Is Mary ONLY a Catholic doctrine?

[TruthHunter]

We all know that Catholics show reverence to mary, but I've been wondering what different protestant denominations teach about Mary.

"Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of us all.
If Christ be ours . . . all that he has must be ours,
and His Mother also must be ours." -Martin Luther

"Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase, 'the Mother of God'. No one can say anything greater of her or to her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees . . ." -Martin Luther

http://www.legionofmary.org/luther.html

I have also found this other cite which talks about Luther and Mary. Do Lutherans still hold today that Mary has this role?

Are there any other denominations who profess in the Queenship, Mary Mother of God, or other veneration of Mary
http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/marti ... n_mary.htm

Peace of Christ,
Ben

 

[thessalonian]

The Orthodox I am sure OC will agree have a considerable amount of Marian theology. It differs in a few areas with Catholicism. They do accept Mary's perpetual virginity.

The Anglicans also have some Marian theology.

I don't think the Lutherans say alot about her. In general it seems most Protestant denominations are almost afraid to talk about her. When I do hear them talk about her it seems like it has to be in the context of comments about Catholicism.

 

[Gary]

....I don't think the Lutherans say alot about her. In general it seems most Protestant denominations are almost afraid to talk about her. When I do hear them talk about her it seems like it has to be in the context of comments about Catholicism.

Wrong again.

Read and learn:

(1) Giving Mary her due
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/biblestudie ... erdue.html

(2) The Blessed Evangelical Mary
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/012/1.34.html

.... the Reformers expressed a positive devotion to Mary. Both Zwingli and Bullinger defended the Ave Maria not as a prayer to Mary but as an expression of praise in honor of her. (In fact, many medieval versions of the Ave Maria did not include the phrase most repugnant to Reformers: "pray for us sinners, now and in the hour of our death.")

Calvin too refers to Mary as "the treasurer of grace," the one who kept faith as a deposit. Through her, Calvin says, we have received this precious gift from God. "She deserves to be called blessed, for God has accorded her a singular distinction, to prepare his son for the world, in whom she was spiritually reborn."

In 1521, Luther, sequestered in the Wartburg, prepared for press his commentary on the Magnificat. Mary, he wrote, is the embodiment of God's unmerited grace.

She is called blessed not because of her virginity or even her humility, but because she was chosen as the person and place where God's glory would enter most deeply into the human story. "I am only the workshop in which God operates," Luther has Mary say.

Above all, the Reformers recognize Mary as the one who hears the Word of God and responds in faith, and thus is justified by faith alone. Mary was a disciple of Christ before she was his mother, for had she not believed, she would not have conceived. Mary's faith too is not the achievement of merit, but the gift of divine grace. This means that when we praise and love Mary, it is God whom we praise for his gracious favor to his chosen handmaid.

(3) Recovering a Protestant Mary
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/2004/003/4.13.html

• 

 

[Orthodox Christian]

One thing one must understand about Christianity Today and Christian History magazines is that they represent a very 'edgy' Protestantism. Both have had Eastern Orthodox contributors, and neither represent the type of Fundamentalism that we see operating on this site. I'm sorry, that's not a shot at any one, it's simply, demonstrably true.

The point of some merit, which is one of the points that Thess was implicitly making, is that Protestants have become disconnected from Mary. Mostly this is due to their continuing, virulent anti-Catholicism.

From the Christian History article

If the Christmas pageant is not enough, how else can Protestants re-connect, without buying into some of the non-canonical doctrines?

Note the admission of dis-connect.

The solution, according to the authors, is in correct understanding of Mary's elevated, yet human position:

Yes, Eastern iconographers have it right: they never depict Mary alone, but always with Christ, the apostles, and the saints. The New Testament portrays her as bridging the Old and New Testaments at Jesus' birth, and then at the end of Jesus' life, Mary is both among the last at the cross, and among the first in the Upper Room, for the birth of the church at Pentecost.

And it has not been just the Eastern Orthodox or the early and medieval fathers who have seen Mary as a representative par excellence of the church. The Reformers noticed that when all of the disciples had fled in fear, Mary remained true to Christ and his word. Her fidelity unto the Cross showed that the true faith could be preserved in one individual. And the Reformers honored her for this, considering her the mother of the (true remnant) church.

Three points:
1. Iconography is never considered "correct" by the voices of Fundamentalism
2. When I pointed out some months ago that i is appropriate to depict Mary with Christ, then the derision was "they make Jesus a baby" as if He never was
3. What Protestant see Mary in the manner "mother of the (remnant) church"???

As I said, these magazines that urge Evangelicals to re-connect are in no manner representative of mainstream Evangelicalism, and would be despised and spit upon by Fundamentalists. I commend Gary for recommending these fringe Evangelicals.

It was a free book from Christianity Today "an Ancient Commentary on the Gospel Mark" that set me down the road to becoming Orthodox. Beware of Christianity Today- they're horribly reasonable and self-critical, they lead many astray, I fear.

 

[Gary]

As I said, these magazines that urge Evangelicals to re-connect are in no manner representative of mainstream Evangelicalism, and would be despised and spit upon by Fundamentalists. I commend Gary for recommending these fringe Evangelicals.

Not true.

For instance, James I. Packer is a professor of theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, and is a senior editor of Christianity Today. An ordained Anglican minister, he holds the D. Phil. from Oxford University. Dr. Packer’s many published works include the best selling Knowing God.

Read and learn more:
http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

He has written many books including...

http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

 

[Orthodox Christian]

So you would have us to believe that "an ordained Anglican minister" (they're known as priests, Gary) is representative of the Evangelical mainstream? :roll:

Make no mistake, I am not denying that there are many thoughtful, insightful Evangelicals. It was while an Evangelical that I read Lewis, another Anglican, who is read widely by Evangelicals. They ignore some of his conclusions. They read him for the same reason they read Packer, the same reason a few read Francis Schaeffer, the same reason a handful read Chesterton and even that Catholic Muggeridge and that Orthodox Dostoyevsky or even Tolstoy (who rightly criticized the Orthodox Church, and was excommunicated for doing so)- they are looking for something a little weightier and with substance.

It's quite alright: Christianity Today has admitted the point of contention, which is that Protestants have disconnected from Mary. What I don't see highlighted is the latent chauvinism of Fundamentalist Protestants. Does it really stick in their craw that the preeminent saint, the archetype of faithfulness, is a woman?

This is a question, not an accusation, Gary, so if you do respond,
try to respond without your usual terse counter-attack. After all, the authors which you have been citing are not on the counter-attack: they are actually providing thoughful and self-critical analysis. It's a healthy endeavor to do so.

 

[MrVersatile48]

GOD MAKES THE RULES: NOT MAN..

If the Triune God - Father, Son & Holy Spirit - had wanted us to pray to Mary - or to worship her - the Bible would have told us

But to pray to her - or to worship her in hymns, etc - is blasphemous idolatry

It is falsely making a goddess of her

Mary was NOT an eternal virgin - the Bible clearly records that Jesus had younger brothers & sisters & that Mary was their mother

She was not miraculously lifted to Heaven without dying - that comes from the pagan occult legend of Bacchus - the god of binge drinkers - fictitiously carrying his mother alive into Heaven

I just have time to say that you can access the 'new' RC catechism by searching Vatican site

If you compare each & every distinctive RC dogma & practice witth the Bible, they simply do not stand up to Scripture

More than that - they have all been traced back to the forbidden pagan occult of Babylon - the historicity of "The 2 Babylons" by Rev Alexander Hislop, has never seriously been disputed

"Queen of Heaven" is a pagan occult title given to the false goddesses of pagan fertility cults' temple prostitution orgies

The Bible forbids the title - search it @ http://www.BibleGateway.org

See also the many details of Revelation 17's infamous Great Whore, who persecuted the true Bride of Christ

The 7-hilled city is Rome - the title, 'a man of the 7 hills' meant a Roman citizen in the ancient world

& who else spends that Rev 17 fortune on gold, silver, prercious jewels & costly incense/woods/vestments?

"Mystery Babylon" shows the occult domination of the ecumenical movement

Pope JP2 had several meetings with witches, shamen, mediums, etc - yet called evangelicals "ravenous wolvesmout to devour the flock"

Reality check: Bible-believing, born-again, Spirit-led Christians ARE the flock of God

False prophets are not - as in Rev 13, Matt 7, Matt 24, etc

Must go!

 

[cj]

I have long consider Christianity Today to be a propaganda tool for the anti-Christ culture that calls itself Christianity.

A culture that finds its roots in the early apostate religions that have for centuries attempted to brand themselves as being of Christ.

The apple does not fall far from the tree, nor are the ways of the daughter harlots much different to their Mother.


Think about this,....

What would Satan's hidden spys/workers look like?

And if the Adversary's great counterfeit work is the apostate religious system, then what would be the work of this Adversary's spys/workers?


In love,
cj

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Thank you, gentlemen, for firmly establishing my point.

:o

 

[MrVersatile48]

The Bible says that Satan masquerades as an angel of light & that his agents do the same

I just have time to say that many RC 'madonna' statues, worldwide, have golden hair, blue eyes & pale skin - just like forbidden pagan occult teple prostitution goddesses Venus, Astarte, etc

Not the dark hair & eyes/tanned skin of Jewess Mary

Much more serious is that pagan madonna/child inc incest - eg Isis & Osiris

A common title given to the male was 'lover of the mother'

I won't print the obscene modern equivalent

But it was also the root of paedophilia

RC cover-ups of paedophile priests are deep seated in root

& need uprooting

As in Revelation 18 - "Come out from among them & be separate, so that you will not share their punishment"

 

[Orthodox Christian]

As Christianity Today commented

Yes, Eastern iconographers have it right: they never depict Mary alone, but always with Christ

Here is a decidely non- Anglo Mary with Christ
http://www.mirandafinearts.com/artists/ ... otokos.jpg

So we have Semitic Mary with Christ, an image of some controversy nonetheless among the iconoclasts.

 

[Gary]

So you would have us to believe that "an ordained Anglican minister" (they're known as priests, Gary) is representative of the Evangelical mainstream?

Feel free to contact J.I. Packer and ask him directly.... or contact his publisher, Tyndale House Publishers. The quote I used is from the cover of his book Concise Theology!

James I. Packer is a professor of theology at Regent College in Vancouver, British Columbia, and is a senior editor of Christianity Today. An ordained Anglican minister, he holds the D. Phil. from Oxford University. Dr. Packer’s many published works include the best selling Knowing God.

As for him representing Evangelical mainstream.... I think the endorsements he has received prove that point.

“This guide to historic Christian beliefs, from one who is without a doubt one of the greatest living theologians, is an extremely apt summary of the Christian faith. Written in a lucid style, it does not embroil itself in theological controversies, but provides a readily understandable statement of the Reformed doctrine, constellated at every point by scriptural documentation.â€Â
Roger R. Nicole - Reformed Theological Seminary

“I am constantly on the lookout for succinct summaries of Christian thought that can be confidently and widely circulated in the church. This is one of the best.â€Â
Donald A. Carson - Trinity Evangelical Divinity School

“Concise Theology has all the hallmarks we have come to expect from its author: biblical and spiritual theology, tightly but securely packed, written with grace and calculated to produce praise and obedience. It will serve equally well as an introduction to doctrine, a manual of theological terms, or a devotional study.â€Â
Sinclair B. Ferguson - Westminster Theological Seminary

“Concise Theology has rendered our faith’s grand verities with a graceful economy and lucidness available only to a master of both theology and the English language. A must for all who desire to clearly present God’s Word.â€Â
R. Kent Hughes - College Church, Wheaton

“Biblical theology may be compressed as a trash compactor: the contents are there and may even be recognizable. Or it may be caught like a bud bursting into bloom. Jim Packer’s garden of theology has the precision of gem cutting, but like the hymns of the church, it lifts truth in praise.â€Â
Edmund P. Clowney - Westminster Theological Seminary

“The ancient Greeks used to say that the goal of oratory is to give a sea of matter in a drop of language. J. I. Packer has done exactly that: he has compressed the essentials of Christian theology into manageable scope and thus has provided a readable, comprehensive handbook for thinking, learning Christians.â€Â
James M. Boice - Tenth Presbyterian Church, Philadelphia

http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/packer/index.html

:D :D

 

[Gary]

My frequent quoting of the Westminster Confession may raise some eyebrows, since I am an Anglican and not a Presbyterian. But since the Confession was intended to amplify the Thirty-none Articles, and most of its framers were Anglican clergy, and since it something of a masterpiece, “the ripest fruit of Reformation creed-making†as B.B. Warfield called it, I think I am entitled to value it as part of my Reformed Anglican heritage, and to use it as a major resource.

I gratefully acknowledge the hidden hand of my much-admired friend R.C. Sproul, from whom came the germ idea for several of these outlines. Though our styles differ, we think very much alike, and have cooperated happily in an number of projects. I find that we are sometimes referred to as the Reformed Mafia, but hard work breaks no bones, and on we go.

http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/pa ... ml#preface



Enjoy the Westminster Confession of Faith
http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

:wink:

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Favorable book reviews are your proof that the Evangelical on the street endorses a reconsideration of the Evangelical position on Mary?
:

As for the people who read the books in question, I had already commented at some length

Make no mistake, I am not denying that there are many thoughtful, insightful Evangelicals. It was while an Evangelical that I read Lewis, another Anglican, who is read widely by Evangelicals. They ignore some of his conclusions. They read him for the same reason they read Packer, the same reason a few read Francis Schaeffer, the same reason a handful read Chesterton and even that Catholic Muggeridge and that Orthodox Dostoyevsky or even Tolstoy (who rightly criticized the Orthodox Church, and was excommunicated for doing so)- they are looking for something a little weightier and with substance.

But don't let that stop you from quoting more favorable reviews from "thoughtful, insightful Evangelicals."

We'll allow cj's comments to stand-in for the Evangelical mainstream.
Or would you like to suggest that cj is a fringe fundamentalist, and distance yourself from his comments?

(prediction: the preceding question will be ignored or distorted.)

Speaking of avoided questions:
Would an ordained Anglican priest be considered "mainstream" Evangelical?

Does it really stick in their (Fundamentlists) craw that the preeminent saint, the archetype of faithfulness, is a woman?

 

[Gary]

Orthodox Christian wrote:
So you would have us to believe that "an ordained Anglican minister" (they're known as priests, Gary) is representative of the Evangelical mainstream?

This We Believe

The Good News of Jesus Christ for the World

THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST: AN EVANGELICAL CELEBRATION" IS COPYRIGHT 1999 BY THE COMMITTEE ON EVANGELICAL UNITY IN THE GOSPEL

The drafting commitee:

John N. Akers
John Ankerberg
John Armstrong
D.A. Carson
Keith Davy
Maxie Dunnam
Timothy George
Scott Hafemann
Erwin Lutzer
Harold Myra
David Neff
Thomas Oden
J.I. Packer
R.C. Sproul
John Woodbridge

Confirmed Endorsing Committee (as of May 19, 1999)

etc
etc

http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/about/ec.html

Copyright © 1999 by the author or Christianity Today, Inc./Christianity Today magazine. Used with permisison. For reprint information call 630-260-6200 or e-mail cteditor@christianitytoday.com.
June 14, 1999

 

[thessalonian]

I won't print the obscene modern equivalent

But it was also the root of paedophilia

RC cover-ups of paedophile priests are deep seated in root

THis seems to be an arguement for every thread. Paedophile priests. You know, it's not even paedophilia that has been going on. But of course you don't really care to properly characterize it and analyize it. You don't even care that it goes on in your Protestant denominations. All you care about is bashing Catholicism because it makes you feel okay where you are at. Somehow pointing out the sins of Catholics "proves" your religious beliefs. It's a red herring. It proves nothing other than that there are sinners in every denom. That mankind has a sinful nature that needs to be healed and can be healed, even the darkest of sins, if one turns to Christ. Satan of course will deny this and say that priests who sin are damned to hell.

 

[cj]

We'll allow cj's comments to stand-in for the Evangelical mainstream.

Oh, your master has taught you well religious Grasshopper.

How subtle is your misleading suggestion of a link between cj and the Evangelical mainstream.

Or would you like to suggest that cj is a fringe fundamentalist, and distance yourself from his comments?

Tell you what, how about cj suggesting something honest......

Just love cj, and allow cj to love you.


In love,
cj

 

[thessalonian]

Re: GOD MAKES THE RULES: NOT MAN..

If the Triune God - Father, Son & Holy Spirit - had wanted us to pray to Mary - or to worship her - the Bible would have told us

I agree. It is wrong to worship Mary. That is the Catholic teaching. The Bible does tell us to ask the prayers of other Christians and that is what we do when we pray to Mary asking her intercession to her son. It is no different than me asking you for prayers.

But to pray to her - or to worship her in hymns, etc - is blasphemous idolatry[/quote]

Would it be idolatry to write a song about my wife? Is that blasphemous idolatry. Your doing a great job of showing that Protestants in general can't think about Mary without lashing out at Catholicism. they have no theology on her that stands on it's own.

It is falsely making a goddess of her

Mary is not a Goddess. She can do nothing for us except ask her son to provide his grace in our lives. If that is a goddess then it's a pretty weak one. A Goddess could directly bring about what we ask. Mary in Catholic theology cannot do anything on her own.

Mary was NOT an eternal virgin - the Bible clearly records that Jesus had younger brothers & sisters & that Mary was their mother

Can you site me the verse that says "Mary's son Bob"? Thanks. As for the brothers of Jesus, in the broad context in which the term brothers is used in the Hebrew culture, those called Jesus brothers and considering all the passages on the matter, it is quite likely that none of those called brothers are actually Jesus brothers. For instance, James and Joses, and Simon are quite likely the sons of Mary, wife of Clopas if you follow their names through scripture.

She was not miraculously lifted to Heaven without dying - that comes from the pagan occult legend of Bacchus - the god of binge drinkers - fictitiously carrying his mother alive into Heaven

I don't know of any Church that insists that Mary did not die. You overstate the Catholic position on the matter.

I just have time to say that you can access the 'new' RC catechism by searching Vatican site

Find in that Catechism where it says Mary was/is a goddess or Mary did not die as dogma?

If you compare each & every distinctive RC dogma & practice witth the Bible, they simply do not stand up to Scripture

They do not stand to your OPINION of what scripture says. I will challenge you on ever practice to a debate and you will do nothing but give me your opinion that my interprutation is wrong. I can support EVERY Catholic doctrine with scritpure.

More than that - they have all been traced back to the forbidden pagan occult of Babylon - the historicity of "The 2 Babylons" by Rev Alexander Hislop, has never seriously been disputed

"Queen of Heaven" is a pagan occult title given to the false goddesses of pagan fertility cults' temple prostitution orgies

And there were trinities and Sons of Gods in pagan literature. So I guess that proves those titles are fobidden? That something is in paganism does not prove it is pagan. Ever heard the story of Gilgamesh? Two Babylongs, never disputed? By who? Other biggot Protestants who will believe any fairy tale against Catholicism. I doudt your statement very much.

The Bible forbids the title - search it @ http://www.BibleGateway.org

Where is the title forbidden? Tell me, is there a queen in Psalm 45? Is that a Psalm about Christ's Kingdom? Yes. Who would that queen arrrayed in gold, sitting at the right hand be?

See also the many details of Revelation 17's infamous Great Whore, who persecuted the true Bride of Christ

The 7-hilled city is Rome - the title, 'a man of the 7 hills' meant a Roman citizen in the ancient world[/quote]

The Vatican is not on one of the seven hills. Sorry. It's been quite nicely rebutted here.

http://www.catholic.com/library/whore_of_babylon.asp
and here:http://www.catholic.com/library/hunting_the_whore_of_babylon.asp

& who else spends that Rev 17 fortune on gold, silver, prercious jewels & costly incense/woods/vestments?

Silly boy.

"Mystery Babylon" shows the occult domination of the ecumenical movement

Pope JP2 had several meetings with witches, shamen, mediums, etc - yet called evangelicals "ravenous wolvesmout to devour the flock"

I don't know of any meetings with witches, shamen, mediums, etc. Did you know that Paul met with pagan idol worshippers in Acts 17.
Where is that quote found? I've never heard it and doudt that it is real. Proof?

Reality check: Bible-believing, born-again, Spirit-led Christians ARE the flock of God[/b]

I'll let God judge each individual.

False prophets are not - as in Rev 13, Matt 7, Matt 24, etc

Must go!

I see you got right in to the thread's question and answered it directly (with slanders).
Come back and visit us.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

We'll allow cj's comments to stand-in for the Evangelical mainstream.

Oh, your master has taught you well religious Grasshopper.

How subtle is your misleading suggestion of a link between cj and the Evangelical mainstream.

Not misleading, Daniel-san: instructive. Wax on, wax off.

But since you off-handedly brought up master Po, you would do well to heed his advice

"Evil cannot be conquered in the world...It can only be resisted within oneself." - Master Po

Or would you like to suggest that cj is a fringe fundamentalist, and distance yourself from his comments?

Tell you what, how about cj suggesting something honest......

Just love cj, and allow cj to love you.

As Tina asked, "what's love got to do with it?"
She had a reason to ask, having experienced something that promoted itself as "love" but felt a lot more like abuse.

caveat emptor.
James

 

[AwedbyGod]

What would Satan's hidden spys/workers look like?
cj

I dunno. Got a recent picture of yourself you could post?