Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

[Grubal Muruch]

Some believe "faith" is a necessity to being saved, others believe works are necessary. which do you believe ?

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm leaning towards Calvinism, so take that into account when I answer.

I'd say faith is a gift from God and works follow faith ("faith without works is dead"; from a Calvinist perspective, I guess you could say someone with this "dead faith" was never truly converted). Considering that "works" can involve things as seemingly insignificant as giving a thirsty person a drink of water to quench their thirst, I don't think we all need to rush out and adopt bunches of babies from the the 3rd world or donate our kidneys to strangers or anything. Faith is given by God to transform someone so that they come to more closely resemble Christ in character; works go along with this transformation.

 

[kjb1769]

Works you or I do have nothing to do with our salvation.

Believing on Jesus Christ trusting in what he did for you accepting the free (to you) gift of his works that he did by his faith is how you can be saved.

Thanks be to God.

 

[Danus]

Works are pointless for salvation due to the very fallen nature of man. Man can do good works, but it is not enough because man is not good enough regardless of his own efforts or will to be sinless. God tells us in the Bible that all the troubles in the world are due to sin. All of mankind is sinful, thus separated from the holiness of God.

Isaiah 59:2 But your sinful acts have alienated you from your God; your sins have caused him to reject you and not listen to your prayers.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

( I can dig up more)

The Bible makes it clear that man is sinful, the world is fallen due to the disobedience of man, but what is this "SIN"? Surely sin is more than ten different opinions from ten different people. Is there any final authority on this subject? It's not me, it's not you, and it's not some man-made definition of what some "group" of other men say it is. God is the only final authority of what sin is.

The Bible says that sin is a "heart" condition. It is a condition of rebellion against God, which stems from pride. The Bible even refers to pride as "original sin." The Hebrew definition of the word sin means "to miss the mark." God created us to be like Him, but our pride and rebellion make us fall far short of that purpose. Our actions, though they may be "sinful" are really only the fruit of our rebellion against God. Our outward actions merely mirror our true inner condition. It is our true inner condition that God is concerned with. He knows the "real you" better than you yourself do, because he sees "the inner man" and all your secret thoughts and motives.

Hebrews 4:13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

Man is rittled with sin. Sin is mixed in to the very nature of man and man can't rid himself of it any more than he can unscramble an egg. His own efforts in this matter are fruitless and his attempts only make him more separated by his own pride. Jesus found many of these types in his day.

Matthew 23:27-28: 27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

The law given to the Jew's points to the real salvation. The law was an an·ti·type: Something that is represented by a symbol. In this case the law is/was symbolic of Jesus Christ. Yet we had many people who claimed to hold the law then, and even people today that claim to hold it, or some semblance of it, just like the Pharisees of Jesus day who thought they where saved by their own good works.

So then how is one saved if he can't keep the law? well, Jesus Christ came to fulfill the law and he did. He was the perfect sacrifice. He is the law and he is the only one kept the law, but not only that, he fulfilled it. He completed it. He did what you and I can not do, and he did it because we can't. He did it for us, but we have to accept that, and accepting that is how we are saved. By accepting that in our hearts becomes a bridge to the one we are separated from; God.

Titus 3:5-7 he saved us, not by works of righteousness that we have done but on the basis of his mercy, through the washing of the new birth and the renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us in full measure through Jesus Christ our Savior. 7 And so, since we have been justified by his grace, we become heirs with the confident expectation of eternal life.

To answer you question, the Bible clearly says that men and women can only find salvation in Christ Jesus. Not of what they do, but of what he did. To accept that requires a measure of faith and those who do not have this, will continue to do their works, or they will reject it all together.

 

[Drew]

Some believe "faith" is a necessity to being saved, others believe works are necessary. which do you believe ?

As you know, I believe this question poses a false choice.

One cannot presume that this is an "either / or" issue.

Paul's position is, I believe, that faith results in the gift of the Spirit which changes a person's life so that they will generally persist in doing good. And what is the result that persistence? Paul tells here:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

 

[Danus]

As you know, I believe this question poses a false choice.

One cannot presume that this is an "either / or" issue.

I'm requesting this be moved to the A&T section However I want to tackle this just a bit.

GM's question is not a false dilemma because he is asking "Is faith or works necessary for salvation?" However....it can be seen as a false dilemma if we expand on it, which is what he most likely intends to do anyway.

When it comes to salvation and faith and works, I think there is one very powerful piece of scripture that sums it up.

Ephesians 2:8-9: 9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, then the expansion does involve works, but those works are a result of faith.

GM believes that faith is something one musters up within themselves by their own effort and in so doing faith is the work of the individual rather than a gift from God. That right GM?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Faith has always been what pleases God. Beginning in the Old Testament (Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness.) Jesus was "amazed" by the faith of the "Centurion." The woman who reached out to touch the hem of Jesus garment, was "healed" by her faith. These are but a few examples of what faith can accomplish. Jesus said, faith can move mountains. When Peter jumped off the boat and began walking on the water (to meet Jesus who was doing the same) Peter began to look around and become scared of his situation and began to sink, Jesus reached out to secure him, But Jesus said, Ye of little "faith" why did you doubt ? Some were instances where faith has "initiated" something special that "lack of faith" could not...And some are situations where "lack of faith" was a problem...

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (The Bible says.) When we first hear the "word of our Salvation" (God's Grace) we then, are "able" (by the gift of free choice to believe) God however, does not force us to believe but, gives us the "choice" to believe or not... I believe the Holy Spirit "strives" with men's hearts throughout their life to bring them to the truth of God's mercy and forgiveness through Christ...

 

[Drew]

I'm requesting this be moved to the A&T section However I want to tackle this just a bit.

GM's question is not a false dilemma because he is asking "Is faith or works necessary for salvation?" However....it can be seen as a false dilemma if we expand on it, which is what he most likely intends to do anyway.

When it comes to salvation and faith and works, I think there is one very powerful piece of scripture that sums it up.

Ephesians 2:8-9: 9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

This is one of the most pervasively misunderstood texts in the whole Bible.

Paul is not denying salvation by "good works", he is denying that salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works” line, it is the “works of Law of Moses” line.

<O</OThere is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyed”, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

<O</OIn other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)”

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "thereforeyou Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of the Law of Moses in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since the Law of Moses is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.

Paul means what he says in Romans 2:7


To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life


Danus, let me ask you this question: What do you think Paul is saying in this statement from Romans 2?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

As you know, I believe this question poses a false choice.

One cannot presume that this is an "either / or" issue.

Paul's position is, I believe, that faith results in the gift of the Spirit which changes a person's life so that they will generally persist in doing good. And what is the result that persistence? Paul tells here:

To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life

It's not "Our" persistence in doing good works that saves us. It's the sacrifice Christ did on the cross that saves us... Paul is talking about the "characteristics" of a true believer. He does good works, seeks glory, honor, etc... It's not the works of a man that gains him eternal life, it's the fact that he is, "in Christ" that matters...

 

[Drew]

It's not "Our" persistence in doing good works that saves us. It's the sacrifice Christ did on the cross that saves us... Paul is talking about the "characteristics" of a true believer. He does good works, seeks glory, honor, etc... It's not the works of a man that gains him eternal life, it's the fact that he is, "in Christ" that matters...

It is difficult to respond to this, since you are clearly not reading the text properly.

The text is not, as you suggest, a description of the characteristics of the believer.

It is what it is - a statement about who gets eternal life. And the ones who get that life are the ones who persist in doing good.

Now we agree - only those with faith will do these good works. But you cannot re-work the text. It clearly asserts that the "criteria" for the awarding of eternal life is "persistence in doing good". In fact, the preceding verse makes it clear beyond doubt that the eternal life is granted ACCORDING TO what we have done:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done

Let's focus on where we agree - we agree that the only persons who will "persist in doing good" are "faith-grounded Christians". So in that sense "faith" ensures final salvation.

But the text still says what it says - the thing that God looks at to award eternal life is "persistence in doing good".

 

[Danus]

This is one of the most pervasively misunderstood texts in the whole Bible.

Paul is not denying salvation by "good works", he is denying that salvation by doing the works of the Law of Moses.

The material that follows 2:8-10 makes no sense if "good works" are in view in 2:8-10. More specifically, if the justification value of "good works" is being denied, why does Paul use a "therefore" transitional in verse 11 to conclude that the Gentile now has access to the covenant promises (including, of course, final justification) specifically because a dividing line between Jew and Gentile has been dissolved? After all, the dividing line is, of course, not the “good works†line, it is the “works of Law of Moses†line.

<o</oThere is indeed a sense in which the standard reformed reading of this could be salvaged (although this ultimately does not work as we will shortly see). If Paul says “no one is justified by good works, therefore remember that the Jew-Gentile barrier has been destroyedâ€, he could mean that there is some difference between the Jew and the Gentile in respect to doing good works, but this difference is irrelevant since good works do not justify.

<o</oIn other words, he could be saying: "Listen you Gentiles, you need not do the good works that the Jews are doing to be saved since good works do not save anyway, therefore...you are not foreigners to the covenants of the promise, etc., etc.)â€

But, of course, Paul does not believe this - he believes that Jew and Gentile alike are in sin. So it makes no sense for Paul, if he has really asserted that "good works" do not save, to then say "thereforeyou Gentiles now have hope since the barrier between Jew and Gentile has been destroyed, etc. etc." Why does this not make sense? Obviously, because Jew and Gentile are on equal footing in respect to "good works" – neither does enough good works to save.

Paul is therefore obviously talking about the works of the Law of Moses in 2:8-10. Then the "therefore" stuff makes sense since the Law of Moses is indeed the thing that divides Jew from Gentile and is the basis for the Gentile believing that he is on the outside in respect to the covenant promises.

Paul means what he says in Romans 2:7


To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life


Danus, let me ask you this question: What do you think Paul is saying in this statement from Romans 2?

Your prelude suggest that I am misunderstanding the verse, but thank you for asking me the question at the end.

Keep in mind, we are talking about "SALVATION". I am saying it's of faith which is a gift from God, not something we create or choose consciously within ourselves, although I agree we might think we do.

That said, I am understanding the full context of what Paul is saying in Ephesians much the same way you are describing, but I am using 8-9 to set the tone, or I should remind all, that Paul is using it to set the tone before he is expanding on the rest.
Ephesians 2:8-15

New International Version (NIV)

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29238">8</sup> For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29239">9</sup> not by works, so that no one can boast. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29240">10</sup> For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
Jew and Gentile Reconciled Through Christ

<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29241">11</sup> Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised†by those who call themselves “the circumcision†(which is done in the body by human hands)— <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29242">12</sup> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29243">13</sup> But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29244">14</sup> For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV-29245">15</sup> by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,


So at the heart of this issue is "Where does faith come from"? I'll ask you that question. But, let's again be reminded of the OP and the question: " Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?"

Paul seems to say that it is a measure of both, but let's play chicken or the egg. Which comes first and where does it come from?

 

[Danus]

It's not "Our" persistence in doing good works that saves us. It's the sacrifice Christ did on the cross that saves us... Paul is talking about the "characteristics" of a true believer. He does good works, seeks glory, honor, etc... It's not the works of a man that gains him eternal life, it's the fact that he is, "in Christ" that matters...

...Agreed. We are still standing at the hole of how man get's to salvation.

 

[Danus]

It is difficult to respond to this, since you are clearly not reading the text properly.

The text is not, as you suggest, a description of the characteristics of the believer.

.

I think GM is speaking in a broad sense, not necessarily addressing a specific scripture.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I'm requesting this be moved to the A&T section However I want to tackle this just a bit.

GM's question is not a false dilemma because he is asking "Is faith or works necessary for salvation?" However....it can be seen as a false dilemma if we expand on it, which is what he most likely intends to do anyway.

When it comes to salvation and faith and works, I think there is one very powerful piece of scripture that sums it up.

Ephesians 2:8-9: 9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

So, then the expansion does involve works, but those works are a result of faith.

GM believes that faith is something one musters up within themselves by their own effort and in so doing faith is the work of the individual rather than a gift from God. That right GM?

The Scripture you speak of is, Ephesians 2:8-9 which states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; ( What is not of ourselves ? the answer is, "grace" and not our works) it is the gift of God, (what IS the gift of God ? "God's grace" is the gift, it's not speaking about faith here, it speaks of God's grace as being the "gift") not of works, lest anyone should boast...

God created us with an ability to be able to "choose" what we believe. That's something God built into ALL of us. Faith plays an integral part in our Salvation, without it we cannot be saved...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

I think GM is speaking in a broad sense, not necessarily addressing a specific scripture.

No. I was addressing his chosen Scripture...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

It is difficult to respond to this, since you are clearly not reading the text properly.

The text is not, as you suggest, a description of the characteristics of the believer.

It is what it is - a statement about who gets eternal life. And the ones who get that life are the ones who persist in doing good.

Now we agree - only those with faith will do these good works. But you cannot re-work the text. It clearly asserts that the "criteria" for the awarding of eternal life is "persistence in doing good". In fact, the preceding verse makes it clear beyond doubt that the eternal life is granted ACCORDING TO what we have done:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done

Let's focus on where we agree - we agree that the only persons who will "persist in doing good" are "faith-grounded Christians". So in that sense "faith" ensures final salvation.

But the text still says what it says - the thing that God looks at to award eternal life is "persistence in doing good".

You say-----Now we agree - only those with faith will do these good works. But you cannot re-work the text. It clearly asserts that the "criteria" for the awarding of eternal life is "persistence in doing good". In fact, the preceding verse makes it clear beyond doubt that the eternal life is granted ACCORDING TO what we have done:

Grubal-----But, Paul is only speaking about the true believer, the one who's sins were taken care of at the cross. And he (the believer) has been "born-again Spiritually" and that has nothing to do with works...Paul only is speaking about the "characteristics" of that man...

 

[Danus]

The Scripture you speak of is, Ephesians 2:8-9 which states, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; ( What is not of ourselves ? the answer is, "grace" and not our works) it is the gift of God, (what IS the gift of God ? "God's grace" is the gift, it's not speaking about faith here, it speaks of God's grace as being the "gift") not of works, lest anyone should boast...

..

no my friend. the "That" is referring to efforts of our own. And it includes what we think is our own faith. two thing that are gifts from God, grace and faith.

 

[Grubal Muruch]

no my friend. the "That" is referring to efforts of our own. And it includes what we think is our own faith. two thing that are gifts from God, grace and faith.

Your correct when you say the "that" is referring to efforts of our own. That's "not" what I was disputing however. That were agreeing upon. But did you read the rest of my interpretation ?

 

[Grubal Muruch]

Your correct when you say the "that" is referring to efforts of our own. That's "not" what I was disputing however. That were agreeing upon. But did you read the rest of my interpretation ?

The "gift" of faith you speak of, is given to ALL of humanity. We're all able to choose what
we believe or not...

 

[Grubal Muruch]

no my friend. the "That" is referring to efforts of our own. And it includes what we think is our own faith. two thing that are gifts from God, grace and faith.

How do you explain the woman who reached out to touch the hem of Christ's garment and His response ? How do you explain the Centurions faith and how Christ was so impressed with it. ? How do you explain Peters (walking on water experience) and how Christ said to him Ye of little faith why did you doubt. These are all examples of human faith or lack of in some instances. Christ said you can move mountains with faith. One man said to Christ, I believe help my unbelief and Christ did...