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Is faith or works necessary for Salvation ?

Danus

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Ah, I get it. When you do it, it's called surrender. When we do it, it's called choice.

So what we do is wrong, and what you do is right.

Now, there's something that makes a lot of sense............

You do realize, don't you, that to surrender means you're doing something in your own will.

I certainly hope you can understand what I'm saying here.

I never said "what" your doing is wrong. You brought up free will and said that man chooses god by his free will. I disagree, but if you agree that he does, then go with that.

Also, so we are clear giving up your free will to the will of God is not ones self effort, but the effort of God upon man.

I did not come to Christ. I gave up, and Christ was there for me. I accepted him then. I do not think that what I am saying to you means that I'm saved and your not, or that your wrong, but what you and GM need to understand is that people who understand John Calvin, do so because, 1 it fit's what they know of their own salvation and 2 it is biblicaly correct.

I do not make a conscious effort to be a Christian. I have a responsibility within my relationship with God, but my efforts are worthless. I'm simply describing it for you.

I did not want to be a Christian, know how to be, I did try very hard early in my life but decided it was pointless for me and lived a life of an agnostic. I reached a point where I gave up....not seeking God, really, but I did pray then, and God grabbed hold of me from that point on. I did not ask him to, he just did.

Since then it's been an interesting relationship. :), one of edification and direction. I am reminded in my life of what he did then and how it changed me, and I listen to God. I do what he tells me. Sometimes I find my old will trying to do something, and I am reminded that it is no Good.

What you have described about being a Christian is wrong to me because it's works based. Not to say that people don't come to Christ in a manner of speaking, and are saved through their own desire to be with Christ, but what you have described is works based, Then you sprinkle faith on top, but what I think you mean by faith is belief. Christianity is more than that, but again, What you have described is not all together wrong, but rather weak.

Now I know you are angry with this. I know, there may be some misunderstandings. It is not my intent to anger you, but to challenge you to give more thought to theologies you may not fully understand.
 
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glorydaz

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I never said "what" your doing is wrong. You brought up free will and said that man chooses god by his free will. I disagree, but if you agree that he does, then go with that.

Also, so we are clear giving up your free will to the will of God is not ones self effort, but the effort of God upon man.

I did not come to Christ. I gave up, and Christ was there for me. I accepted him then. I do not think that what I am saying to you means that I'm saved and your not, or that your wrong, but what you and GM need to understand is that people who understand John Calvin, do so because, 1 it fit's what they know of their own salvation and 2 it is biblicaly correct.

I do not make a conscious effort to be a Christian. I have a responsibility within my relationship with God, but my efforts are worthless. I'm simply describing it for you.

I did not want to be a Christian, know how to be, I did try very hard early in my life but decided it was pointless for me and lived a life of an agnostic. I reached a point where I gave up....not seeking God, really, but I did pray then, and God grabbed hold of me from that point on. I did not ask him to, he just did.

Since then it's been an interesting relationship. :), one of edification and direction. I am reminded in my life of what he did then and how it changed me, and I listen to God. I do what he tells me. Sometimes I find my old will trying to do something, and I am reminded that it is no Good.

What you have described about being a Christian is wrong to me because it's works based. Not to say that people don't come to Christ in a manner of speaking, and are saved through their own desire to be with Christ, but what you have described is works based, Then you sprinkle faith on top, but what I think you mean by faith is belief. Christianity is more than that, but again, What you have described is not all together wrong, but rather weak.

Now I know you are angry with this. I know, there may be some misunderstandings. It is not my intent to anger you, but to challenge you to give more thought to theologies you may not fully understand.

First, let me assure you, I'm not in the least bit angry with what you say.

In the above, you said, "Also, so we are clear giving up your free will to the will of God is not ones self effort, but the effort of God upon man."

That sounds like you think you don't have to do anything but sit back and God will change you.
I say good luck with that one. ;)

The Holy Spirit does the work, but He needs something to work with. There's an old saying about the sanctification process, we won't see God's operation without our co-operation.

Here, Paul addresses the church in Corinth. These believers were still needing to be fed the milk of the Word. They weren't becoming mature believers because they thought as you do.

1 Cor. 3:1 Corinthians 3:1-4 said:
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

There is a lot the believer has to do in order to mature in the Lord. If you're interested, we could discuss that. If you think you're plenty mature...more mature than I am, for instance, then I won't burden you with what it takes to pursue holiness.
 

Danus

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First, let me assure you, I'm not in the least bit angry with what you say.

In the above, you said, "Also, so we are clear giving up your free will to the will of God is not ones self effort, but the effort of God upon man."

That sounds like you think you don't have to do anything but sit back and God will change you.
I say good luck with that one. ;)

The Holy Spirit does the work, but He needs something to work with. There's an old saying about the sanctification process, we won't see God's operation without our co-operation.

Here, Paul addresses the church in Corinth. These believers were still needing to be fed the milk of the Word. They weren't becoming mature believers because they thought as you do.



There is a lot the believer has to do in order to mature in the Lord. If you're interested, we could discuss that. If you think you're plenty mature...more mature than I am, for instance, then I won't burden you with what it takes to pursue holiness.

:lol...I understand you. Your right it does sound like I'm saying that. :)

I don't measure myself as more or less spiritually mature, but it's interesting that you are willing to explain things to me if I feel less than you, but not, it seems willing to be very inquisitive of me in regards of what I've said.

I thank you for your offer, but my background is well versed within the Armenian theology, and again, I'm not dismissing it for others. That sounds as if I'm belittling it I know, but there is no way I know of expressing this.

So, I'd rather leave the door open for your questions, making myself available to you. This thread, and many more like it, are started to challenge reformist doctrines. There are varieties of Armenians, but the basic idea is that Man hears the word of God and says, I want to be a Christian, and accepts the offer so to speak.

Again, this is extremely logical :) and on the surface I absolutely have no problem with it, but it's also very weak. It's not the deeper relationship that I have experienced with God. IN fact it is the very thing that drove me away from God.

Let me say something about Calvinist. (A term I don't like BTW)
Calvinist are hard headed and strong willed. We tend to be intelectual. We think we are pretty darn smart, and we are, and that's our problem. We are so smart I think that God actually has to come down and grab us up, otherwise we'd never choose him.

What I'm attempting to do is to get you to see the reformist view. This thread asked a question, is works or faith required for salvation?

From what you've written , you should know that works are a joke. However, you place an emphasis on works, on mans effort. I'm not sure how you treat faith, but it seems equal if not secondary.

I place 100% in faith only. Works are a by product of faith for me. :)
 

glorydaz

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:lol...I understand you. Your right it does sound like I'm saying that. :)

I don't measure myself as more or less spiritually mature, but it's interesting that you are willing to explain things to me if I feel less than you, but not, it seems willing to be very inquisitive of me in regards of what I've said.

I thank you for your offer, but my background is well versed within the Armenian theology, and again, I'm not dismissing it for others. That sounds as if I'm belittling it I know, but there is no way I know of expressing this.

So, I'd rather leave the door open for your questions, making myself available to you. This thread, and many more like it, are started to challenge reformist doctrines. There are varieties of Armenians, but the basic idea is that Man hears the word of God and says, I want to be a Christian, and accepts the offer so to speak.

Again, this is extremely logical :) and on the surface I absolutely have no problem with it, but it's also very weak. It's not the deeper relationship that I have experienced with God. IN fact it is the very thing that drove me away from God.

Let me say something about Calvinist. (A term I don't like BTW)
Calvinist are hard headed and strong willed. We tend to be intelectual. We think we are pretty darn smart, and we are, and that's our problem. We are so smart I think that God actually has to come down and grab us up, otherwise we'd never choose him.

What I'm attempting to do is to get you to see the reformist view. This thread asked a question, is works or faith required for salvation?

From what you've written , you should know that works are a joke. However, you place an emphasis on works, on mans effort. I'm not sure how you treat faith, but it seems equal if not secondary.

I place 100% in faith only. Works are a by product of faith for me. :)

I have a problem with anyone who considers themselves to be smarter than the other guy.
Romans 12:3 said:
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

There is no way I would study anyone's particular doctrine that, as I've clearly seen already, runs contrary to the Word of God. Nothing against you, personally, but why study up on error when we have the Truth set before us and can read directly from the Word of God?

Pride in one's own "understanding" seems to sow discord among the brethern. Something you might want to keep in mind as you share what you see from the Word. Constantly alluding to Calvin or the Armenians seems to me to be counter productive to the study of the Word.

Proverbs 6:16-19 said:
These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

One last point. You say, "Man hears the word of God and says, I want to be a Christian, and accepts the offer so to speak." That is not the case at all. It tells me you have no clear understanding of what I've said. When we hear the gospel message, our sin appears as filthy rags next to the light given off by our Saviour. We repent and believe. We could turn away and decide we enjoy our sins too much to leave them, but we don't. You can continue to belittle that, but it doesn't make it any less true.
 

Grubal Muruch

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I have a problem with anyone who considers themselves to be smarter than the other guy.


There is no way I would study anyone's particular doctrine that, as I've clearly seen already, runs contrary to the Word of God. Nothing against you, personally, but why study up on error when we have the Truth set before us and can read directly from the Word of God?

Pride in one's own "understanding" seems to sow discord among the brethern. Something you might want to keep in mind as you share what you see from the Word. Constantly alluding to Calvin or the Armenians seems to me to be counter productive to the study of the Word.



One last point. You say, "Man hears the word of God and says, I want to be a Christian, and accepts the offer so to speak." That is not the case at all. It tells me you have no clear understanding of what I've said. When we hear the gospel message, our sin appears as filthy rags next to the light given off by our Saviour. We repent and believe. We could turn away and decide we enjoy our sins too much to leave them, but we don't. You can continue to belittle that, but it doesn't make it any less true.

Well articulated!!! Substantiated by wisdom and truth!!!
 

Grubal Muruch

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:lol...I understand you. Your right it does sound like I'm saying that. :)

I don't measure myself as more or less spiritually mature, but it's interesting that you are willing to explain things to me if I feel less than you, but not, it seems willing to be very inquisitive of me in regards of what I've said.

I thank you for your offer, but my background is well versed within the Armenian theology, and again, I'm not dismissing it for others. That sounds as if I'm belittling it I know, but there is no way I know of expressing this.

So, I'd rather leave the door open for your questions, making myself available to you. This thread, and many more like it, are started to challenge reformist doctrines. There are varieties of Armenians, but the basic idea is that Man hears the word of God and says, I want to be a Christian, and accepts the offer so to speak.

Again, this is extremely logical :) and on the surface I absolutely have no problem with it, but it's also very weak. It's not the deeper relationship that I have experienced with God. IN fact it is the very thing that drove me away from God.

Let me say something about Calvinist. (A term I don't like BTW)
Calvinist are hard headed and strong willed. We tend to be intelectual. We think we are pretty darn smart, and we are, and that's our problem. We are so smart I think that God actually has to come down and grab us up, otherwise we'd never choose him.

What I'm attempting to do is to get you to see the reformist view. This thread asked a question, is works or faith required for salvation?

From what you've written , you should know that works are a joke. However, you place an emphasis on works, on mans effort. I'm not sure how you treat faith, but it seems equal if not secondary.

I place 100% in faith only. Works are a by product of faith for me. :)

danus---- the basic idea is that Man hears the word of God and says, I want to be a Christian, and accepts the offer so to speak.

Grubal-----Your not being fair to the fundamentals of the process, when you address the subject with an "over simplification" of the subject material...You just don't,"hear the word" and automatically adhere to all of it's principle truths... The Spirit plays a "huge" part in the process. We're only asked to place our "faith" in the finished "work" of Christ... Not every person that hear's the Gospel will respond and place their faith. Some will "walk away" Rest assured there is "only" one way to God and that's through the Son...

danus-----Let me say something about Calvinist. (A term I don't like BTW)
Calvinist are hard headed and strong willed. We tend to be intelectual. We think we are pretty darn smart, and we are, and that's our problem. We are so smart I think that God actually has to come down and grab us up, otherwise we'd never choose him.

Grubal-----1 Corinthian 1:27 states,"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" A higher "IQ" has nothing to do with the "Grace of God." Remember, God is not a respecter of men...Be you an Einstein or the dumbest guy on the block it doesn't matter...In the end "analysis" it doesn't matter if your rich, poor, attractive, unattractive, intelligent, not so, etc. God still offers His mercy and forgiveness to a "world of lost sinners." You can be intelligent and be a lost sinner or you can be a not so intelligent lost sinner. How do you "differentiate" between the two??? Can you answer that for me??? My final comment on this subject is, God does not have to, go out of His way to "save" the "intellect" Intelligence plays no part in the salvation plan of God. All are offered the same "Grace of God" without exception...

danus----From what you've written , you should know that works are a joke. However, you place an emphasis on works, on mans effort. I'm not sure how you treat faith, but it seems equal if not secondary.

Grubal--- I think you "obscure" the actual belief's that "glorydaz" holds, because of your own "agenda" You can "obviously" tell he does not "embrace" a works Gospel...

danus-----I place 100% in faith only. Works are a by product of faith for me.

Grubal----By that, do you mean that, we must first, place our faith in Christ before salvation occurs?? I have to be honest, I don't believe you do...
 

glorydaz

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danus-----Let me say something about Calvinist. (A term I don't like BTW)
Calvinist are hard headed and strong willed. We tend to be intelectual. We think we are pretty darn smart, and we are, and that's our problem. We are so smart I think that God actually has to come down and grab us up, otherwise we'd never choose him.

Grubal-----1 Corinthian 1:27 states,"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty" A higher "IQ" has nothing to do with the "Grace of God." Remember, God is not a respecter of men...Be you an Einstein or the dumbest guy on the block it doesn't matter...In the end "analysis" it doesn't matter if your rich, poor, attractive, unattractive, intelligent, not so, etc. God still offers His mercy and forgiveness to a "world of lost sinners." You can be intelligent and be a lost sinner or you can be a not so intelligent lost sinner. How do you "differentiate" between the two??? Can you answer that for me??? My final comment on this subject is, God does not have to, go out of His way to "save" the "intellect" Intelligence plays no part in the salvation plan of God. All are offered the same "Grace of God" without exception...

I say Amen to your whole post, Grubal, but your answer here, in particular, needs to be applauded.

I just don't see strong-willed, hard headed, smart or intellectual in this list, do you? ;)

Matthew 5:2-10 said:
Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
 

ivdavid

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Grubal Muruch said:
You seem to be overly concerned about getting answers, why?? Could it be, that, you think "highly" of my opinion?? or are you just the curious type??
Questions are asked to get answers, right? Anyway, that "highly" in quotes seems to be meant in a sarcastic tone - as if I look down upon your beliefs - which I assure you, I don't. I definitely disagree with your understanding of some parts of Scripture - and I do readily agree with your understanding in most other parts. This does not make me look at you any different from how I look at myself. And I'm guessing that's the case on your side too.

When Christians try to unite on truth, and when two persons such as you and I are firmly convinced on opposite sides of a doctrine, we do know what both of us are holding as true cannot be simultaneously true. At this point, I think it's fruitful to discuss our beliefs in light of Scripture and honestly examine where we really are sure or unsure of what we believe.

I do not believe I can ever convince a person against what he/she already believes in - that's a work of God alone. I only stick to identifying the root beliefs that we might differ on - resting on God to impress upon either of us the truth and folly in our beliefs, wherever they are.

As for me, I'd go along discussing till I reach a point where a contradiction seems to arise. This is the point I realize that some part of my understanding on God is not right. I wait upon Him to resolve the contradiction - where sometimes He changes my very belief - or He changes the understanding of the same belief. During this period of God's teaching me, I abstain from discussing anything related to this with anyone else. Essentially, if I have no perceived contradiction in the Word of God, I readily discuss it without being vague or ambiguous. If any contradiction has been impressed upon me, I take leave from all public discussions on this, and wait until the resolution is revealed to me.

Likewise, I expect anyone I discuss with to either state what he believes without hesitation - or to state that he wishes not to discuss until God permits him to. But if one wishes to state what he believes in, in quite ambiguous terms, it leads to the implication that there are certain beliefs concerning God that he's not comfortable witnessing to - and I don't wish anyone to be in such a state. Either we boldly proclaim the truth that God has revealed to us, or we get taught by God - while encouraging others to do the same.

Again, this pretty long post of mine is based on the fact that you are still hesitant to give direct responses. I do not know what your reason could be - I'm assuming my questions were clear enough. Your hesitation seems to imply that you're uncomfortable voicing out the implications of what you believe in - and if that's the case, I'd suggest you reconsider what you believe in. It could also be that you have thought it inappropriate to respond now for some other reason - I'd like to know if I could do anything to help resolve that.

The intent is never to just break down - rather it is always to build up, as this is how the Master Potter works. So, don't perceive me as trying to simply prove a point. I will also share my concerns on this subject -

Now, I believe that the common understanding of "freewill" is detrimental to the Christian walk - though I also believe that God is able to preserve us inspite of holding on to the concept of freewill. Perhaps believing in "freewill" could be harmless to most Christians, but I am quite aware of its potential to take us back under the law of works and apart from grace. It is out of this concern that I try and identify the root beliefs that could sway one this way or that.

So I neither thought poor of your opinions nor am I the curious type - I'd say I'm the concerned type.
 

Grubal Muruch

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Questions are asked to get answers, right? Anyway, that "highly" in quotes seems to be meant in a sarcastic tone - as if I look down upon your beliefs - which I assure you, I don't. I definitely disagree with your understanding of some parts of Scripture - and I do readily agree with your understanding in most other parts. This does not make me look at you any different from how I look at myself. And I'm guessing that's the case on your side too.

When Christians try to unite on truth, and when two persons such as you and I are firmly convinced on opposite sides of a doctrine, we do know what both of us are holding as true cannot be simultaneously true. At this point, I think it's fruitful to discuss our beliefs in light of Scripture and honestly examine where we really are sure or unsure of what we believe.

I do not believe I can ever convince a person against what he/she already believes in - that's a work of God alone. I only stick to identifying the root beliefs that we might differ on - resting on God to impress upon either of us the truth and folly in our beliefs, wherever they are.

As for me, I'd go along discussing till I reach a point where a contradiction seems to arise. This is the point I realize that some part of my understanding on God is not right. I wait upon Him to resolve the contradiction - where sometimes He changes my very belief - or He changes the understanding of the same belief. During this period of God's teaching me, I abstain from discussing anything related to this with anyone else. Essentially, if I have no perceived contradiction in the Word of God, I readily discuss it without being vague or ambiguous. If any contradiction has been impressed upon me, I take leave from all public discussions on this, and wait until the resolution is revealed to me.

Likewise, I expect anyone I discuss with to either state what he believes without hesitation - or to state that he wishes not to discuss until God permits him to. But if one wishes to state what he believes in, in quite ambiguous terms, it leads to the implication that there are certain beliefs concerning God that he's not comfortable witnessing to - and I don't wish anyone to be in such a state. Either we boldly proclaim the truth that God has revealed to us, or we get taught by God - while encouraging others to do the same.

Again, this pretty long post of mine is based on the fact that you are still hesitant to give direct responses. I do not know what your reason could be - I'm assuming my questions were clear enough. Your hesitation seems to imply that you're uncomfortable voicing out the implications of what you believe in - and if that's the case, I'd suggest you reconsider what you believe in. It could also be that you have thought it inappropriate to respond now for some other reason - I'd like to know if I could do anything to help resolve that.

The intent is never to just break down - rather it is always to build up, as this is how the Master Potter works. So, don't perceive me as trying to simply prove a point. I will also share my concerns on this subject -

Now, I believe that the common understanding of "freewill" is detrimental to the Christian walk - though I also believe that God is able to preserve us inspite of holding on to the concept of freewill. Perhaps believing in "freewill" could be harmless to most Christians, but I am quite aware of its potential to take us back under the law of works and apart from grace. It is out of this concern that I try and identify the root beliefs that could sway one this way or that.

So I neither thought poor of your opinions nor am I the curious type - I'd say I'm the concerned type.

I appreciate and respect your stand. However, I can't understand your reasoning about my "hesitancy" of answering questions?? When we speak to one another "audibly" there are certain "nuances" that might "give away" our reluctant answers. How could one possibly, gather that same info while reading someones "written" answer??"

We "diffidently disagree,so far as "free-will" as opposed to "predestination by election" goes... You see "the danger in my position" as I, yours...
 

glorydaz

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When Christians try to unite on truth, and when two persons such as you and I are firmly convinced on opposite sides of a doctrine, we do know what both of us are holding as true cannot be simultaneously true. At this point, I think it's fruitful to discuss our beliefs in light of Scripture and honestly examine where we really are sure or unsure of what we believe.

I do not believe I can ever convince a person against what he/she already believes in - that's a work of God alone. I only stick to identifying the root beliefs that we might differ on - resting on God to impress upon either of us the truth and folly in our beliefs, wherever they are.

This is what I really appreciate about you, ivdavid. Often times, I see that our understanding on a certain topic...such as free will, can be based on a misunderstanding of what the particular doctrine "usually" entails as opposed to what the other person actually believes. I like that you ask questions, rather than just assume.
 

glorydaz

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I appreciate and respect your stand. However, I can't understand your reasoning about my "hesitancy" of answering questions?? When we speak to one another "audibly" there are certain "nuances" that might "give away" our reluctant answers. How could one possibly, gather that same info while reading someones "written" answer??"

Case in point....I haven't read any "hesitancy" in your posts, although I often see some quiet humor. ;)

The Lord says, "Come now and let us reason together.."

Luke 24:14-15 said:
And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
 

Danus

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Psychologist refer to the mental state of pending physical death in terms of 5 stages. These stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

I find this interesting because to me it mirrors the similar stages of the death of ones own free will, or realizing they are spiritually dead and the accepting of God's will for their life; receiving a new nature from God; One of spiritual life, and everlasting life.

1 Denial. Either denial that God exist, (Atheist and Agnostics) Choosing to live within ones own free will. Willful sinners, ....or .....denial that one must give up one's will to start a relationship with God, choosing instead to willfully choose Christ.

There are people who take their free will and say, "I'm going to be a Christian and follow Christ"! This is great, but they still have a problem with their own free will, which is naturally in opposition to God's will, regardless of that persons best intentions.

God still has to deal with the will of man because even though someone willfully says they want to be a Christian, they are still living within their own free will, which is just as NO GOOD, and firmly in the way of true salvation, as any Atheist or willful sinner. It's a start, but inevitably leads to the next three stages, as these new said Christians set out to do their work they like to call the work of the Lord.

2.Anger at God, when things don't work out in their lives.

3.Bargaining with God, to make things work out as they would like.

4.Depression (which is the disparity between the reality of truth and ones own expectations) This happens a lot with Christians who feel they have failed to live up to God's standard, and you what? They are right, because no one can live up to God's standards, and he needs us to know that before we can truly accept the work of Jesus Christ.

What needs to happen is the final stage
5. Acceptance. (Born again Christians). This is the point where one realizes they are a sinner by their own free will, their own nature and that they can do nothing about it, but that God can. This is the point where one truly hands it over, truly trust God fully, and says "I am dead to myself; and in my opinion, receives a measure of faith in God choosing them, not them choosing God.

Does man Choose God? He sure thinks he does, but he does not. God chooses man, and he will choose whom he will choose for his Glory, not man's. However, this does not mean that those who seek him are not chosen, but still, some aren't and for those who do not understand the giving up of themselves this leaves a huge question mark. "I'm I saved?"

Give up trying to be a Christian. You can't do it. Give up and accept Christ. That's how you become a Christian. You can accept Christ and then give up, but you may not ever give up, and if you don't ever give up, then you can never truly accept Christ, because , It is not of your own doing, but of God's.

You can take the 5 best people who've ever lived, and merge their best qualities into one person and you will have a total failure before God based on God's standard and man's ability to meet that standard.

This is the difference between salvation by one's effort or works, which is not salvation at all, and true salvation by faith alone. But, does this mean that those who seek God are not saved? Are they not chosen? No it does not mean that. It's simply means that the gift of salvation does not come from man to God, but from God to man, and that it is of NO specific effort, or even desire on man's part to be saved. However, those how seek God will find him, but that effort to seek God does not mean one skips the condition necessary for true salvation, to give up ones own self, ones free will, and to understand just how utterly helpless they are FIRST.

The argument on this thread is that man some how saves himself by first choosing to accept God and then by being righteous. That is a works based salvation and it's not salvation at all. :sad
 

Acebopata

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Their is one work I know is necessary to be saved, and that's to trust in Jesus, accept him as your savor, and repent, or turn away form your sins.

I also believe people need to partake in a water baptism as soon as possable after receive Christ, but I also believe it's not required for basic salvation, and that there are people who the lord would gladly exempt because of disabilities and those living in extreme locations like in Alaska and such. It is important, though.

As for working to get into heaven, you can't earn your way into heaven. But their are five crown paul listed in one of the scriptures says could earn, and by doing certain things, like saving souls and looking for the lord's return with great happiness, you can earn different crowns.

So in response to the OP's question, The answer is yes, but no. Yes, because it takes work to pray the sinners prayer, but no, because there's nothing you can do to earn your way into heaven, only by the grace of Jesus.
 

glorydaz

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Psychologist refer to the mental state of pending physical death in terms of 5 stages. These stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.

I find this interesting because to me it mirrors the similar stages of the death of ones own free will, or realizing they are spiritually dead and the accepting of God's will for their life; receiving a new nature from God; One of spiritual life, and everlasting life.

1 Denial. Either denial that God exist, (Atheist and Agnostics) Choosing to live within ones own free will. Willful sinners, ....or .....denial that one must give up one's will to start a relationship with God, choosing instead to willfully choose Christ.

There are people who take their free will and say, "I'm going to be a Christian and follow Christ"! This is great, but they still have a problem with their own free will, which is naturally in opposition to God's will, regardless of that persons best intentions.

God still has to deal with the will of man because even though someone willfully says they want to be a Christian, they are still living within their own free will, which is just as NO GOOD, and firmly in the way of true salvation, as any Atheist or willful sinner. It's a start, but inevitably leads to the next three stages, as these new said Christians set out to do their work they like to call the work of the Lord.

2.Anger at God, when things don't work out in their lives.

3.Bargaining with God, to make things work out as they would like.

4.Depression (which is the disparity between the reality of truth and ones own expectations) This happens a lot with Christians who feel they have failed to live up to God's standard, and you what? They are right, because no one can live up to God's standards, and he needs us to know that before we can truly accept the work of Jesus Christ.

What needs to happen is the final stage
5. Acceptance. (Born again Christians). This is the point where one realizes they are a sinner by their own free will, their own nature and that they can do nothing about it, but that God can. This is the point where one truly hands it over, truly trust God fully, and says "I am dead to myself; and in my opinion, receives a measure of faith in God choosing them, not them choosing God.

Does man Choose God? He sure thinks he does, but he does not. God chooses man, and he will choose whom he will choose for his Glory, not man's. However, this does not mean that those who seek him are not chosen, but still, some aren't and for those who do not understand the giving up of themselves this leaves a huge question mark. "I'm I saved?"

Give up trying to be a Christian. You can't do it. Give up and accept Christ. That's how you become a Christian. You can accept Christ and then give up, but you may not ever give up, and if you don't ever give up, then you can never truly accept Christ, because , It is not of your own doing, but of God's.

You can take the 5 best people who've ever lived, and merge their best qualities into one person and you will have a total failure before God based on God's standard and man's ability to meet that standard.

This is the difference between salvation by one's effort or works, which is not salvation at all, and true salvation by faith alone. But, does this mean that those who seek God are not saved? Are they not chosen? No it does not mean that. It's simply means that the gift of salvation does not come from man to God, but from God to man, and that it is of NO specific effort, or even desire on man's part to be saved. However, those how seek God will find him, but that effort to seek God does not mean one skips the condition necessary for true salvation, to give up ones own self, ones free will, and to understand just how utterly helpless they are FIRST.

The argument on this thread is that man some how saves himself by first choosing to accept God and then by being righteous. That is a works based salvation and it's not salvation at all. :sad

You were doing pretty well until you started inserting your own bias. Much of what you wrote did indeed show a progression for those newly saved. Spiritual maturity takes time and as we meditate on the Word and obey the Lord's leading we become fathers instead of little children.

You also mis-state the argument. No one has said man saves Himself. Your understanding of man's part in the salvation process is colored by some major preconceptions, so it seems you don't listen or heed the scripture that's been presented. For instance, try to explain repentance in a way that doesn't involve man seeing himself as a sinner and then turning away from sin and following the light. Why are we told to open the door instead of seeing Christ barge right in uninvited. There are a few holes that need filled before you can charge someone with having a works-based salvation. That's certainly becoming a quick cop-out with absolutely no proof to back it up. Believing is not a work no matter how many times you claim it is.
 

Danus

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You were doing pretty well until you started inserting your own bias. Much of what you wrote did indeed show a progression for those newly saved. Spiritual maturity takes time and as we meditate on the Word and obey the Lord's leading we become fathers instead of little children.

You also mis-state the argument. No one has said man saves Himself. Your understanding of man's part in the salvation process is colored by some major preconceptions, so it seems you don't listen or heed the scripture that's been presented. For instance, try to explain repentance in a way that doesn't involve man seeing himself as a sinner and then turning away from sin and following the light. Why are we told to open the door instead of seeing Christ barge right in uninvited. There are a few holes that need filled before you can charge someone with having a works-based salvation. That's certainly becoming a quick cop-out with absolutely no proof to back it up. Believing is not a work no matter how many times you claim it is.

You have stated over and over a works based salvation of infused righteousness. What is strange to me is that sometimes you will come to the philosophical edge of admitting it, then you step back and occasionally step right over it.

I'm not sure if your just not seeing it or what, but I have absolutely no solid idea of what your understanding of salvation is, and I don't think you do either.

I'd rather fish for another response if that's cool with you.
 
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Danus

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Their is one work I know is necessary to be saved, and that's to trust in Jesus, accept him as your savor, and repent, or turn away form your sins.

I also believe people need to partake in a water baptism as soon as possable after receive Christ, but I also believe it's not required for basic salvation, and that there are people who the lord would gladly exempt because of disabilities and those living in extreme locations like in Alaska and such. It is important, though.

As for working to get into heaven, you can't earn your way into heaven. But their are five crown paul listed in one of the scriptures says could earn, and by doing certain things, like saving souls and looking for the lord's return with great happiness, you can earn different crowns.

So in response to the OP's question, The answer is yes, but no. Yes, because it takes work to pray the sinners prayer, but no, because there's nothing you can do to earn your way into heaven, only by the grace of Jesus.

Do you think "good works" is a by product of faith rather than something directly required for salvation?
 

glorydaz

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You have stated over and over a works based salvation of infused righteousness. What is strange to me is that sometimes you will come to the philosophical edge of admitting it, then you step back and occasionally step right over it.

I'm not sure if your just not seeing it or what, but I have absolutely know solid idea of what your understanding of salvation is, and I don't think you do either.

I'd rather fish for another response if that's cool with you.

Ah, I see. You've graduated to proclaiming I don't even know what I believe. Gee, I'm really worried now. I sure hope I don't start doubting my own salvation. Hmmmmm.......

Let's go fishing, then, shall we? I contend it's your inability to accept a view that's contrary to yours. Now we've got some good finger-pointing going on, don't we? That's gotta be a step in the right direction. Should I start saying you believe men are no more than robots? Boy, that sounds like fun. ;)

So, let's go back to the subject you and some others don't want to address. The serpent on a pole. Remember, Christ, Himself, gave us this very illustration. Christ must be lifted up (by the preaching of the gospel), our choice comes in here........we can either place our trust in some other method, or we can look to Christ. Those who look shall live, and those who refuse to look will die. That's about as simple as it gets.

What does the looking mean, anyway? Why is it even in the Bible...some story about a bronze serpent on a pole? Just so we can ignore it and move on with our own preconceived notion (or man-made doctrine)?

It means man must respond to God's command to repent and believe....by looking at the serpent on the pole, by drinking from the river of life, by eating the bread of life, by coming. God wants us to voluntarily come to Him. He wants us to love Him and desire to do His will. It isn't really that difficult to comprehend since love, not freely given is not love at all. We repent because we are ashamed of how we've lived our life, and we love Him for giving His life to save our miserable souls.

I have never believed in a works based salvation. Of course, my definition of works is certainly not yours.
Believing isn't something we strive to do....it simply occurs because of the POWER of the gospel message, but we must choose to trust in Him when the offer to live is given. You can't address this verse, you'd prefer to ramble on with your own thoughts without presenting anything from the Word to back up what you say. So, explain it....

Deuteronomy 30:19 said:
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I know it's easier to ignore all the scripture verses that man has to make that choice, and just hang on like a pit bull to your doctrine. I can't help that. But for you to constantly be claiming I believe in a works-based salvation is as judgmental as it gets, and getting quite boring.

Now I've said it in as many ways as I can. I have not changed what I've said...I've believed the same way for over 40years so don't be claiming any such nonsense as this...."that sometimes you will come to the philosophical edge of admitting it, then you step back and occasionally step right over it".

But since you enjoy fishing so much, I don't mind tagging along. I kind of enjoy watching a braggart fisherman come home empty handed.
 
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