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Is Partial Preterism a New Perspective?

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When was Christ not King.
He is King of kings.

A short list of His own words;

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Word of God tells us simply;

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

IMO Christian of today are looking for the same king as the Jewish leaders did 2000 years ago....They missed Him


Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
 
Guys do you like having a place to talk about this stuff? If you do please respect the requests of politeness.
If you dont then dont post.
 
The church is the body of Christ manifested to the world and He is the head over it. Jesus is enthroned in heaven. There is no need for Him to "put on flesh" to return again. He has given His church the Holy Spirit to represent His kingdom on earth.

You've pulled a single Greek word [erchomai] out of the time and context in which it was written and constructed an entire doctrine out of it that - in this case - is not supported scripturally.

Jesus doesn't have to put of flesh, He already wears glorified flesh.

He is ready.

Are you?


JLB
 
Originally posted by reba,

When was Christ not King.
He is King of kings.

A short list of His own words;

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The Word of God tells us simply;

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

IMO Christian of today are looking for the same king as the Jewish leaders did 2000 years ago....They missed Him

YES exactly! That is understanding "in the Spirit" - especially the statement:

IMO Christian of today are looking for the same king as the Jewish leaders did 2000 years ago....They missed Him

Preterists, futurists, dispensationalists, etc. can argue back and forth for centuries, but their understanding of Christ's "coming" is based on carnal thinking, not spiritual understanding. They are caught in the VERY SAME "religious snare" the people were when the Word was made flesh and tabernacled among us (John 1:14)

Originally posted by Stormcrow,

The church is the body of Christ manifested to the world and He is the head over it. Jesus is enthroned in heaven. There is no need for Him to "put on flesh" to return again. He has given His church the Holy Spirit to represent His kingdom on earth.

You misunderstand. Not HIS FLESH, but rather OUR FLESH. Also, if you still think heaven is a piece of real estate "out there" in space somewhere, rather than within your own thinking (within your heart and mind - i.e. - a state of being), then your road to enlightenment has reached an impasse which requires a total paradigm shift in your thinking.

The apostles spoke and wrote a language called "he Koine dialectos," and while a few generations ago this vernacular form of Greek was not fully known, the researches of archeologists have given us a complete and comprehensive understanding of the New Testament vocabulary. The Greek is a more precise language than the English. The English Bible uses a few terms which relate to the coming of the Lord, but there are actually six Greek words used in relation to the Lord's return.

  1. PAROUSIA. This word occurs twenty-four times in the New Testament. It comes from the verb PAREMI which means "at hand," "to be present." The noun signifies "Presence." This verb emphasizes the actual personal presence of the one who comes. "Be patient unto the COMING (presence) of the Lord" (James 5:7). PAROUSIA never indicates the act of coming or the arrival of a person, but denotes the presence of one who has already arrived.

  2. APOKALUPSIS. This word comes from the verb APOKALUPTO meaning "to uncover, "unveil," and stresses the appearing or revelation of one by means of an uncovering or unveiling. It is the disclosure of one who has been hidden under cover. "Be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the REVELATION (unveiling) of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:13).

  3. EPIPHANEIA. This word is to be found six times in the New Testament. It comes from a verb which signifies "to shine upon," "bring to light," "to appear," "to manifest." The noun is "manifestation," "brightness." It is the appearance out of darkness of a star that has been there all day, unseen and unperceived, and suddenly manifesting at night. This word is used in the sense of the glory or majesty that is revealed by the coming of the Lord.

  4. PHANEROO. This word means to render apparent or make manifest, not necessarily a visible presence, but a perception. "When He shall appear (become apparent), we shall be like Him" (1 John 3:2).

  5. ERCHOMAI. This word is used to indicate the actual act of coming, not, as with PAROUSIA, the presence of one who has arrived, but the event of coming. "Behold, HE COMETH (is in the act of coming) with clouds" (Revelation 1:7).

  6. HEKO. This word stresses the point of arrival at a certain place, as I am come and I am here. "Hold fast till I COME (to you)" (Revelation 2:25).

The distinction between the six Greek words enables one to see what the texts mean with reference to the coming of His presence, to His abiding presence, to the revelation or unveiling of His presence, to the manifestation or out-raying of the glory and majesty of His presence. By no means do any of these words mean identically the same thing. For instance, both the word EPIPHANEIA and PAROUSIA occur in a well-known verse:

"Then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the BRIGHTNESS (EPIPHANEIA) of His COMING (PAROUSIA)" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Actually translated the verse reads: "The MANIFESTATION of His PRESENCE."

An obvious example of a "COMING of Christ" was on Pentecost day. On the day of Pentecost Christ came again as the Comforter:

"And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of Truth: whom the world cannot receive, because it sees Him not, neither knows Him: but you know Him; for He DWELLS WITH YOU, and shall be IN YOU. I will not leave you comfortless (orphans): I WILL COME UNTO YOU. Yet A little while, and the world sees me no more; but YOU SEE ME: because I live, you shall live also. At that day you shall know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I IN YOU" (John 14:16-20).

And again, I will repost the many "comings" of Christ from Scripture:

  • In Mark 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS.
  • In Matthew 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.
  • In Revelation 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.
  • In Matthew 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.
  • In Revelation 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.
  • In Malachi 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.
  • In Philippians 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.
  • In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.
  • In Malachi 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.
  • In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.
  • In Hosea 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.
  • In Revelation 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.
  • In Matthew 25:31-34 He comes as KING.
  • In 1 Peter 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.
  • In Matthew 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.
  • In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.
  • In John 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.
  • In 2 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.
  • In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.
  • In Revelation 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.
  • In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.

also,

  • He comes to the Mount of Olives;
  • He comes to His temple;
  • He comes in glory;
  • He comes as Lord;
  • He comes in His Kingdom;
  • He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.

If the coming of the Lord is not a progressive revelation in many manifestations, then WHICH of the many comings enumerated earlier IS THE SECOND COMING? Using Scripture, tell me... which one?
 
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And again, I will repost the many "comings" of Christ from Scripture:


In Mark 13:26 He comes with CLOUDS In Matthew 24:27 He comes as LIGHTNING.

  • [*]In Revelation 16:15 He comes as a THIEF.

  • [*]In Matthew 25:6 He comes as the BRIDEGROOM.

  • [*]In Revelation 22:16 and 2:28 He comes as the MORNING STAR.

  • [*]In Malachi 4:2 He comes as the SUN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS ARISING.

  • [*]In Philippians 3:20-21 He comes in RESURRECTION POWER.

  • [*]In 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 He comes in FLAMING FIRE.

  • [*]In Malachi 3:1-3 He comes to His priesthood company as REFINER'S FIRE and FULLER'S SOAP.

  • [*]In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 He comes IN THE AIR.

  • [*]In Hosea 6:3 and James 5:7-8 He comes as the RAIN.

  • [*]In Revelation 19:11 & 14 He comes on a WHITE HORSE.

  • [*]In Matthew 25:31-34 He comes as KING.

  • [*]In 1 Peter 5:4 He comes as the CHIEF SHEPHERD.

  • [*]In Matthew 16:27 He comes WITH HIS ANGELS.

  • [*]In Jude 14 He comes WITH HIS SAINTS.

  • [*]In John 14:18 He comes TO HIS SAINTS.

  • [*]In 2 Thessalonians 1:10 He comes IN HIS SAINTS.

  • [*]In Jude 14 & 15 He comes in JUDGMENT.

  • [*]In Revelation 22:12 He comes WITH REWARDS.

  • [*]In 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 He comes with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, with the trump of God.
also,
  • He comes to the Mount of Olives;

  • [*]He comes to His temple;

  • [*]He comes in glory;

  • [*]He comes as Lord;

  • [*]He comes in His Kingdom;

  • [*]He comes as seasons of refreshing, etc., etc., etc.
If the coming of the Lord is not a progressive revelation in many manifestations, then WHICH of the many comings enumerated earlier IS THE SECOND COMING? Using Scripture, tell me... which one?

They are all the Second Coming.

You could ask the question another way by example...

Jesus is said to be:



  • God
  • Lord
  • Angel
  • Captain
  • King
  • Light
  • Word
  • Lion
  • Worm
Which one is He? Your logic has placed all of these descriptions in competition with each other, yet they are all describing the same person. So to, your ealier list of "comings" are all describing the same event.
 
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Originally posted by Tri Unity,

They are all the Second Coming.

You could ask the question another way by example...

Jesus is said to be:


God
Lord
Angel
Captain
King
Light
Word
Lion
Worm

Which one is He? Your logic has placed all of these descriptions in competition with each other, yet they are all describing the same person. So to, your ealier list of "comings" are all describing the same event.

Really? Hmmm. When He says, "I will not leave you orphans: I WILL COME TO YOU," is THAT "the second coming"? or is it when He declares, "Behold, I COME as a thief?" Or when He says, "I WILL COME unto you as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth," is that manifestation His "second coming"? Or is it when He comes as lightning, or as the sun of righteousness, or as the Bridegroom, or as King, or WITH His saints, or TO His saints, or IN His saints?

Paul said that Jesus would come with a "shout," also with the "voice of the archangel," and with the "trump of God." Jesus said, "Behold, I come as a thief." Certainly thieves do not blow trumpets and shout!

Nor did Jesus blow trumpets when He ascended from the Mount of Olives, yet the messengers said that He would come "in like manner." And it would seem that if He came as rain and as fire at the same time, the rain would put out the fire! :candle ......... :wink3

These are not contradictions, or as you say; "in competition with each other." Do you believe His PAROUSIA, His APOKALUPSIS, His EPIPHANEIA, His PHANAROO, His ERCHOMAI, and His HEKO are all speaking of the same singular, one-time event some time in the future?

Well, let's go through all of them.

1. PAROUSIA Parousia is formed a present participle of the verb "to be", with a prefix meaning "alongside." It means to be near or to be PRESENT. It is clear that it describes not an event, but a STATE or CONDITION, that involves duration, a period of time. It is "being present, presence." In each place where it is translated "coming" in the King James Bible, the Revised Version has "Greek: presence" in the margin. The Greek antonym for PAROUSIA is APOUSIA meaning "un-presence" or "absence," and is used in the passage quoted above from Philippians 2:12 wherein Paul says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence (PAROUSIA) only, but now much more in my absence (APOUSIA), work out your own salvation..." No translator would think of rendering APOUSIA as "going"; so neither should PAROUSIA be rendered as "coming." It is "presence" contrasted with "absence." The word simply means "present." Two thousand years ago the "coming" of the Son of God to this world took place in a split-second of time when He was conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary; but it was followed by His parousia or presence in this world for almost thirty-four years; many events took place during that time of His PRESENCE.

Nowhere does PAROUSIA mean "coming" or "coming again." The whole church world proclaims that the "second coming of Christ" is the HOPE OF THE CHURCH AND THE WORLD. It is not His coming that is the hope of the church, but IT IS HIS PRESENCE which is the hope of the church and the hope for the world. The PAROUSIA is a LIFE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD, not simply a flashing of Jesus across the skies sometime in the future, nor in 70 AD.

Next I'll give some examples of APOKALUPSIS and we'll see if all of these "comings" are indeed speaking of the same event.
 
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Really? Hmmm.


Your problems rest on your ignorance of these terms in the history of the church. This is the common problem which exists with every upstart belief system; it needs to 100% discard the teachings of the earliest church or its theories dissolve. Whether you are arguing for parousia on behalf of Sonny Coffman from the gnostic Lighthouse Library; or you are a Preterist arguing for a 70AD Second Coming; or an SDA arguing for the Sabbath; or a JW arguing for the Tetragrammaton; or a Pentecostal arguing for tongues; or a Calvinist arguing for tulip… every one of these upstart beliefs can only be argued in isolation from the original teachings of the 2nd and 3rd centuries. They need to completely ignore the history of teachings that were handed down from the Apostles. If this forced ignorance is not rigidly applied the entire belief is exposed as “another gospel.”

FYI - The parousia doctrine mentioned above by Osgiliath is a direct quote from the literature found at the Lighthouse Library. It was written by J Preston Eby if anyone is interested.

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/index1.htm

http://www.kingdombiblestudies.org/Looking/Looking9.htm

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/index.php?site=aboutus
 
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The "parousia" or "presence" of Christ is His coming in judgment upon Jerusalem. Erchomai and parousia are both pointing to the same event merely using different Greek words to describe it.

However, to lump preterism in with other cults is yet another dishonest characterization some have become known for in this thread. Jesus Himself pointed to His coming - His "presence" in the events that would surround the destruction of Jerusalem, as reported by Luke:

And He said to the disciples, "The days will come when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. "They will say to you, 'Look there! Look here!' Do not go away, and do not run after them. "For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day.

"But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

"And just as it happened in the days of Noah,so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.

"It was the same as happened in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all.

"It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

"On that day, the one who is on the housetop and whose goods are in the house must not go down to take them out; and likewise the one who is in the field must not turn back. (Matthew 24:15-22, Luke 21:20-24)

"Remember Lot's wife. "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. "I tell you, on that night there will be two in one bed; one will be taken and the other will be left."There will be two women grinding at the same place; one will be taken and the other will be left. ["Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other will be left."] And answering they *said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." Luke 17:22-37 (NASB)

The day of the coming of the Son of Man in His kingdom is just like the days of Noah and Lot: judgment upon those who killed the Son and the messengers the Son sent. All of the apostles make clear in their writings that this judgment - attended by indescribable carnage, death and destruction - would happen before their generation had passed; while some of them still lived!

This is the parousia, the erchomai, the apokalipsis, the revealing to which all the writers of the New Testament pointed and this all was fulfilled in 70 AD.

If preterism is a cult for believing Christ's words and those of His apostles, what does that make people who prefer "church history" and the doctrines of men over them? :chin
 
My comments in red...

Futurism
is a Christian eschatological view that interprets the Book of Revelation, the Book of Daniel, the Olivet discourse and the parable of the Sheep and the Goats as future events in a literal, physical, apocalyptic, and global context.[1] By comparison, other Christian eschatological views interpret these passages as past events in a literal, physical, and local context (Preterism and Historicism), or as present-day events in a non-literal and spiritual context (Idealism).

History

To counter the Protestant interpretation of historicism,[2] Roman Catholic Jesuit Francisco Ribera wrote a 500 page commentary on the Book of Revelation. This commentary established the futurist interpretation of Bible prophecy.[3]

The futurist view was first proposed by two Catholic writers, Manuel Lacunza and Francisco Ribera. Lacunza wrote under the pen name "Ben-Ezra", and his work was banned by the Catholic Church. It has grown in popularity in the 19th and 20th centuries, so that today it is probably most readily recognized. Books about the "rapture" by authors like Hal Lindsey, and the more recent Left Behind novels (by Jerry Jenkins and Tim LaHaye) and movies, have done much to popularize this school of thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futurism_(Christianity)

We should rightly wonder whether Futurism isn't the cult-like new kid on the block, given the penchant its adherents have for destroying the faith and lives of others with their false, hair-brained predictions.

For example, Harold Camping anyone?


After May 21 passed without the predicted incidents, Camping said he believed that a "spiritual" judgment had occurred on that date, and that the physical Rapture would occur on October 21, 2011, simultaneously with the final destruction of the universe by God.[13] Except for one press appearance on May 23, 2011, Camping largely avoided press interviews after May 21, particularly after he suffered a stroke in June.[14] October 21, 2011 passed without the predicted apocalypse, leading to comments that his ministry would be destroyed after the false prophecy.[15][16] Camping was reported to have retired from his position at Family Radio as of October 16, 2011,[17] only days before his last predicted date for the end of the world. However, his daughter later clarified that he had not retired outright, but was maintaining a role at Family Radio while working from home.[2] Camping admitted in a private interview that he no longer believed that anybody could know the time of the Rapture or the end of the world, in stark contrast to his previously staunch position on the subject.[17] In March 2012, he stated that his attempt to predict a date was "sinful"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping

When asked how will his followers, who took his word literally and gave away their entire life savings to Family Radio, survive till October 21, 2011, Camping responded they should learn how to cope and pray to God.

http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/art...vice-devastated-followers-cope-pray-video.htm

More here:

http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/art...alvary-church-milpitas-comfort-counseling.htm

And here:

If at First You Don’t Succeed, Spin It Off. Harold Camping sounds like he plagiarized Jehovah’s Witnesses. Jehovah Witnesses are a spin-off of the second Adventist which all came from the Millerite movement. American war of 1812 army captain William Miller is ground zero for Jehovah’s Witnesses. Yes,the “great disappointment†of Oct 22 1844 has never died out… it lives on in the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

The central CORE doctrine of the Watchtower,yes the reason the Watchtower came into existence was to declare Jesus second coming in 1914. When the prophecy (derived from William Miller of 1842) failed they said that he came “invisiblyâ€.

http://ringsidereport.com/?p=10873

The failed predictions and ruined lives produced by futurists are far more like those produced by JWs. Preterists don't kill themselves or others over false "end time" predictions.

Preterists have nothing to apologize for in their view of apostolic eschatology because preterism teaches Christ's words.

Futurism may be "orthodox" but it's also poison. It illustrates just how far the church has moved from the truth.

For what it's worth.
 
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And here's yet more background on futurism as displayed by the Millerites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millerism

Bible Student movement (Jehovah's Witnesses since 1931) had connections at the very beginning (in the early 2nd half of 19th century) with the Millerite movement. Russell later stated that I confess indebtedness to Adventists as well as to other denominations. In light of this, the Bible Student Movement was influenced by Adventists roots, but did not emerge from the Millerism movement.[44]

Seems futurists - not preterists - influenced the JWs.

The only people to whom Christ's words were future were the apostles. They were the true "futurists" and they saw the fulfillment of His words while some of them still lived. Futurism, as the church beyond the apostolic era knows and teaches it, is "junk theology."
 
By the way, Osgiliath, I agree with you that "parousia" means "presence", not "coming. But what you need to understand is that Christ's "presence" is inseparably tied to His "coming in His kingdom", and that His coming is inseparably tied to His judgment upon Jerusalem! This is made perfectly clear in Matthew 24:

Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” Matthew 24:1-2 (ESV)

His statement about the Temple being destroyed prompted them to ask this:

As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming [parousia/presence] and of the close of the age?” Matthew 24:3 (ESV)

In other words, they asked Him when will the temple be destroyed, and what will be the sign of your presence and the end of the age? Two questions not three, as some wrongly assert (the second question has a single subject - "sign"- and a compound object - "presence" and "end") with both questions dealing with the temple.

Christ then proceeds to tell them throughout the rest of the Olivet Discourse how His "coming" (erchomai) and "presence" (parousia) will happen.

"For just as the lightning comes [erchomai] from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming [parousia] of the Son of Man be. "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather. Matthew 24:27-28 (NASB)

This last sentence, "Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather." is the same thing Luke reports Him having said to the disciples in Luke 17:

"For just like the lightning, when it flashes out of one part of the sky, shines to the other part of the sky, so will the Son of Man be in His day. Luke 17:24 (NASB)

"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: Luke 17:26 (NASB)

Luke then tells us how the flood - God's judgment - destroyed all those not in the ark. He tells us how all those in Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by God's judgment. And Luke closes chapter 17 with the same words found in Matthew 24:28:

And answering they *said to Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said to them, "Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered." Luke 17:37 (NASB)

The sign of His presence on His throne was His coming in judgment upon Jerusalem, and Jeremiah uses the Hebrew word for "presence" to describe what this judgment means:

I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence [pāneh - face, presence] of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Jeremiah 4:26 (KJV)

The destruction of the cities of Judah prophesied in Jeremiah 4:26 was fulfilled by Babylon under Nebuchadnezzar.

The sign of the presence [parousia] of Christ on His throne and the end of the Mosaic age was Christ's coming [erchomai] in judgment upon Jerusalem, fulfilled in 70 AD by the armies of Rome.

One last thing:

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see [optanomai - "appear"] the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming [erchomai] in the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:63-64 (KJV)

A better translation of this might be:

"I say to you hereafter shall appear [optanomai] the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power and coming [erchomai] on the clouds of heaven."

"Coming on the clouds" is a phrase used in the Old Testament to describe God's coming in judgment upon a nation, as in Isaiah 19:1:

The oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt; The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence, And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them. Isaiah 19:1 (NASB)

Your source's "six words" all connote different things but all point to the same event: the presence [parousia] of Christ on His throne coming [erchomai] in judgment upon Jerusalem, just as the Lord did in the OT.

The sign of His presence and the end of the age appeared with His coming in judgment upon Jerusalem.
 
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2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.


We have simple rules here for keeping the peace. I would expect members to step out of the rules once in while, but most all the time?
A bit of self control is a good thing... Share your thoughts, stop trying to school the other guys. This forum is place where members can come together to discuss Scripture etc. I do hope we are not here to try and force our theology on another. Share and let God open our spiritual ears/hearts.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
:janitor
 
Futurist beliefs have been the only orthodox teaching on apocalyptic literature in the church for over a thousand years. All christians in the 2nd-3rd centuries believed in the future return of Christ. A heretic bishop in the 4th century, Marcellus, presented an alternative view (hyper-preterism) at the Council of Nicaea, but that view was cast out as heresy. Today hyper-Preterism is still heresy.
 
Partial-Preterism (IMO) is a misnomer. It shares the same name with a recognised heresy; whereas it shares the teachings of futurists, which is the expectation of Christ's return at the end of the age.

Partial Preterists acknowledged that some of the prophecies of apocalyptic literature has already been fulfilled in the past. This view has always been maintained by most futurists, but has now been given greater emphasis by partial preterists. Partial Preterism is a misnomer simply because it is actually futurism. Otherwise I am to be given the name partial preterist, as I also believe some apocalyptic literature was fulfilled at 70 AD, yet I hold, along with the rest of the Early Church Fathers, the teaching of a future return of Christ.

Why does a new belief system start up, like partial preterism, and give itself a name that is a misnomer? This is partly for political reasons, and partly for evangelical reasons. The 'evangelical demographic' is targeted toward hyper preterists. This is the audience they most want to influence and drag away from heresy. You can see from this agenda that the motives are altruistic; however it adds to the mounting confusion of Christian labels, and it distracts from the teachings that were given through the apostles, known to the 2nd and 3rd century Christians.

Anglican scholars have never been backward about coming forward. This view is largely rooted in Anglicanism. The political agendas of power elitism is what drives Anglicans to put forward bold new ideas. I believe it is all very unnessessary. Religously muddying waters is something that God will hold us accountable for; and it should rightly be considered sinful. That is my opinion anyway.

Tri
 
Marcellus, presented an alternative view (hyper-preterism) at the Council of Nicaea, but that view was cast out as heresy. Today hyper-Preterism is still heresy.
You've been told by Free (a Futurist) that's not true and why. I've told you that's not true and why. Your continued dishonest characterizations of preterism are shameful.
 
You've been told by Free (a Futurist) that's not true and why. I've told you that's not true and why. Your continued dishonest characterizations of preterism are shameful.

Free asked a question - I answered him. You have not shown a single thing other than that you follow the doctrines of a condemned heretic. Your doctrine was condemned at the First Ecumenical Council. Like other heresy's, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, we can point to a historical council when teachings akin to hyper-preterism were condemned as heresy. Jehovah's Witnesses refuse to acknowledge the concensus of all christians on doctrines as you do. The answer to Arius and Marcellus is the same to you, they needed to renounce their heresy and repent. It's simple.
 
I see we are not grown up enough to post nicely.

I will be deciding to just remove posts or closed the thread....
 
I am simply stating what has occured in history. This is church history and it will not simply disappear.

Should Christians no longer consider the Nicene council as representative of our faith?

Can I also point out that hyper-preterism has nothing to do with this thread, and we should not even be discussing it, as it has nothing to do with the OP.
 
I am simply stating what has occured in history. This is church history and it will not simply disappear.

Should Christians no longer consider the Nicene council as representative of our faith?

No. What you've done is draw false conclusions from the history you presented and you were shown by two different people why your conclusions were wrong. The fact that you A: cannot support your position from scripture, but have to keep appealing to councils and creeds is suspect, at best and B: you persist in characterizing preterism dishonestly.

What's patently clear from your posts is that you have an axe to grind with preterism and preterists and appear to be willing to write anything to discredit those with whom you disagree, even if it's untrue.

That's a shame.
 
You have hijacked this topic to spread your doctrines.
I don't speak "doctrine". I have supported everything I've written with Christ's words and those of His apostles. And you started this sub-thread with your characterization of preterism in your very first post, which I called you on.
 
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