Is God a Murderer?

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Any honest student of the Bible has at some point read some of the orders God gave to Israel to kill. The children of Israel were told to kill on various occasions, sometimes they were told to kill their own with the sword, and other times they were even told to kill entire populations including women and children!
As believers, how should these facts make one feel?

I have personally tried to by address this issue by using the potter/clay analogy. For example, scripture teaches us the following:

Isaiah 45:8b-12
I’m Jehovah, who created [all things]. 9 And what excellent things I did make, as with the clay of a potter. Will he who plows, plow the earth in a day? And will the clay then dare ask the potter, What do you do since you do not work, nor do you have any hands! 10 ‘Woe to he who asks of his father, Why did you give me [life]? And he who asks of his mother, Why did you ever [give birth to me]?’11 So says Jehovah the Holy One of Israel, He who makes the things that will be: ‘Ask Me concerning My sons, and concerning the works of My hands… just ask Me! 12 For, I made the earth and [put] man upon it. It is I who established the sky with My hands. It is I who gave instructions to the stars,

Isaiah 29:
16 Aren’t you just clay in the hands of a potter? Can the shaped thing say to its shaper, ‘You did not really shape me?’ Or can the made thing say to its maker, ‘I don’t like the way that you made me?’

Jeremiah 18:
5 It was then that the word of the Lord came to me saying, 6 ‘Jehovah asks: O house of Israel; Can I not remake you in the same way, as the potter just [remade this pot]? {Look!} As clay in the hands of a potter, that’s what you are in My hands, house of Israel. 7 So, when I speak of the end of a nation or kingdom, and plan to lift them away and destroy them, 8 and that nation then turns from the bad, I’ll change My mind about the bad things I’d planned! 9 But, if I speak of rebuilding a nation or kingdom, 10 and they continue as wicked before Me, or if they refuse to listen to My voice, then I’ll change My mind about the good things I’d planned. 11 ‘Now, say this to the men of Judea, and to those who live in Jerusalem… tell them that thus says Jehovah: {Look!} I will shape bad things against you, and devise against you a plot, unless you turn from your evil ways, and change your bad ways to good!’


As the author and giver of life and all things in life, is it not the author's right to put an end to that which he started? Can you not hear the voice of the creator and master say,
"I GAVE YOU LIFE, AND I EXPECT THAT YOU LIVE THE LIFE THAT I GAVE YOU IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE PARAMETERS I HAVE SET FOR YOU, BUT IF YOU CHOOSE TO GO OUTSIDE OF THE PARAMETERS THAT I HAVE SET FOR YOU, THE LIFE I GAVE TO YOU WILL BE TAKEN FROM YOU AND IN THE COURSE OF THE LIFE YOU HAVE CHOOSEN OVER THE LIFE I LAID OUT FOR YOU, YOU WILL EXPERIENCE THE PAINS AND TERMOIL THAT WILL COME ALONG WITH THE LAWLESSNESS (SIN) YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO LIVE IN."

As people, we must remember who the clay is and who the potter is. The clay BELONGS to the potter and he can do with it whatever He choses to do! We must realize where the authority lies and learn to live in acceptance of the fact that since we are NOT the authority, we must live under the authority or else face the wrath of that authority.

 

[Jakeness]

Yes.

 

[Drew]

I appreciate the case you are trying to make, but I think there are real problems with it. You seem to be arguing that if agent "A" creates something "B", then A has the right to do whatever s/he wants with B. That has a certain common-sense appeal, but I think it really does not work.

Imagine your child has the skill to create feeling life-forms. And imagine that he then slaughthers them mercilessly. I suspect most parents would vigourously discipline such a child, believing that the "power to create" does not give the child the "right" to then inflict pain and suffering on that which s/he has created.

Here is my take on all the Old Testament genocides ordered by God: God had no choice but to order these genocides in order to implement His grand plan of redemption.

If this sounds a little strange, think of the cancer doctor who uses chemotherapy. Does the doctor use chemotherapy because s/he enjoys inflicting suffering? Of course not - this unpleasant treatment is used because it is the best that the doctor can do in the interest of the ultimate welfare of the child. I suggest something similar is going on in the Old Testament with all these acts of "murder".

I can explain more, if there is any interest.

 

[Deavonreye]

What if the metaphorical "cancer" was a misdiagnosis? The steps to "cure the patient" is futile, and often some normal cells are killed during the treatment. Or perhaps a less invasive form of treatment would have done a better job. What I'm trying to say is that there are always other options, Drew.

If you follow the idea of the bible, . . . it WAS more about "anger" and "wrath" on behalf of god, . . . not "an unfortunate necesity that had to be done".

As for "god being a murderer", it seems clear that nothing the biblical god does is "a sin", strictly because "anything god does is his will, . . . his will is what matters, . . . and going against his will is what sin is". He has all the power, thus we can do nothing against him, or about what he does. We CAN stand up and state our point about such things, but it would ultimately be irrelevant. Like Job, all we can do is throw up the white flag and state what he did. "He [god] does what he will do, . . . I am no one to be able to stand against him. Nothing I say will make a difference to him." Job 40:4-5 Whatever god does is to his own delight, regardless of whether or not we see it as good or bad. Deuteronomy 28:63.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Well - "Fear" would be a start -

God kills, and makes alive. He Loves, and He has WRATH, He Died for us, and he JUDGES us.

Your "clay" analogy is essentially the "It doesn't MATTER whether the Cop is RIGHT or not - he's got the GUN, and you don't" argument. It's a true analogy.

God has the PERFECT right (as the holder of ALL authority)to wipe out anybody HE chooses any time he chooses for "just Cause".

Our infantile attempts at "Ethics" and "Moral definitions" don't mean spit. And recognizing that is the beginning of freedom from man's corporate foolishness.

In addition - everybody on earth WILL die physically at some point in time - some early some late, but "life" is a terminal disease that we all have.

SO essentially the entire argument is moot.

The Christian, of course, HAS BEEN "killed" already - dying with Christ on the Cross - and being raised in newness of life in HIM. That's how we escape the curse related to breaking the LAW.

 

[Hawkins]

God had no choice but to order these genocides in order to implement His grand plan of redemption.

Planet earth is a place for humans to fully execise their freewill. And warring followed by genocides once upon a time is a human establishment as a reult of human brutalty. God allows Israel to be just as brutal as its surrounding enemies to survive the history. God chose the Jews not because they were of any good in terms of brutalty. God chose them because they are good message keepers.

And only after settling down in Canaan, God started to educate them with the Mosaic Law. On the other hand, atheists require the Jews in history to be saints such that their surounding enemies could have wipe them out before they could pass the message of salvation to humans nowaday. That's a one-sided unrealistic wish just to conform themselves a little from their own torturing rebellious nature. They can't overcome their own rebellious nature and thus have to accuss God of something in order to feel better.

On the other hand, God has successfully brought forward His message of salvation via the Jews (who survived the history) to today's humans. ...Such that the atheists will have to torture themselves with their own rebellious nature (that's why they are in the religious forums) without relief.

 

[Deavonreye]

Re: Well - "Fear" would be a start -

God kills, and makes alive. He Loves, and He has WRATH, He Died for us, and he JUDGES us.

Your "clay" analogy is essentially the "It doesn't MATTER whether the Cop is RIGHT or not - he's got the GUN, and you don't" argument. It's a true analogy.

God has the PERFECT right (as the holder of ALL authority)to wipe out anybody HE chooses any time he chooses for "just Cause".

Our infantile attempts at "Ethics" and "Moral definitions" don't mean spit. And recognizing that is the beginning of freedom from man's corporate foolishness.

I disagree. Our ethics/morality mean far more than "spit", and I'm sorry that you have such a low opinion of who you are [human]. We aren't stupid, nor would we have been "created" as such.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What if the metaphorical "cancer" was a misdiagnosis? The steps to "cure the patient" is futile, and often some normal cells are killed during the treatment. Or perhaps a less invasive form of treatment would have done a better job. What I'm trying to say is that there are always other options, Drew.

If you follow the idea of the bible, . . . it WAS more about "anger" and "wrath" on behalf of god, . . . not "an unfortunate necesity that had to be done".

As for "god being a murderer", it seems clear that nothing the biblical god does is "a sin", strictly because "anything god does is his will, . . . his will is what matters, . . . and going against his will is what sin is". He has all the power, thus we can do nothing against him, or about what he does. We CAN stand up and state our point about such things, but it would ultimately be irrelevant. Like Job, all we can do is throw up the white flag and state what he did. "He [god] does what he will do, . . . I am no one to be able to stand against him. Nothing I say will make a difference to him." Job 40:4-5 Whatever god does is to his own delight, regardless of whether or not we see it as good or bad. Deuteronomy 28:63.

Glad you mentioned sin. We know God hates and will punish sin, BUT He is merciful and forgiving to those who would turn from their sinful ways and obey Him. 2 Peter 3:9 affirms.

5 The thing that they don’t want to understand is: The ancient earth and skies were out of the water and (in obedience to God’s instructions) stood together between the waters. 6 And it was through these things that the world which was then, was deluged and destroyed by water. 7 And by the same [instructions]; What’s [now] in store for the earth and skies is fire, which [will come] during the Judgment Day, when godless men will be destroyed. 8 However, don’t overlook the fact, loved ones, that one day to Jehovah is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as just one day. 9 So, Jehovah isn’t slow when it comes to His promises (as some people think). Rather, He’s being patient with you, because He doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed; and He’s allowing enough time for everyone to repent!

Even in the Old Testament, God worked in the same manner. Recall how God sent Jonah to Ninevah to give them a warning and a chance to repent before He would destroy that city. God even sent messengers to Sodom and Gomorrah before He ultimately destroyed them as well. Look at the following passage from Dueteronomy 19.

10 ‘Now, whenever you approach a city, before you go to battle against them, you must call out to them peacefully. 11 And if they answer you peacefully and open [their gates] to you, all the people who are found there must become your subjects and serve you. 12 But if they don’t listen to you and they choose to fight a war against you, then you must [lay siege on the city] 13 until Jehovah your God gives it into your hands. Then you must kill all the men there with swords. 14 You may spare the women, their possessions, all the cattle, and anything else that is in the city… you may loot it and take whatever you wish, and you may also eat whatever your enemies have, because Jehovah your God has given it to you. 15 ‘Now, that’s what you must do to the distant cities, not to the cities of these nations that Jehovah your God is giving you and where you will inherit their land. 16 You must not leave anything alive there! 17 You must curse the Hittites, Amorites, CanaAnites, Pherezites, Evites, Jebusites, and Gergesites, just as Jehovah your God commanded you, 18 so they don’t teach you to do all the disgusting things that they are doing before their gods and cause you to sin before Jehovah your God.


We are commissioned to be aware of God's abhorance to sin. He does not tolerate it amongst His people and has a track record of and has made a promise to wipe it out! So to those who continue to live in violation of His ways, an expectation of calamity is very realistic.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

We know that the bible says that God is love and it also points out that He will avenge. I'm not sure how these cannot be merged, but let's consider what the vengence is that He will take.

Psalms 94
1 Jehovah is a God who seeks vengeance, and this God who seeks vengeance has publicly spoken. 2 Arise, O He who is judging the earth! Pay what is due to the proud! O Jehovah; How much longer will sinners remain… how long will sinners be allowed to keep boasting? 4 For when they speak they do so unjustly, and all who break Laws keep on bragging. 5 They’ve mistreated Your people O Jehovah; to Your inheritance they have done evil. 6 The widows and orphans they’ve killed, and they’ve murdered foreign sojourners. 7 They’ve said ‘Jehovah can’t see; so the God of Jacob will never know.’ 8 Look, you fools among [men]… you who’ve been foolish should stop and think! 9 Can’t the ear of the Planter also hear… can’t He who shaped the eye also think? 10 Won’t He who corrects all the nations, and who teaches knowledge to man, also provide him the discipline he needs? 11 Jehovah knows the ways that men think, and that the things we think of are foolish. 12 But blest is the man who Jehovah corrects, and is taught the ways of God’s Law. 3 O calm Him down from His days, when He dug a pit for the sinners. 14 For, Jehovah won’t push His people aside, and His inheritance He’ll never abandon. 5 How long until justice returns with its judgments… until those straight of heart receive [what they’re due]? 16 Who will oppose the wicked for me… who will stand with me opposing the lawless? 17 If it weren’t for the help that Jehovah has given, my life would soon travel through the place of the dead. 18 Did I ask for my feet to tremble? O Jehovah, show mercy and help me! 19 Despite all the grief in my heart, You’ve brought comfort and shown love for my soul. 20 Will the throne of the lawless stay with You… those who turn order into trouble? 21 Will they keep hunting for the lives of the righteous, and the blood of the innocents keep on condemning? 2 But Jehovah has become a refuge to me… my God is my helper and hope. 23 He’ll give the lawless the things they deserve, and remove them from His view for their badness.


Romans 12:
14 say nice things to those who persecute [you]… don’t curse them praise them! 15 Rejoice with people who are rejoicing, and cry with people who are crying; 16 be aware of each other’s needs; don’t spend too much time thinking about high ideas, but deal with each other humbly; don’t think too much of yourselves; 17 don’t be rude to people who treat you poorly, but plan to do good things in the eyes of everyone. 18 And if possible (whenever you can), be peaceable with everyone… 19 don’t get even loved ones, but put anger in its place, because it’s written, ‘Allow Me to get even… I’ll pay them back, says Jehovah.’ 20 But, If your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he’s thirsty, give him something to drink; for when you do this, you’ll pile burning coals on his head. 21 Don’t allow evil to conquer you, but keep conquering evil with good.

Notice that the Bible teaches that the revenge the Lord takes will be on those who mistreated their fellow man. Individuals were told not to seek revenge because eventually, God would work that out for them.

As far as the potter/clay and parent/child comparison, it's kind of a different comparison. Parents and children are ultimately on the same level as far as ability, knowledge, and authority whereas the clay will never turn into the potter. The potter has total dominion over the clay whereas a parent is not to exercise total lifelong dominion over a child, but rather to raise up a child to adulthood in a proper manner. In other words, the 'clay' is not the child of the potter no more than a drawing is the child of an artist.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

The Real Issue

We all exist because GOD decided to create the world we live in. Our lives and existence did not come about by ANY say so of our own and eventually we will all die.
Having established the above as fact, let's bring into focus how the lifegiver can be viewed as a murderer keeping in mind that since MAN brought sin into the world (which results in death), all will eventually die. Murder is defined as the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought." In order for GOD to be a murderer, HE would have to be a human being who unlawfully takes the life of another based on HIS predetermined malicous intent. According to the definition of murder, it is notpossible for GOD to be a murderer of humans.
We all know that that is not even the issue. The issue is whether or not the actions of GOD or the actions of those obeying the direct orders of GOD are a reflection of an evil charactor existing within GOD. So the question is not, "Is GOD a murderer?," but rather; "Is GOD evil?". In order to answer this question we need to focus on exactly what 'evil' is.

 

[Deavonreye]

"...but rather; "Is GOD evil?"."

Perhaps from our perspective, but if I were to question god on it, he would make it known that . . . firstly, my opinion doesn't matter, . . . secondly, he can do what he wants, because he is god and I'm not, . . . .thirdly, whatever he does is his will, and by definition, "sin" or "being evil" is ONLY doing that which is against god's will. It may appear as evil to us, but it wouldn't matter to god.

 

[jasoncran]

"...but rather; "Is GOD evil?"."

Perhaps from our perspective, but if I were to question god on it, he would make it known that . . . firstly, my opinion doesn't matter, . . . secondly, he can do what he wants, because he is god and I'm not, . . . .thirdly, whatever he does is his will, and by definition, "sin" or "being evil" is ONLY doing that which is against god's will. It may appear as evil to us, but it wouldn't matter to god.

did we argue this with over 100 posts in another thread? and none of the posters budged.

 

[elijah23]

Is the Lord a murderer?

No, the Lord never kills without just cause.

 

[Drew]

What if the metaphorical "cancer" was a misdiagnosis? The steps to "cure the patient" is futile, and often some normal cells are killed during the treatment. Or perhaps a less invasive form of treatment would have done a better job. What I'm trying to say is that there are always other options, Drew.

Well of course. I never suggested that the view I was presenting needed to be accepted as self-evident truth.

If you follow the idea of the bible, . . . it WAS more about "anger" and "wrath" on behalf of god, . . . not "an unfortunate necesity that had to be done".

That's debatable. For reasons I will not get into in the present post, I suggest that it is manifestly clear that the Bible is full of examples where the superficial reading of a text is not really the full, or correct, meaning.

As for "god being a murderer", it seems clear that nothing the biblical god does is "a sin", strictly because "anything god does is his will, . . . his will is what matters, . . . and going against his will is what sin is". He has all the power, thus we can do nothing against him, or about what he does. We CAN stand up and state our point about such things, but it would ultimately be irrelevant. Like Job, all we can do is throw up the white flag and state what he did. "He [god] does what he will do, . . . I am no one to be able to stand against him. Nothing I say will make a difference to him." Job 40:4-5 Whatever god does is to his own delight, regardless of whether or not we see it as good or bad. Deuteronomy 28:63.

I do not think this is an accurate summary of how the Bible represents God.

 

[Deavonreye]

Drew, I really believe it is. You said, "I suggest that it is manifestly clear that the Bible is full of examples where the superficial reading of a text is not really the full, or correct, meaning." That is true. But that is why there are so many denominations because people tend to see more in a text that what is actually there, causing many of the threads we see on here.

However, as I read through the Old Testament, I began to recognize what I've stated in my previous post on this thread. I believe it is sound, when talking about how god operates.

 

[Drew]

Drew, I really believe it is. You said, "I suggest that it is manifestly clear that the Bible is full of examples where the superficial reading of a text is not really the full, or correct, meaning." That is true. But that is why there are so many denominations because people tend to see more in a text that what is actually there, causing many of the threads we see on here.

There may indeed be many denominations. But how is that problematic in respect to what I asserted

However, as I read through the Old Testament, I began to recognize what I've stated in my previous post on this thread. I believe it is sound, when talking about how god operates.

I disagree, and if time permits, I will post a number of texts that will demonstrate that your characterization was incomplete.

 

[Deavonreye]

There may indeed be many denominations. But how is that problematic in respect to what I asserted


I disagree, and if time permits, I will post a number of texts that will demonstrate that your characterization was incomplete.

I'm sure you can, . . . but there are probably just as many instances that are indicative of "wrath" and "anger" from god.

However, this topic is about "god as a murder", and if that is possible. I still state that he has made his own way out of culpability by making the rules himself, and since what he says . . .goes. . . nothing he does is "unlawful" because the law IS his will . . .and it matters not who dies in the process.

 

[theLords]

The Author of life and death is not a murderer

 

[Bob Carabbio]

"I disagree"

Of course. You were expected to.

The fear of God is the BEGINNING of wisdom.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

As Christians, this issue is not something we can just sweep und and the rug and ignore. There are those out there like Richard Dawkins who have read the OT and become very familiar with it and in turn have concluded the following:

The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.

We MUST be able to dismantle such attacks on our Creator with logic and scripture.