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Is man not really capable of seeking God?

Walpole

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In a recently closed thread, someone was positing that man does not even have the capability of seeking God. Is this an actual belief of some Christians?
 

Who Me

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In a recently closed thread, someone was positing that man does not even have the capability of seeking God. Is this an actual belief of some Christians?

Work it out, non Christians are slaves to sin, slaves of the devil. How does a slave get free from a master who does not want to let them go?

There are no ' good ' or ' innocent ' people, there are only slaves of the devil or slaves of Jesus, who have been adopted into God's family.

we don't save our selves, Jesus does that and God gives us the gift of faith.
 

Walpole

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Scripture says that man under sin does not seek after the True God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Is this the verse which forms the basis for people actually believing man is not capable of seeking after God? If so, it demonstrates the dangers of cherry picking verses completely out of context in order to try and force them to fit into one's theological system.

Perhaps you are not aware that St. Paul is actually quoting David in Psalm 14. He makes this clear in verse 10, whereby he says, "As it is written..."

If we read Psalm 14, it states, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one." - Psalm 14:1-3

Thus David states it is the fool who says there is no God, who does not do good and does not seek. If St. Paul was not quoting David but instead meant in absolute terms that man does not seek God (as you imply), he would be contradicting his very own teaching, as just one chapter prior he says this to the Romans...

"To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." - Romans 2:7
 

Walpole

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Scripture says that man under sin does not seek after the True God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

I think some people believe all that "seek and ye shall find" stuff, along with "believe" and "have faith" is just poetic language...
 

wondering

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Man naturally does not seek God Rom 3
As daninthelionsden stated in post 4, we are told many times to seek God.
I believe I already spoke to this with you.

Apparently there is a conflict in the bible....
Apparently God made a mistake.....
or maybe Paul made a mistake.....
or maybe the verse you use means something else?

Because I read all throughout scripture that we are to seek God.

Here are just some verses that state that we are to seek God and that
God is happy with those who seek Him. (and there are many more)

So how do we handle this conflict??


Matthew 6:33 ESV / 2,151 helpful votes

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 1,809 helpful votes

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17 ESV / 1,755 helpful votes

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11 ESV / 1,750 helpful votes

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13 ESV / 1,654 helpful votes

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Psalm 63:1 ESV / 1,559 helpful votes

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV / 1,547 helpful votes

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8 ESV / 1,327 helpful votes

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10 ESV / 1,280 helpful votes

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 14:2 ESV / 1,192 helpful votes

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

Psalm 34:10 ESV / 1,156 helpful votes

The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV / 1,110 helpful votes

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10 ESV / 1,068 helpful votes

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 119:2 ESV / 1,057 helpful votes

Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart,

Lamentations 3:25 ESV / 1,009 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

source: https://www.openbible.info/topics/seeking_god
 

brightfame52

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As daninthelionsden stated in post 4, we are told many times to seek God.
I believe I already spoke to this with you.

Apparently there is a conflict in the bible....
Apparently God made a mistake.....
or maybe Paul made a mistake.....
or maybe the verse you use means something else?

Because I read all throughout scripture that we are to seek God.

Here are just some verses that state that we are to seek God and that
God is happy with those who seek Him. (and there are many more)

So how do we handle this conflict??


Matthew 6:33 ESV / 2,151 helpful votes

But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Hebrews 11:6 ESV / 1,809 helpful votes

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17 ESV / 1,755 helpful votes

I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

1 Chronicles 16:11 ESV / 1,750 helpful votes

Seek the Lord and his strength; seek his presence continually!

Jeremiah 29:13 ESV / 1,654 helpful votes

You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.

Psalm 63:1 ESV / 1,559 helpful votes

A Psalm of David, when he was in the wilderness of Judah. O God, you are my God; earnestly I seek you; my soul thirsts for you; my flesh faints for you, as in a dry and weary land where there is no water.

Deuteronomy 4:29 ESV / 1,547 helpful votes

But from there you will seek the Lord your God and you will find him, if you search after him with all your heart and with all your soul.

Matthew 7:7-8 ESV / 1,327 helpful votes

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

Psalm 9:10 ESV / 1,280 helpful votes

And those who know your name put their trust in you, for you, O Lord, have not forsaken those who seek you.

Psalm 14:2 ESV / 1,192 helpful votes

The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God.

Psalm 34:10 ESV / 1,156 helpful votes

The young lions suffer want and hunger; but those who seek the Lord lack no good thing.

Isaiah 55:6-7 ESV / 1,110 helpful votes

“Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalm 119:10 ESV / 1,068 helpful votes

With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!

Psalm 119:2 ESV / 1,057 helpful votes

Blessed are those who keep his testimonies, who seek him with their whole heart,

Lamentations 3:25 ESV / 1,009 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful

The Lord is good to those who wait for him, to the soul who seeks him.

source: https://www.openbible.info/topics/seeking_god
I dont see no conflict. Rom 3 is speaking about men by nature under sin, they dont seek God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Hence if a person does seek God, they have been made a new creature, they are regenerate, so no conflict
 

for_his_glory

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Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Many do not seek for their hearts are hardened Why do people no longer seek God because:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
 

wondering

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I dont see no conflict. Rom 3 is speaking about men by nature under sin, they dont seek God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Hence if a person does seek God, they have been made a new creature, they are regenerate, so no conflict
Well then....
No problem I guess !!

If there is one verse saying one thing...
and many verses saying another thing....
I guess the one verse wins out.

Thus doing away with the first rule of exegesis....
Always use the simple verse if there is a difference....
Always use the general principles found in scripture if there is a conflict.
Or, at least, what appears to be a conflict.

Romans 3:11 is speaking about the Jews....
See verse 3:1 which asks what advantage the Jew has...
the reply is none...

And then Paul quotes from the O.T. Psalm 36:1
stating that all men ARE UNDER SIN. We are all born
lost and under the control of a sinful nature.
To which God has provided a remedy...His Son.

Then read Romans 3:12-13
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;


Those that have turned aside have tongues like an open grave.
Both Jews and Gentiles have turned aside.

This says nothing about the seeking of God...it's about those that do not seek God.

It ends by saying that they care nothing about God....and yet
Romans 1:19-20 states that some have always accepted God.

You're going to have to reconcile Romans 3:11 with the rest of the bible.
 

wondering

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I dont see no conflict. Rom 3 is speaking about men by nature under sin, they dont seek God Rom 3:11

11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Hence if a person does seek God, they have been made a new creature, they are regenerate, so no conflict
Maybe Walpole could begin a new thread, eventually about how regeneration cannot come before salvation.
IOW,,,one cannot be saved before one is saved.

The entire bible has to be twisted and turned to suit the doctrine which has been coined after the name of
one man....

This is not how to study the bible.
 

Walpole

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Maybe Walpole could begin a new thread, eventually about how regeneration cannot come before salvation.
IOW,,,one cannot be saved before one is saved.

The entire bible has to be twisted and turned to suit the doctrine which has been coined after the name of
one man....

This is not how to study the bible.

The same group of people also believe man is incapable of repenting. He has to be zapped by God first, which is completely backwards!

Ezekiel 18:30-32 ---> Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!

God says ---> Repent, rid yourself of offenses and get a new heart and a new spirit.

But this group says ---> That's backwards! Get zapped by God, get a new heart and spirit then you can repent.


Another example...

Acts 11:18 ---> 'When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, 'Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.'”

God says ---> Repentance leads to life.

This group says ---> That's backwards! God zaps you with new life and only then you repent.



If you want to take it a step further, why is repentance even necessary based on this group's theology? After all, God created them depraved. So it's God's fault anyway. It should be God repenting for making them depraved and wicked.
 
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we are born into sin because of The Fall. Jesus offers the way to The Father. 'many are called, few are chosen.' Jesus says that the sheep -know His voice- , which to me indicates that there's an inner calling, which lines up with traditional Calvinism.
 

brightfame52

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Fhg

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Many do not seek for their hearts are hardened Why do people no longer seek God because:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Many do not seek for their hearts are hardened Why do people no longer seek God because:

2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2Ti 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
2Ti 3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
2Ti 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
These scriptures apply to the Sheep or followers of Christ and not the unbelieving world.
 

brightfame52

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Well then....
No problem I guess !!

If there is one verse saying one thing...
and many verses saying another thing....
I guess the one verse wins out.

Thus doing away with the first rule of exegesis....
Always use the simple verse if there is a difference....
Always use the general principles found in scripture if there is a conflict.
Or, at least, what appears to be a conflict.

Romans 3:11 is speaking about the Jews....
See verse 3:1 which asks what advantage the Jew has...
the reply is none...

And then Paul quotes from the O.T. Psalm 36:1
stating that all men ARE UNDER SIN. We are all born
lost and under the control of a sinful nature.
To which God has provided a remedy...His Son.

Then read Romans 3:12-13
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”

13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;


Those that have turned aside have tongues like an open grave.
Both Jews and Gentiles have turned aside.

This says nothing about the seeking of God...it's about those that do not seek God.

It ends by saying that they care nothing about God....and yet
Romans 1:19-20 states that some have always accepted God.

You're going to have to reconcile Romans 3:11 with the rest of the bible.
Lol if a scripture says that none seeks after God then none seeks after God Rom 3:11. What you want to pretend the scripture does not exist.
 

brightfame52

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Maybe Walpole could begin a new thread, eventually about how regeneration cannot come before salvation.
IOW,,,one cannot be saved before one is saved.

The entire bible has to be twisted and turned to suit the doctrine which has been coined after the name of
one man....

This is not how to study the bible.
One must be saved from death before they come to God. Dead people don't come, the quickened do. Man by nature is spiritually dead in sin, lost!
 
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