Bible Study Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[PaulChristensen]

Today I have been part of a spirited discussion in the John MacArthur Facebook group concerning his quote that the Charismatic Movement is dangerous. Some of the commenters have accused Charismatics of being demon possessed.

I referred to 1 John by way of challenge to say that accusing brothers and sisters in Christ of being heretical, demon-possessed and therefore dangerous to the body of Christ, is expressing a form of hatred for Charismatics in general and therefore falling well below what the Lord requires of the standard of love toward our brothers and sisters in Christ that show evidence of being truly filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said that having even negative and resentful thoughts about others is equivalent to hating them. Of course, the anti-Charismatic folk on the Facebook page accused me of being hypocritical, even though I'm not even a Charismatic, but a Presbyterian in a Union Methodist/Presbyterian church.

So, I asked them how they defined "Charismatic", and so far they have not answered me.

I wonder, what is your definition of "Charismatic"? It would be interested to know what people thought of Charismatics and who they actually are.

 

[Quantrill]

Charismatic's basically see themselves as filled with the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit empowering them in the use of the gifts that He has given.

I doubt MacArthur holds to the gifts existing today.

Those who think Charismatics are demon possessed and a danger, don't really understand demon possession. You will have demons located in all denominations. The ones in a Baptist church, act like Baptist's. The ones in a Catholic church, act like Catholic's. etc. etc. Thus the ones in a Charismatic are really showy and outlandish.

Myself, I hold to the gifts of the Spirit today. But, you need spiritually mature leaders in those churches who are able and willing to control it. In other words, when one begins speaking in tongues and it is evident to all that it is purely fake or demonic, the leaders need to call them down and stop it. If they are willing to do that the congregation will know if you try to imitate, and it is not real, you will be told to be silent, giving those who really have the gift the opportunity to surface.

So, I think a Charismatic is one who holds to the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Today I have been part of a spirited discussion in the John MacArthur Facebook group concerning his quote that the Charismatic Movement is dangerous.

John MacArthur is a heretic and a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit.


He teaches the heretical doctrine of Calvinism, and claims anyone who is practicing the gifts of the Spirit is operating by the power of demons.


That would be the text book, biblical definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit; calling the Holy Spirit who is operating through someone, the devil.


Now, that being said, are their people in that movement who are deceived and following false teachers; yes, unfortunately their are.


Are there false signs and wonders and prophecies, taking place in that movement, yes unfortunately their are.


However, because there are some false signs and prophecies taking place, doesn’t mean true healings and miracles and prophecies don't exist. Quite they opposite, in fact.





JLB

 

[daninthelionsden]

I've visited a few Charismatic churches and I found there were basically two types. Some were lively and boisterous while the others were low key Spirit filled. I liked the more low key. The loud very overt "Holy Roller" type of church is just not for me. I believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and believe miracles happen every day. I really liked the quieter Spirit filled services.

 

[jasonc]

John MacArthur is a heretic and a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit.


He teaches the heretical doctrine of Calvinism, and claims anyone who is practicing the gifts of the Spirit is operating by the power of demons.


That would be the text book, biblical definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit; calling the Holy Spirit who is operating through someone, the devil.


Now, that being said, are their people in that movement who are deceived and following false teachers; yes, unfortunately their are.


Are there false signs and wonders and prophecies, taking place in that movement, yes unfortunately their are.


However, because there are some false signs and prophecies taking place, doesn’t mean true healings and miracles and prophecies don't exist. Quite they opposite, in fact.





JLB

I,think he takes a bit far but don't assume that our members who post here and are admins or staff don't agree with him.
I personally know two former admin that did .
the christian and missionary alliance and calvary chapel don't teach open ,and uninterpation of tongues in normal service ,there are one news
churches that teach Jesus was a created being ,as he didn't exist until God decided to visit earth . these deny,the trinity .

a.w.tozer didn't believe in the modern charismatic movement in azure street and he walked away from,it.

 

[jasonc]

white western churches are quiet ,try worshipping in black or Hispanic ones ,those will be loud ,doesn't mean they are charismatic but expressive ,add charismatic its interesting .my observation and also from,a Jamaican pastor who retired as an army chaplaib who is ordained out of Africa .he is Anglican ,they can be charismatic bit if the five fold ministry is fully here ,where are the apostles ?

we do ha've charismatic modern day apostles who are dominionist and or some aren't and also have female equivalent .

 

[JLB]

but don't assume that our members who post here and are admins or staff don't agree with him.

I certainly don’t assume that.

 

[JLB]

we do ha've charismatic modern day apostles who are dominionist and or some aren't and also have female equivalent .

I definitely believe we have Apostles and Prophets today, as the scriptures teach we do and will continue to have, until we all come to the unity of the faith.


Are their a lot of folks that claim to be Apostles?

Yes.


Does that mean they are Apostles?

No.

 

[jasonc]

I definitely believe we have Apostles and Prophets today, as the scriptures teach we do and will continue to have, until we all come to the unity of the faith.


Are their a lot of folks that claim to be Apostles?

Yes.


Does that mean they are Apostles?

No.

Thats the problem .when you go there why not add to the bible .the bible doesnt say what is canon.

Its doesnt . Who verifies that the apostle is called ?

Other apostles ?

See the 7 mountain heresy .this moderm apostolics teach perfect unity and each person can be his own apostle

 

[PaulChristensen]

John MacArthur is a heretic and a blasphemer of the Holy Spirit.


He teaches the heretical doctrine of Calvinism, and claims anyone who is practicing the gifts of the Spirit is operating by the power of demons.


That would be the text book, biblical definition of blaspheming the Holy Spirit; calling the Holy Spirit who is operating through someone, the devil.


Now, that being said, are their people in that movement who are deceived and following false teachers; yes, unfortunately their are.


Are there false signs and wonders and prophecies, taking place in that movement, yes unfortunately their are.


However, because there are some false signs and prophecies taking place, doesn’t mean true healings and miracles and prophecies don't exist. Quite they opposite, in fact.





JLB

I am starting to read Michael Brown's "Authentic Fire". Very interesting and a good answer to John MacArthur's exaggerated claims about the Charismatic movement. However, there are many very positive points about MacArthur's ministry in that he does teach the true Gospel. So, my view is that the treasure is in earthen vessels. If we are not careful we could end up doing the same to him as he is doing to Charismatics.

I think there are some lunatic fringe Charismatic churches and groups that are bringing the movement into disrepute, but that's not surprising seeing that the devil will try to corrupt any effective move of the Holy Spirit, because he is threatened by any movement that wins souls for Christ and demonstrates the power of God.

I have just finished watching a movie of "Pilgrims Progress", and it shows clearly how the devil is always there to trip up Christian and tempt him to get on the wrong path, and it is only by the grace of God that he got there in the end.

So, with any movement, Charismatic, Calvinist, Arminian, we need to pick the meat from the bones. No one is perfect, because we often know things through seeing them through the wrong end of the telescope (seeing through a glass darkly).

This is where a forum like this is really valuable, because we all have different views of the Gospel and the Christian walk and through our discussions, we learn from each other, and are having to think more deeply about what we believe and practice.

I think I have more fun jousting with those who don't agree with me, more than the ones who do! And sometimes I have to concede that they are correct and I am mistaken.

 

[JLB]

However, there are many very positive points about MacArthur's ministry in that he does teach the true Gospel.

He teaches the Gospel of Calvinism, and doesn’t believe in the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

He teaches that those who have the baptism with the Spirit and it’s gifts are operating by the devil.

He denies the power of the Holy Spirit is for today and says that ceased with the last apostle.

How can you say he teaches the true Gospel?


But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. 2 Timothy 3:1-5




JLB

 

[JLB]

So, my view is that the treasure is in earthen vessels. If we are not careful we could end up doing the same to him as he is doing to Charismatics.

I would strongly urge you to go by what the Holy Spirit‘s view is through those that He inspired to write the scriptures.


It is the scriptures that teach us the doctrine of Christ.


Following other men who teach against what the scriptures teach, against what Christ taught is dangerous. Lets read and study for ourselves and compare what we are taught in Churches with the Bible and seek God for His wisdom and understanding that comes by His Spirit.


We should love all men, but not take everything they say as the “truth” until we verify it by the word of God.


Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1



Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:1


The baptism with the Spirit is the Promise of the Father and is for all Christians. It is a different baptism than baptism in water.


Please don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.




JLB

 

[PaulChristensen]

He teaches the Gospel of Calvinism, and doesn’t believe in the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

He teaches that those who have the baptism with the Spirit and it’s gifts are operating by the devil.

He denies the power of the Holy Spirit is for today and says that ceased with the last apostle.

How can you say he teaches the true Gospel?


But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power. 2 Timothy 3:1-5




JLB

It is true that MacArthur exaggerates in his accusations of the Charismatic movement. But the Gospel consists of Jesus dying on the Cross and shedding His blood for our sins and finishing God's plan of salvation. One does not have to believe in the gifts of the Spirit in order to be saved, although I doubt whether he would be of much real use to the body of Christ, having no spiritual tools to work with.

By the way, I have read Calvin's commentary on John's Gospel and 1 John, and haven't found anything that conflicts with Scripture in it. I guess there is a difference between Calvin himself and Calvinism. In his commentary on 1 Corinthians, he never says that tongues is of the devil. He describes what he would do if he ever spoke in tongues, and it is exactly the same as what Charismatics believe. It is just that he was a man of his time who believed that the gifts had ceased, but didn't think that it was God who made them cease. The problem is that ultra Calvinists have taken his words and adapted them for their own purpose.

It is basically the same as some Charismatics believing and practising lunatic fringe stuff having adapted the Charismatic truth to suit their own purposes. So just because someone calls themself a Calvinist does not mean they are true to what Calvin actually taught.

 

[Adradtos275]

Today I have been part of a spirited discussion in the John MacArthur Facebook group concerning his quote that the Charismatic Movement is dangerous. Some of the commenters have accused Charismatics of being demon possessed.

I referred to 1 John by way of challenge to say that accusing brothers and sisters in Christ of being heretical, demon-possessed and therefore dangerous to the body of Christ, is expressing a form of hatred for Charismatics in general and therefore falling well below what the Lord requires of the standard of love toward our brothers and sisters in Christ that show evidence of being truly filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said that having even negative and resentful thoughts about others is equivalent to hating them. Of course, the anti-Charismatic folk on the Facebook page accused me of being hypocritical, even though I'm not even a Charismatic, but a Presbyterian in a Union Methodist/Presbyterian church.

So, I asked them how they defined "Charismatic", and so far they have not answered me.

I wonder, what is your definition of "Charismatic"? It would be interested to know what people thought of Charismatics and who they actually are.

Id like to add my opinion as one used to be charismatic and my father and grandma and ant were and great uncle.
So what the MacArthur crowd is saying is bologna total rubbish i wont speak about or against individual experiences thats between them and God and only they and God know the genuineness of their experiences ..there are beliefs having nothing to do with what the bible teaches that go on in individual churches having to do with word of faith prosperity and having the pastor to rule over you that kind of nonsense is the problem..

 

[PaulChristensen]

Id like to add my opinion as one used to be charismatic and my father and grandma and ant were and great uncle.
So what the MacArthur crowd is saying is bologna total rubbish i wont speak about or against individual experiences thats between them and God and only they and God know the genuineness of their experiences ..there are beliefs having nothing to do with what the bible teaches that go on in individual churches having to do with word of faith prosperity and having the pastor to rule over you that kind of nonsense is the problem..

What is shown on TV that purports to be "charismatic" is nothing of the sort. It is pseudo-christian and a perversion of the true Gospel and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. These people don't know what spirit they are off, because they are definitely not of the Holy Spirit in what they teach and do.

True Charismatics are soundly based in the Gospel which concentrates on the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit as listed in 1 Corinthians 12. They are the ones who loudly speak against the lunatic fringe that purports on TV that they are the mainstream Charismatics.

Most genuine Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors teach their congregations to avoid the excesses and false doctrine that is taught by the TV Prosperity and Health preachers.

 

[Adradtos275]

What is shown on TV that purports to be "charismatic" is nothing of the sort. It is pseudo-christian and a perversion of the true Gospel and the ministry of the Holy Spirit. These people don't know what spirit they are off, because they are definitely not of the Holy Spirit in what they teach and do.

True Charismatics are soundly based in the Gospel which concentrates on the finished work of Christ on the Cross, and the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit as listed in 1 Corinthians 12. They are the ones who loudly speak against the lunatic fringe that purports on TV that they are the mainstream Charismatics.

Most genuine Pentecostal and Charismatic pastors teach their congregations to avoid the excesses and false doctrine that is taught by the TV Prosperity and Health preachers.

I was a member of two Pentecostal churches as well as have a family history so i understand the positions of the non tv churches but without attempting to start a fight with you tjere are plenty of lunatics in the down home churches ..the reason it is so prevalent in Pentecostal churches is that pastors have no earthly authority to answer to and the people are convinced that he or she actually speaks for God a blasphemy and absurdity

 

[Christ_empowered]

-shrug- I kinda like MacArthur. I mean...ok, I appreciate his Christian antipsychiatry stance. Have you read his sermons on psychology and psychiatry? take it from someone stuck with a label of "Schizophrenia" who also survived 'treatment (by God's grace, clearly) and is now...trying to find a way out of the mental health industry, somehow, if it is His will...

more (genuine) Christians need to speak out against the mental health industry. it does bother me, more than a little bit, that he seems to have been sucked into the swirling vortex of Nouethic counseling, or whatever that was called, for a season. apparently a congregant killed himself, and there was a lawsuit? sad. of course, people kill themselves in mental hospitals, especially state hospitals, and nobody cares. true story.

aside from that...I'm still leaning Calvinist. Not that I have anything against Pentecostals, nor do I think the average Calvinist is a "better Christian" or anything, its just...

i dunno. I'm more inclined to interpret Scripture as indicating the guaranteed salvation of the Elect vs the possible, but never realized, salvation of every human being on earth. Traditionally, I think Arminianism included an element of divine foreknowledge, which I think one still (rarely) finds in Pentecostals, more because they do strive to approach -the whole Bible- , which I've always respected...

but, at the end of the day, it does seem that the work a day Pentecostal is inclined to believe that salvation is a decision that is ultimately up to the individual ("make a decision for Christ"), whereas a work a day Calvinist is far more inclined to believe that salvation is a work of God, and sanctification is a mix of the believers' works and the Holy Ghost's indwelling and...

on and on. I'm not one to point at any other believer and say 'heretic!,' but then again...more and more, I'm beginning to suspect I simply will not be able to 'do church,' not now, possibly not for a while to come, yet. long story...

not to go all psychobabble and such on this, but I do think an individual's salvation 'experience' affects which way one tends to interpret Scripture, or at least...mine does, and has, since day 1. His work in my life since then has (re)affirmed my faith in Jesus Christ (1st and foremost), and also makes me inclined to think + believe that salvation is God's doing, not mine. but...obviously...personally, I'm trying to focus more on gratitude for being saved, of course.

 

[daninthelionsden]

-shrug- I kinda like MacArthur. I mean...ok, I appreciate his Christian antipsychiatry stance. Have you read his sermons on psychology and psychiatry? take it from someone stuck with a label of "Schizophrenia" who also survived 'treatment (by God's grace, clearly) and is now...trying to find a way out of the mental health industry, somehow, if it is His will...

more (genuine) Christians need to speak out against the mental health industry. it does bother me, more than a little bit, that he seems to have been sucked into the swirling vortex of Nouethic counseling, or whatever that was called, for a season. apparently a congregant killed himself, and there was a lawsuit? sad. of course, people kill themselves in mental hospitals, especially state hospitals, and nobody cares. true story.

aside from that...I'm still leaning Calvinist. Not that I have anything against Pentecostals, nor do I think the average Calvinist is a "better Christian" or anything, its just...

i dunno. I'm more inclined to interpret Scripture as indicating the guaranteed salvation of the Elect vs the possible, but never realized, salvation of every human being on earth. Traditionally, I think Arminianism included an element of divine foreknowledge, which I think one still (rarely) finds in Pentecostals, more because they do strive to approach -the whole Bible- , which I've always respected...

but, at the end of the day, it does seem that the work a day Pentecostal is inclined to believe that salvation is a decision that is ultimately up to the individual ("make a decision for Christ"), whereas a work a day Calvinist is far more inclined to believe that salvation is a work of God, and sanctification is a mix of the believers' works and the Holy Ghost's indwelling and...

on and on. I'm not one to point at any other believer and say 'heretic!,' but then again...more and more, I'm beginning to suspect I simply will not be able to 'do church,' not now, possibly not for a while to come, yet. long story...

not to go all psychobabble and such on this, but I do think an individual's salvation 'experience' affects which way one tends to interpret Scripture, or at least...mine does, and has, since day 1. His work in my life since then has (re)affirmed my faith in Jesus Christ (1st and foremost), and also makes me inclined to think + believe that salvation is God's doing, not mine. but...obviously...personally, I'm trying to focus more on gratitude for being saved, of course.

While I try my best not to cherry pick Bible verses to validate/invalidate a doctrine, I do tend to cherry pick any given theology. If one guy makes a good point I note that and if someone makes another good point I note that as well. I try only to use the Bible.

 

[PaulChristensen]

I was a member of two Pentecostal churches as well as have a family history so i understand the positions of the non tv churches but without attempting to start a fight with you tjere are plenty of lunatics in the down home churches ..the reason it is so prevalent in Pentecostal churches is that pastors have no earthly authority to answer to and the people are convinced that he or she actually speaks for God a blasphemy and absurdity

The full stop key is two keys to the left of your right hand shift key. (I am a friend. )

I am fully aware that there is the lunatic fringe in Pentecostal churches just like there are crazy people in every church. But all the good, sound people in the congregation know who they are and they safely ignore them. When Paul spoke to the Corinthian church, he judged them on the sound godly people in it, even though there were many who caused issues in that church. When you were in a Pentecostal meeting where the lunatics were active, did you look at what the Pastor and the elders were doing? Were they participating in the lunacy, or were they doing what they could to stop it?

 

[Adradtos275]

The full stop key is two keys to the left of your right hand shift key. (I am a friend. )

I am fully aware that there is the lunatic fringe in Pentecostal churches just like there are crazy people in every church. But all the good, sound people in the congregation know who they are and they safely ignore them. When Paul spoke to the Corinthian church, he judged them on the sound godly people in it, even though there were many who caused issues in that church. When you were in a Pentecostal meeting where the lunatics were active, did you look at what the Pastor and the elders were doing? Were they participating in the lunacy, or were they doing what they could to stop it?

I dont want to misunderstand you if you have a complaint about how i am writing feel free to message me otherwise dont correct me in that way in public its rude and i haven't been rude to you thanks .