Is Hell an Invention of the church ?

[Elvispelvis]

Sheol= grave in hebrew.
Take all the times you see the word hell 31 times in the old testament
and change it to the proper Hebrew word Sheol rendered by the translators hell 31 times for no reason.



The Bible was not written in English yet the people answering me use the
English words to prove there points.

This way is flawed from the beginning with no chance for success if you use the English bible if you dont take the time to look up the meaning of the word in Hebrew.

Hell = grave you are right if you replace hell with the proper Hebrew word then
it becomes clear the translators got it wrong again. Why did they take the same Hebrew word Sheol and change it into different words like hell some times , grave sometimes, pit sometimes ?

31 times Sheol is rendered Grave 3 times Pit 31 times hell the same Hebrew word was changed according to the whim of the translators.

If you properly translate Sheol to grave then the word hell does not appear in the old testament.

Hell is an English word "to cover over" the word helmet to cover your head comes from this.
Look at 1611 the year they translated the Bible to English to put your potatoes in the ground" to cover them over" for the winter was called helling your potatoes.

When you built your house in 1611 then you helled the roof with your friends you covered your house.

God expects us to search the matter out.

Look at what Solomon says about death and you will see when you dead your dead. Solomon is a lot smarter than you so listen closely to his God inspired
words to those who have ears to hear:


Chapter 9

A Common Destiny for All

1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, [fn1] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.



As it is with the good man so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths,

so with those who are afraid to take them.

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [fn2] —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.



7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.
8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.
9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

If you will not hear Solomon you will not hear me.
Sin cerley Craig

 

[Theofilus]

God expects us to search the matter out.

I did, and I found out that the word "Hell" does not apear exclusively in the Old Testament in the KJV. It appears 23 times in the New Testament as well. It is translated 10 times from the word "Hades", 12 times from the word "Gehenna and once the phrase "cast down to hell" is translated from the word "tartaroo", which is derived from "Tartaros".

Hades was the Greek name for the place of the dead, similar to Sheol in Hebrew. Gehenna was (and is) a valey near Jerusalem. It was figuratively used by rabbis to refer to a place where the departed suffer. Tartaros was the deepest abyss of Hades and was believed to be a place of eternal torment. Although most people's concept of Hell today is different in many ways than that of first century Christians, the church's doctrines about it are based primarily on those last two concepts - Gehenna and Tartaros.

 

[Mike]

Elvis, I've always wondered... is there a reason you always sign off "sin cerely"? I thought it might have been a typo the first time, but obviously not.

Mark 14:21 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

How would it be better that someone never had been born if there wasn't a place the condemned went that had eternal consequences?

Mat 13:50 "These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

Seems pretty clear to me...

 

[Oats]

Elvis, I've always wondered... is there a reason you always sign off "sin cerely"? I thought it might have been a typo the first time, but obviously not.

Mark 14:21 "The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born."

How would it be better that someone never had been born if there wasn't a place the condemned went that had eternal consequences?

Mat 13:50 "These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

Seems pretty clear to me...

Hell is indeed real...i agree about the "sin cerely" thing

 

[Pard]

You are being very selective in the Greek words you use.

Also, some form of Hell is required for the Bible to be true. And since we know it is true... some form of Hell must exist.

 

[DrFrank]

Re: Hell is creation of God

In what should be a frightening contrast to the teaching in most churches is the teaching of Jesus since hell was one of His most frequent topics that He chose for His sermons.I personally like these two verses from Revelation 20,with my explanations in capitol letters,because they create such a graphic description:

14 Afterward (THOSE IN A STATE OF) death and (THOSE IN) hell were thrown into the lake of fire. (THE PUNISHMENT AREA OF HELL) This is (WHAT THE BIBLE CALLS) the second death.15.Anyone whose name was not written in the book of life (A RECORD OF THOSE SELECTED FOR SALVATION) was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Sinthesis]

God expects us to search the matter out.

Look at what Solomon says about death and you will see when you dead your dead. Solomon is a lot smarter than you so listen closely to his God inspired
words to those who have ears to hear:
...
If you will not hear Solomon you will not hear me.
Sin cerley Craig

Solomon was correct at the time. But Jesus has changed the game. He could do that; He writes the rules.

 

[XTruth]

Sheol= grave in hebrew.
Take all the times you see the word hell 31 times in the old testament
and change it to the proper Hebrew word Sheol rendered by the translators hell 31 times for no reason.



The Bible was not written in English yet the people answering me use the
English words to prove there points.

This way is flawed from the beginning with no chance for success if you use the English bible if you dont take the time to look up the meaning of the word in Hebrew.

Hell = grave you are right if you replace hell with the proper Hebrew word then
it becomes clear the translators got it wrong again. Why did they take the same Hebrew word Sheol and change it into different words like hell some times , grave sometimes, pit sometimes ?

31 times Sheol is rendered Grave 3 times Pit 31 times hell the same Hebrew word was changed according to the whim of the translators.

If you properly translate Sheol to grave then the word hell does not appear in the old testament.

Hell is an English word "to cover over" the word helmet to cover your head comes from this.
Look at 1611 the year they translated the Bible to English to put your potatoes in the ground" to cover them over" for the winter was called helling your potatoes.

When you built your house in 1611 then you helled the roof with your friends you covered your house.

God expects us to search the matter out.

Look at what Solomon says about death and you will see when you dead your dead. Solomon is a lot smarter than you so listen closely to his God inspired
words to those who have ears to hear:


Chapter 9

A Common Destiny for All

1 So I reflected on all this and concluded that the righteous and the wise and what they do are in God's hands, but no man knows whether love or hate awaits him. 2 All share a common destiny—the righteous and the wicked, the good and the bad, [fn1] the clean and the unclean, those who offer sacrifices and those who do not.



As it is with the good man so with the sinner; as it is with those who take oaths,

so with those who are afraid to take them.

3 This is the evil in everything that happens under the sun: The same destiny overtakes all. The hearts of men, moreover, are full of evil and there is madness in their hearts while they live, and afterward they join the dead. 4 Anyone who is among the living has hope [fn2] —even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!

5 For the living know that they will die but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

6 Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.



7 Go, eat your food with gladness, and drink your wine with a joyful heart, for it is now that God favors what you do.
8 Always be clothed in white, and always anoint your head with oil.
9 Enjoy life with your wife, whom you love, all the days of this meaningless life that God has given you under the sun— all your meaningless days. For this is your lot in life and in your toilsome labor under the sun.
10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

If you will not hear Solomon you will not hear me.
Sin cerley Craig

Men can put into the grave after killing the body, but God alone can cast into hell (Lk.12:5; Rev. 20:11-15; Psalm 9:17).

Greek: gehenna (NT:1067), the place of future and eternal torment. Found 12 times and always rendered "hell." It is the same as "the lake of fire" found 5 times (Rev. 19:20; Rev. 20:10-15; Rev. 21:8).

Gehenna (NT:1067) is Not the Grave Because:

1. Only certain people are in danger of gehenna (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 23:15,33).

2. Victory over sin is the only thing that will enable one to escape gehenna (Matthew 5:29-30; Matthew 18:9; Rev. 21:8).

3. Both body and soul go to gehenna (Matthew 10:28; Luke 12:5).

4. Gehenna is a place of damnation (Matthew 23:33; Matthew 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev. 19:20; Rev. 20:11-15; Rev. 21:8; Isaiah 66:22-24).

5. Bodies are not put into gehenna until the judgment (Rev. 20:11-15).

6. God only has power to put into gehenna (Luke 12:5; Matthew 10:28).

7. Gehenna can set on fire the course of nature (James 3:6).

8. Only the wicked go to gehenna (Rev. 20:11-15; Rev. 21:8; Psalm 9:17).

9. Degrees of punishment in gehenna (Rev. 20:13; Matthew 23:14-15).

10. People can repent and escape gehenna (Matthew 3:2-8; Matthew 23:33).

11. Fire in gehenna-never quenched and worm does not die (Mark 9:43-49; Matthew 25:41,46; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev. 20:10-15).

12. The fire, damnation, punishment, judgment, and contempt of gehenna are "eternal" (Matthew 25:41,46; Mark 3:29; Mark 9:43-49; Hebrews 6:2; Jude 1:7; Rev. 14:9-11; Daniel 12:2).

13. There will be "weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth" in gehenna (Matthew 8:12; Matthew 13:42,50; Matthew 24:51).

14. People will be put "alive" into gehenna (Rev. 19:20; Rev. 20:11-15).

15. All the wicked in tartarus (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6-7), the abyss (Luke 8:31; Rev. 9; Rev. 20:3), and Sheol/Hades will be put into gehenna (Rev. 20:10-15).

16. Gehenna is a place of eternal torment with "fire and brimstone" (Rev. 14:9-11; Rev. 20:10-15).

Not one of these things could be spoken of the grave.




As for Eccl.9... you should be taught that Solomon wrote most of this from the view of one in a backslidden condition.

You Should Also Learn The Three Kinds of Death in Scripture:

1. Physical death -- the separation of the inner man from the body (Jas. 2:26)

2. Spiritual death -- separation from God because of sin (Eph. 2:1,5; Isa. 59:2; Mt. 8:22; Col. 2:13; 1Tim. 5:6)

3. Eternal death -- eternal separation from God because man chooses to remain separated from God in sin (Mt. 10:28; 25:41,46; Rev. 2:11; 14:9-11; 20:11-15; 21:8; 22:15 Isa. 66:22-24). This is called the second death or second separation from God (Rev. 2:11; 20:14; 21:8). Death in all Scripture means separation from the purpose for which one was created, never annihilation or extinction of being. Physical death is separation of the inner man from the body. Only the body dies at this time and goes back to dust (Gen. 3:19; Jas. 2:26). The spirit and soul are immortal and are either dead in sins or in possession of eternal life in Christ at the time of physical death. In either case, they continue in conciousness whether in heaven or hell (see notes on 1Pet. 3:4; Lk. 12:5; Lk. 16:23)

 

[Elvispelvis]

Thanks for the time spent on your comments from a sinner.

I sin everyday and I am filthy before my Lord and Master, but through the mediation of my Lord Jesus Christ I may boldly approach His throne of grace. I am very sincere in my Bible studies as I pass them on to you, I am a sinner=sin cerley Craig.

Thanks for noticing as I also say There are many future events in the old testament, prophecy
Please study the old testament .
My teacher always taught me you can not understand the new testament till you understand the old testament. Remember the Gospel was Preached unto Abraham so the gospel must be in Genesis.
Psa 78:5 For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:
Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.
If you can not explain your position from the law and the prophets there is no light in you.

To try to keep this thread moving along as written please notice I kept my scripture to the old testament.
I am sure many can show me from the new testament lots of hell but I would ask that we keep this post
strictly to the old testament verses and we shall endevour to go through them one by one in order.
After all it is my post............. ha ha lol.

Seriously we are told to" do things decently and in order " " come let us reason together" >
So Sheol is only for the old testament not the new testament I thought that was obvious but someone said that is wrong in the words of new testament. Of course thats Greek.
My comments for the time being keep me in the old testament to start from the beginning is logical.
Sheol= grave
try to look at the word everlasting in Hebrew and Greek that will help.

If I am dead and in the grave forever is that not everlasting punishment that lasts for ever!

If I am punished by God from participating in eternal life I truly am punished forever, for ever.

It is everlasting punishment.

If however I am in hell roasting for ever then I have eternal life dont I.
Not logical. sorry.

Eternity is for the saints not the sinners. You have Hitler with eternal life but
in hell.
Your twisting the words around and you are saying that being punished
for ever is the same as everlasting punishment.

Again the old testament must agree with the new testament
The wisest man who ever lived Solomon:
Ecc 3

18 I also thought, “As for men, God tests them so that they may see that they are like the animals.
19 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath [fn2] ; man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless.
20 All go to the same place; all come from dust, and to dust all return.

The old testament saying is famous; ALL COME FROM THE DUST, AND TO THE DUST ALL RETURN.

For those who have no answer, they say Solomon was this or that, yet God chose him to write in the bible, not because he was good or bad, or else no one would write in the bible, many were bad at times, so what. Thats how people try to get out of answering when they can not answer.

Try to disprove what he teaches, if you can, leave the messenger alone, please.

Sin cerley Craig

 

[JamesG]

'
The word “gehenna†is used by Jesus:

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell†(Matthew 10:28)

Note that both soul and body are destroyed in gehenna.

But it may be the following quotation of Jesus that gave rise to the idea of eternal torment:

“And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.†(Mark 9:43-46)

But it only says that the fire is not quenched. It does not say that they continue to live, unless one interprets “the worm dieth not†as continuing to live. And it would be an interpretation because the phrase is only used here by Mark.

It is a phrase that apparently comes from this Old Testament quote:

“For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.†(Isaiah 66:22-24)

In this portion, it does not say that they are alive. On the contrary. It says that they are carcasses or corpses. But their worm does not die, nor their fire quenched. The corpses and the fire are still visible. And the purpose is for the abhorring of all flesh or those who are still alive. It is apparently a continual memory so that what happened before will not happen again.

Fire normally destroys that which is biologically alive. It purifies minerals. Those who are in Christ are referred to as living stones, and would be purified by fire. Those who are not in Christ would be destroyed by fire.

Further, Gehenna is used in contrast to eternal life in the quotation in Mark. What is in contrast to eternal life is eternal death, not eternal torment.

“And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.†(Revelations 20:14-15)

This happens prior to the new heavens and new earth and the coming down from heaven of the New Jerusalem. Death and hell are not in eternal torment nor are the people cast into that lake. And it is called the second death, not the second some other kind of life where one is in torment.

But apparently, the devil will suffer some sort of eternal torment because of the trouble that he caused in the first creation:

“And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.†(Revelations 20:10)

And perhaps there are two others who will suffer like fate with the devil:

“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.†(Revelations 19:20)

Though not necessarily. It only states that they were cast alive into the fire. Doesn’t say that they lived or died after that casting.

The purpose of Bible interpretation is to give credence to speculations. And the burning in the fires of hell for all eternity is a speculation that is not only an invention of “the Churchâ€, but is an invention that has been perpetuated even in Protestantism that claims to follow the Bible alone.

JamesG

 

[Hawkins]

Sheol has a meaning of "grave", but the words are not totally interchangeable. Sheol also means a place storing human souls/spirits.

Amongst the ancient Jews, only Sadducees don't acknowledge the immortality of souls. While Sadducees only represent the Jew minority as nobles. Sadducees are famous in dealing with political issues instead of spiritual issues, though they have a role in the Jews' ritual practices. High priests in temples are assigned by the Sadducees.

All other Jews sects including the Pharisees believe the immortality of souls. Actually, all those (as Jews majority) followed the Oral Torah believed the concept of souls/spirits/afterlife and sheol and even the Abyss of fire. That's why the concept of burning hell exists in early Jews documents such as the book of Enoch. And that's why those same documents led to the later purgatory concept of the Roman Catholics.

Hades is Greek concept very similar to sheol, Hades is an underworld of the undead. That's why the 72 independent Greek translators used Hades (instead of simply grave) to translate the Jews' sheol concept as the Greek "Hades" in translating the first Greek OT Bible from Hebrew.

The same concepts were very common amongst the Jews in Jesus' time, that's why Jesus had no difficulties in using "gehenna" to represent the burning hell. the Jews understood right away about what He meant to say. Similarly, Jesus even used the concepts into a parable. Parables are the use of simple and well understood terms to better illustrate a point.

"Hell" is a term when the concepts both Hades and gehenna (burning hell) are translated into other languages such as English.

 

[Elvispelvis]

The popular conception of hell is of a place of punishment for wicked 'immortal souls' straight after death, or the place of torment for those who are rejected at the judgment. It is our conviction that the Bible teaches that hell is the grave, where all men go at death.

As a word, the original Hebrew word 'sheol', translated 'hell', means 'a covered place'. 'Hell' is the Anglicized version of 'sheol'; thus when we read of 'hell' we are not reading a word which has been fully translated. A 'helmet' is literally a 'hell-met', meaning a covering for the head. Biblically, this 'covered place', or 'hell', is the grave. There are many examples where the original word 'sheol' is translated 'grave'. Indeed, some modern Bible versions scarcely use the word 'hell', translating it more properly as 'grave'. A few examples of where this word 'sheol' is translated 'grave' should torpedo the popular conception of hell as a place of fire and torment for the wicked:-

- "Let the wicked...be silent in the grave" (sheol [Ps. 31:17]) - they will not be screaming in agony.

- "God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave" (sheol [Ps.49:15]) - i.e. David's soul or body would be resurrected from the grave, or 'hell'.

The belief that hell is a place of punishment for the wicked from which they cannot escape just cannot be squared with this; a righteous man can go to hell (the grave) and come out again. Hos. 13:14 confirms this: "I will ransom them (God's people) from the power of the grave (sheol); I will redeem them from death".
This is quoted in 1 Cor. 15:55 and applied to the resurrection at Christ's return. Likewise in the vision of the second resurrection (see Study 5.5), "death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them" (Rev. 20:13). Note the parallel between death, i.e. the grave, and hell (see also Ps. 6:5).

Hannah's words in 1 Sam. 2:6 are very clear: "The Lord killeth, and maketh alive (through resurrection): he bringeth down to the grave (sheol), and bringeth up".

Seeing that 'hell' is the grave, it is to be expected that the righteous will be saved from it through their resurrection to eternal life. Thus it is quite possible to enter 'hell', or the grave, and later to leave it through resurrection.
The supreme example is that of Jesus, whose "soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption" (Acts 2:31) because he was resurrected. Note the parallel between Christ's 'soul' and his 'flesh' or body. That his body "was not left in hell" implies that it was there for a period, i.e. the three days in which his body was in the grave.

That Christ went to 'hell' should be proof enough that it is not just a place where the wicked go.

Please study the old testament
Sin celery Craig

 

[Hawkins]

That Christ went to 'hell' should be proof enough that it is not just a place where the wicked go.

Actually, it proofs the opposite, you may try to spin the verse or explain them away though.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

1 Peter 4:6(NIV)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Moreover, the word 'hell' can bare 2 distinguishable meanings, 1) the burning hell, 2) simply sheol or Hades.

Psalm 139:8
(KJV)
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

(NASB)
If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

 

[Mike]

I sin everyday and I am filthy before my Lord and Master, but through the mediation of my Lord Jesus Christ I may boldly approach His throne of grace. I am very sincere in my Bible studies as I pass them on to you, I am a sinner=sin cerley Craig.

Thanks for noticing as I also say There are many future events in the old testament, prophecy
Please study the old testament .

Thanks for clearing up the "sin cerely". I honestly didn't know where you were going with that.

It's been my understanding that the notion of annihilation is a relatively recent, liberal concept that, unfortunately, is gaining momentum in conservative circles. What is a greater punishment? Living eternity in complete separation from God, or nonexistence at all? I can see how this concept became favorable to those who couldn't come to terms with eternal separation.

Speaking of the Old Testament, what about Daniel 12:2? “Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contemptâ€

Someone who's annihilated wouldn't have contempt, let alone everlasting contempt. Of course all the references to eternal punishment noted above from the New Testament was well documented evidence to dispute annihilation.

 

[Elvispelvis]

hawkins said;
1 Peter 4:6(NIV)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Moreover, the word 'hell' can bare 2 distinguishable meanings, 1) the burning hell, 2) simply sheol or Hades.

Psalm 139:8
(KJV)
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

(NASB)
If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol,

Craig :
Ps 139:8 This is one of the points I have been trying to make why did they use hell in this instance
Instead of Sheol or grave why hell? The Hebrew word is always the same Sheol yet sometimes they said hell sometimes grave sometimes pit for the same word why?
This verse you used is it literal or symbolic or a metaphor?

Tell me what human could possibly ascend to heaven, no-one!
Tell me who could make there bed in hell, no-one!

Are you trying to tell me God lives in hell it says He is there if this is literal!

If the translators did their job properly then Sheol in English should be rendered grave!

Put the word grave in all old testament places that say Sheol and it fits perfectly.

Are you saying Jesus did not go to hell?
The verse clearly says Jesus went to hell?

Because it does not fit with your theories you say it did not happen?

I would love to hear how you get around the fact that Jesus went to hell?
Hawkins said;
1 Peter 4:6(NIV)
For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Craig:
Have you never heard of the verse when the young man approaches Jesus and says i will follow you but first let me bury my father. Jesus answers let the dead bury the dead. Do you understand there are different words for dead and meanings, Jesus says you can be alive yet dead! One is physical one is spiritual.
I have more verses like this to follow but I cant wait to hear how you explain the Bible is wrong Jesus did not go to hell.

If you say he did go to hell describe using scripture how one who never sinned was sent to hell?

Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Same word Sheol used hear why did they not say hell?
Sin creley Craig
Please study the old testament

 

[Hawkins]

Ps 139:8 This is one of the points I have been trying to make why did they use hell in this instance
Instead of Sheol or grave why hell? The Hebrew word is always the same Sheol yet sometimes they said hell sometimes grave sometimes pit for the same word why?
This verse you used is it literal or symbolic or a metaphor?

It is simple, humans uses words bearing multiple meanings to describe things in different situations. It's not uncommon. I already gave an example before, 'Frankie goes to Hollywood" could mean that Frankie would like to be a artist star. You are not more professional then those translators such as the 72 Greek translators who translated the first version OT Bible from Hebrew to Greek.

The use of hell is a matter of translation preference just like I said. The Greek translate Sheol to Hades, when the Greek version was further translated to other languages, 'hell' is used. While 'hell' bears one more meaning, that is, the burning hell.

Tell me what human could possibly ascend to heaven, no-one!
Tell me who could make there bed in hell, no-one!

You don't seem to acquire the concepts in Christianity well as you sound to be. Everyone (except for a few) will go to the place sheol/Hades/hell after death. After the Judgment some will go to Heaven, some others will be in a permanent separation from God.

Moreover, you are not more legitimate than the ancient Jews who used the Sheol concept as it is, it's not equivalent to 'grave' as you believe.

Are you trying to tell me God lives in hell it says He is there if this is literal!

First, you need to know the Christianity concept that God can be omnipresence, that is, He can be anyway as He wishes. Second, when the word 'hell' is used the same as Sheol or Hades, it's a place almost every soul will go, good or bad. They stay there for the final judgment to come. It is also believed that those under God's protection will either be put to a separate place in Hades called "paradise" or put to a sleep, and thus Paul describe them as being fallen asleep in Christ. It is in Christ where they are. and they are thus with God. While the wicked will be abandoned in Hades but without being with God.

If the translators did their job properly then Sheol in English should be rendered grave!

That remains your own opinion, and you are no where better than the translators.

Put the word grave in all old testament places that say Sheol and it fits perfectly.

Again, as I have illustrated, it's a big NO. Your doctrine can't explain the 2 verses I provided, can't explain Samual's spirit appeared, can't explain how Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, can't explain other Jews documents such as the book of Enoch. Rather all you can do is just to spin or explain away those scenarios.

Are you saying Jesus did not go to hell?
The verse clearly says Jesus went to hell?

You can't even understand what others are trying to say, as shown in those verses, He went to hell and preached to those already dead. It's you who denied that He went to hell.

Because it does not fit with your theories you say it did not happen?

I would love to hear how you get around the fact that Jesus went to hell?

So you are trying to accuss me of denying Jesus went to hell, at the same time you are trying to accuss me of saying He did? Gee. You are living in your own contradiction!

It seems to me you are in a confusion. On one you disagree with me when I said Jesus went to hell, on the other you somehow agree with me that He did went to hell.

You simply ignore the ancient Jews doctrines, you simply ignore the Church's stance, you simply ignore all those translators who are either professed in Hebrew or Greek just because the reality doesn't fit your theories.

Have you never heard of the verse when the young man approaches Jesus and says i will follow you but first let me bury my father. Jesus answers let the dead bury the dead. Do you understand there are different words for dead and meanings, Jesus says you can be alive yet dead! One is physical one is spiritual.
I have more verses like this to follow but I cant wait to hear how you explain the Bible is wrong Jesus did not go to hell.

Since when I said that Jesus did not go to hell. I thought it was you who deny that. On the one hand you deny even the existence of hell, on the other you agree with me that Jesus did go to hell?!!!!!

Moreover, in your example, Jesus meant to say that those still living makes no difference than those already dead. But it has to do with my given verse which refers to the already dead instead of the still living.

Let's have a look at the given verse again,

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

"For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

It refers to those who are now dead, not those who are now still living but resemble the dead. Clear!

Gee.

If you say he did go to hell describe using scripture how one who never sinned was sent to hell?

Everyone will go there, those never sinned will be with God and are said to be fallen asleep with Christ, or are said to be in paradise.

Psa 30:3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit.
Same word Sheol used hear why did they not say hell?
Sin creley Craig
Please study the old testament

Gees. Where's your ability of comprehension?!!!!!! I thought I just show you the 2 translated versions of the same verse, one used 'hell', the other used 'Sheol'.

Get a clue about what Christianity is before you brag. And I mean it! And you contradict yourself alot, say, by agreeing Jesus when to hell while even deny the existence of hell, and etc.

And I recommend to go to a church to learn from some ministers instead of reading by yourself and interpret the verses by your own will. By doing so at least you can learn to treat yourself more correctly than to think that you are more legitimate than the ancient Jews, than the translators and so forth.

 

[jasoncran]

hawkins some of that sounds like soul sleep. do you believe in soul sleep.

i do believe in eternal damnation.

 

[Hawkins]

hawkins some of that sounds like soul sleep. do you believe in soul sleep.
i do believe in eternal damnation.

It depends on how you define soul sleep. I actually offered two views, that is, the paradise view and the 'fallen asleep' will. My preference goes to the latter, because I think that I actually experienced through the whole process call death, till to the 'soul sleep' part.

I thus prophesy something like this,
You shall experience the external force which pulls your soul up.
You shall see the 2 orange squares, one bigger and the other smaller.

I believe that it's pretty much what you shall experience at your last moment before the sleep, so verify my words when time comes. ;)

 

[jasoncran]

i assume a state of non existence, but that doenst fit the statement by paul dead in christ or asleep in christ to well.

 

[Hawkins]

i assume a state of non existence, but that doenst fit the statement by paul dead in christ or asleep in christ to well.

I know where you are coming from.

I was raised in a country (commies) where all kinds of religions are virtually absent. I didn't have much concept about Christianity. I didn't have much concept about the triunic soul/spirit/body nature either. I simply experienced through death to know. And only after the experience that I dug into Christianity to know that it best describes things about an afterlife.

So here comes my another "prophecy" which shall occur a bit earlier than what are said in my previous post.

The spirit will fly out like a dove.
The body is just a cocoon and the soul a worm. (imagine how a worm trying to get out of a cocoon)