eternally. The Word state; “the soul that sinneth shall die” the soul meaning the entire being of the man shall die. In God’s definition of death to Adam is that he will return to nothingness, as if he never existed.

The man is either immortal or he’s not. In my understanding of scripture, when the sinner is thrown into the lake of fire, that soul is destroyed and everything that is thrown into the lake of fire is destroyed except for the anti-Christ whose torment is forever.

The devil and death will also be thrown in. How about them. Also, for the humans, isn't annihilation a JW teaching.

 

[Royff]

Annihilation is what God explain death to be to Adam, is this point the JW teaching is in agreement with the Book of Genesis. According to Revelation, death and hell will be destroyed, how is it destroyed if we have people in a constant state of death [hell] and hell and is destroyed? If that's the case, hell and death is never destroyed, but immortalized throughout all eternity. to destroy something means it no longer exist, how is it destroyed if it still exist?

 

[Corn Pop]

The lake of fire itself is what is eternal, not nessesarily everything thats in it, aside from the devil, beast and false prophet.

Cast into the eternal fire just means as far as I can see, maybe I'm wrong, but the fire is eternal, it doesn't mean whoever is cast in it is there for eternity.

 

[Corn Pop]

The Father of Truth
The Spirit of Truth
The Son of Truth

The father of all lies.
The spirit of the antichrist.
The false prophet son of all lies.

"...this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

 

[chessman]

Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?
1. Yes, in the same way as John's vision in Revelation (written by John as the last of all other Scripture) of Seven Headed Beasts with lion feet and bear mouths or a Fire-Red Dragon which sweeps away stars are Scriptural.

2. Rev 20:10 is the only verse in the entire Bible (the only Scripture, that is) that speaks of "Eternal Torment". And it's not even a vision of lost post-judged people's torment but rather eternal torment of the Devil and His demons (who evidently cannot die a first death ("return to the dust") much less a second death at the hands of God.

Verify my two claims for yourself (it really is true). Let the facts, 'sink in'. And think of the implications:

1. This one and only passage is just flat-out not directly applicable to humans one way or the other (literal or symbolic). It's about The Devil and his demons, not humans.

2. What about all the Christians (or Jewish saints for that matter or, as you point out, what God told Adam) that died a first death prior to reading John's Scriptural vision??? They were all told that the wages of unforgiven sin is death/destruction/perishing (not torment), all the way back to Adam??? What did they think of Eternal Torment as taught in Scripture??? If they'd never even heard of John's vision in Rev 20:10, they knew that death/destruction/perishing awaited the lost (just as God told Adam and is repeated numerous times all throughout Scripture).

3. Shouldn't a highly symbolic passage such as depicted all throughout Revelation be understood from its Scripturally inspired interpretation, not it's imagery??? All throughout the book of Revelation, various images/visions are seen by John and then the angel (or Jesus Himself as the case may be) then interprets what John just saw and specifically says what the vision literally means. The imagery of the final fate of the lost humans is not different. It's specifically interpreted to be a second death at the hand of God this time (not human hands). We are Scripturally told to fear God who is able to destroy both the soul and the body of the lost as they are cast into Hell.

p.s. It's not Scriptural evidence (for or against answering your question) what JW's believe/teach about any given subject.

 

[Royff]

Many people believe that because JW believe and teach something its got to be wrong, but that’s not true, most cults have some truths in them. That is the trick, they mix lies and deception in with the truth. Where JW are wrong at is in denying the deity of Jesus the Christ, but in denying the immortality of the soul they are correct.

 

[Royff]

So then you agree that it not scriptural as it is preach by most believers that the soul of the unrepentant sinner will suffer in eternal in flames throughout all eternity without a moments rest?

 

[Royff]

Think about something, we mortals are born through no fault of our own conceived in sin and shaped in the inequity of our parents, the cards stacked against us from the start. Constantly attacked by the temptations of the world and Satan from the start, for that soul to live 25 years and die and have to suffer this horrible price, I believe is not of a loving God to do such a thing who knows that in away, the cards are stacked against us from the start.

 

[Count Duckula]

Revelation 20:15 KJV
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't see the part where the Bible says that they burn up for a while and then cease to exist.

 

[JLB]

No, we don’t get around the lake of fire, but the lake of fire is not for the soul to dwell in eternality, but for the destruction of that soul.

How long does the destruction last?


in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

• These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

JLB

 

[Royff]

It is the destruction that is eternal, there is no resurrection from this destruction. Where as in the destruction of the physical body in the first death, even though the physical body was destroyed it is resurrected. But in this second death its the soul that is destroyed for the soul there is no resurrection, this death is eternal, the flames of God that destroys the soul is eternal flame. Our God is a consuming eternal fire, but the soul of man is not eternal but is consumed by this eternal flame of the Lord. It is the flame that is eternal, not what's consumed by it.

 

[chessman]

So then you agree that it not scriptural as it is preach by most believers that the soul of the unrepentant sinner will suffer in eternal in flames throughout all eternity without a moments rest?

Pretty much, yes.

However, I don't know what most believers preach, I haven't done a statistical survey. Nor do I think the percentages of preaching for/against ECT ultimately matter to what the Scriptures say.

I do know it's very common for preachers today (and for most of church history in fact, though not all of history) to preach Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell versus Eternal Destruction of the body and soul in Hell. I had a former pastor, for example, once say from the pulpit; "For the wages of sin is Eternal Concise Torment in Hell" (as if there's a verse in the Bible that says such a thing). There isn't, of course. I found it odd (indeed contradictory to Scripture in answer to your question).

I also know that many Christian denominations (including Eastern and Western traditions, mainline protestants, and my own Southern Baptist) have within them theologians that differ on the answer to this question. Some preach ECT of the soul and body in Hell, some say ECT of just the soul, some preach destruction of the soul and body. The earliest Christian Creeds don't really address it one way or the other directly.

There always have been differing opinions on your OP question as can be read within the commentary of some of the Apostolic Church Fathers. Some early church fathers believed in ECT of lost souls and some believed in the destruction of the soul. (Another provable claim, upon request but one that doesn't really matter in the end to the OP question but does to your follow-up question)

 

[Royff]

Revelation 20:15 KJV
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't see the part where the Bible says that they burn up for a while and then cease to exist.

Whenever we find are teaching that’s hard understand and we must first scripture to see what the Lord had to say on that subject. I think we all have some understanding of what the word “destroy” means. Jesus said God destroys both body and soul in hell, most people can’t stand the thought of non-existence, they would rather [or so they think] spend eternality in hell than to not exist; therefore, the creation of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul.
“For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.” [Obadiah 1:16] KJV

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.” [Malachi 4:1] KJV

The word of God states they will be burned up, leaving neither root nor branch. If as the Word states that it’s the spirit that lives and not the flash, then it is the spirit that is the root of man. But according to the Word of God this root is to be burned up and nothing left of it. The second death, eternal non-existence.

 

[Eugene]

the Lord explained the meaning of death.
Is Eternal Torment Scriptural?

Are the beast & the false prophet men with eternal life? What of the devil; does he have eternal life?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Royff]

Are the beast & the false prophet men with eternal life? What of the devil; does he have eternal life?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

When I speak of immortality here, I’m not speaking of super natural spirit beings here, but fleshly men with physical bodies. Now as I understand scripture the anti-Christ will be the incarnation of Satan himself. So, the man [physical being] , that becomes Satan becomes whatever Satan is, if Satan is an immortal being then the man that becomes Satan in the flesh seem to me to become immortal because he has become Satan himself. I would expect the same thing with the beast and the false prophet, they have become demons incarnated. If the fallen angels of hell are immortal, then the demon incarnated will probably be immortal.

But these are the only three evil men that the bible speaks of as being immortal. It seems to me that the men who allow demons or fallen angels to incarnate in them were given the desire of their hearts, to be immortal gods, but to suffer because of the destruction they caused to God’ creation. These sinners are not like other sinners, they seated themselves on the Throne of God as God and had the entire inhabited earth bow before them as God. They defile the Holy Trinity [the Family of God] like no other ever has, maybe this is God’s way of giving them the desire of their heart. But this is the only people I see in the Word of God that are unrepentant sinners who are given eternal life, all other will experience the second death from which there is no resurrection; eternal nom-existence!

 

[Eugene]

When I speak of immortality here, I’m not speaking of super natural spirit beings here, but fleshly men with physical bodies. Now as I understand scripture the anti-Christ will be the incarnation of Satan himself. So, the man [physical being] , that becomes Satan becomes whatever Satan is, if Satan is an immortal being then the man that becomes Satan in the flesh seem to me to become immortal because he has become Satan himself.

That said, what do you think of these following scriptures as applying to unbelievers?
Joh 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father.
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil

 

[Royff]

I believe here Jesus is speaking of Satan being their spiritual fathers, their god and not the physical seed of Satan, like some claim that Cain was the physical seed of Satan. I do not believe that this is what Jesus was speaking of. Remember, when Peter became a stumbling black to Jesus, Jesus said to him, get thee behind me Satan. Surely, Jesus wasn’t calling Peter the physical seed of Satan, but the spirit that was working in Peter at the time, though Peter didn’t know it. I don’t believe any of these people were evil incarnated but controlled by the spirit of Satan at certain time, but not fallen angels incarnated in man.