Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is the Law of God dead? And if yes, how?

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
Hi guys, greetings and blessings to all.
I wish to ask the vital question Is God’s Law dead/redundant now? I will rephrase

Is the Law now irrelevant to the Christian, now that he/she is under “ grace” (a word Jesus never uttered or taught)?

Before you answer, please take the following into consideration because God is very sensitive about His eternal, perennial, and imperishable Law. We must remember what happened to the Jews who chose to disobey the Law and commandments of God written by His own finger and handed over to Israelites via Moses ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and this very Law which was written by Father Gods finger was placed on the 2 tablets of MIND and HEARTS of every human ( Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16)
The disobedience of Law led to widespread devastation of the Israelites and the destruction and plunder of God’s own temple. The havoc was wrought by Father God due to the disobedience/ sin of the Israelites – to the extent that they had to eat their own flesh and flesh of each other and the flesh of their children. Jeremiah 19:7-10, Deuteronomy 28:52-57 etc.
Father God's given Law is Eternal, Perennial, magnificent says teh Bible ( Psalms 119, psalms 19:9-11, Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16 etc.)

Yet Paul says the eternal, imperishable Law of God lies written on human hearts and minds by none other than the Finger of Father God Himself "was nailed to the cross" ( check Colossians 2:14). I consider this a most audacious attack on the eternal Law of God ( which lies etched on our minds and hearts at this very moment) , and we can imagine the utter Fury of Father God for destroying/crucifying His eternal, imperishable Law.

Jesus warns ( I paraphrase) the whole universe can crash burn and disappear -- but the Law of God cannot simply go. Not even the least bit! ( Matthew 5:17-18) and repeats again in Luke 16:17 for good measure. Did you know friends nobody in the Universe dare touch Gods eternal imperishable Law which is there forever and ever? Not even the Son , our Lord Jesus can touch it and He didn’t. The obedient-to-death Son upheld the Law and warned it just can never go. ( although He did teach us HOW to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets –Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10:25-28—unfortunately this precious/vital teaching of Christ went disregarded/ ignored by an overwhelming majority of the Churches

The psalmist calls God’s Law Eternal, Just , Pure ( Psalm 19:9-11) lifegiving ( Psalm 19:7 and Psalm 119:93) and goes on to state “Blessed is the one whose delight is in the Law of the LORD, and on His law, they meditate day and night ( Psalms1:1-2)

Finally, David says this about the NATURE and structure of Law:

Psalm 119:44

I will always obey Your law, forever and ever



Psalm 119:160

The sum of Your word is truth [the full meaning of all Your precepts], And every one of Your righteous ordinances endures forever.

Unfortunately, the Forever/ eternal/magnificent/life-giving Law of God as declared by father God, the Son of God Christ Jesus, and David the man after God’s heart, now stands crucified to the cross, lying dead to the Christian, for he ( the Christian) has now been saved by “Grace”—a word ( I repeat ) Jesus never taught or even uttered from His mouth. I believe the Father God is in great fury at this very minute for His Law was destroyed by one man and the entire Churches not only believed this but taught it consistently ( and continue to teach even today)
For where there is no Law there is (literally) LAWLESSNESS and Jesus our Lord condemned such people who rejected God’s Law with the following words in Matthew 7:23 :
"But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ ( NLT)

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ ( Matthew 7:23)

In light of this due diligence placed above for your prudent consideration, I respectfully ask fellow brothers and sisters :

IS THE LAW OF GOD DEAD OR NOT?

If it’s indeed dead/gone/ irrelevant please provide verses which say so – other than Paul’s who I believed taught in DIRECT contradiction to above Verses of Father God, Christ the Son, and the Psalmist ( apart from other OT / NT writers ) I will appreciate scriptural references and edification rather than personal attacks. I will appreciate being explained how God’s Perennial Law stands dead now. And even if we elect to use Paul's words to do away with the Law of God, is it prudent on our part to place Paul's words above God and the Son and Psalmist's warnings about the Law? Especially since Jesus cautioned us in John 13:16 with these words:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." Paul's ( or anyone else's, save God's ) words/doctrine can never supersede/ exceed Jesus' is what I believe He is saying

Many thanks in advance
Look forward /\
A brother in Christ, and a humble servant of our Lord
---Raj
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,268
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Hi guys, greetings and blessings to all.
I wish to ask the vital question Is God’s Law dead/redundant now? I will rephrase

Is the Law now irrelevant to the Christian, now that he/she is under “ grace” (a word Jesus never uttered or taught)?

Before you answer, please take the following into consideration because God is very sensitive about His eternal, perennial, and imperishable Law. We must remember what happened to the Jews who chose to disobey the Law and commandments of God written by His own finger and handed over to Israelites via Moses ( Deuteronomy 9:10) and this very Law which was written by Father Gods finger was placed on the 2 tablets of MIND and HEARTS of every human ( Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16)
The disobedience of Law led to widespread devastation of the Israelites and the destruction and plunder of God’s own temple. The havoc was wrought by Father God due to the disobedience/ sin of the Israelites – to the extent that they had to eat their own flesh and flesh of each other and the flesh of their children. Jeremiah 19:7-10, Deuteronomy 28:52-57 etc.
Father God's given Law is Eternal, Perennial, magnificent says teh Bible ( Psalms 119, psalms 19:9-11, Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17, Jeremiah 31:33, Hebrews 10:16 etc.)

Yet Paul says the eternal, imperishable Law of God lies written on human hearts and minds by none other than the Finger of Father God Himself "was nailed to the cross" ( check Colossians 2:14). I consider this a most audacious attack on the eternal Law of God ( which lies etched on our minds and hearts at this very moment) , and we can imagine the utter Fury of Father God for destroying/crucifying His eternal, imperishable Law.

Jesus warns ( I paraphrase) the whole universe can crash burn and disappear -- but the Law of God cannot simply go. Not even the least bit! ( Matthew 5:17-18) and repeats again in Luke 16:17 for good measure. Did you know friends nobody in the Universe dare touch Gods eternal imperishable Law which is there forever and ever? Not even the Son , our Lord Jesus can touch it and He didn’t. The obedient-to-death Son upheld the Law and warned it just can never go. ( although He did teach us HOW to obey the entire Law and the teachings of the Prophets –Matthew 22:37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10:25-28—unfortunately this precious/vital teaching of Christ went disregarded/ ignored by an overwhelming majority of the Churches

The psalmist calls God’s Law Eternal, Just , Pure ( Psalm 19:9-11) lifegiving ( Psalm 19:7 and Psalm 119:93) and goes on to state “Blessed is the one whose delight is in the Law of the LORD, and on His law, they meditate day and night ( Psalms1:1-2)

Finally, David says this about the NATURE and structure of Law:

Psalm 119:44

I will always obey Your law, forever and ever



Psalm 119:160

The sum of Your word is truth [the full meaning of all Your precepts], And every one of Your righteous ordinances endures forever.

Unfortunately, the Forever/ eternal/magnificent/life-giving Law of God as declared by father God, the Son of God Christ Jesus, and David the man after God’s heart, now stands crucified to the cross, lying dead to the Christian, for he ( the Christian) has now been saved by “Grace”—a word ( I repeat ) Jesus never taught or even uttered from His mouth. I believe the Father God is in great fury at this very minute for His Law was destroyed by one man and the entire Churches not only believed this but taught it consistently ( and continue to teach even today)
For where there is no Law there is (literally) LAWLESSNESS and Jesus our Lord condemned such people who rejected God’s Law with the following words in Matthew 7:23 :
"But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ ( NLT)

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ ( Matthew 7:23)

In light of this due diligence placed above for your prudent consideration, I respectfully ask fellow brothers and sisters :

IS THE LAW OF GOD DEAD OR NOT?

If it’s indeed dead/gone/ irrelevant please provide verses which say so – other than Paul’s who I believed taught in DIRECT contradiction to above Verses of Father God, Christ the Son, and the Psalmist ( apart from other OT / NT writers ) I will appreciate scriptural references and edification rather than personal attacks. I will appreciate being explained how God’s Perennial Law stands dead now. And even if we elect to use Paul's words to do away with the Law of God, is it prudent on our part to place Paul's words above God and the Son and Psalmist's warnings about the Law? Especially since Jesus cautioned us in John 13:16 with these words:
"Truly, truly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him." Paul's ( or anyone else's, save God's ) words/doctrine can never supersede/ exceed Jesus' is what I believe He is saying

Many thanks in advance
Look forward /\
A brother in Christ, and a humble servant of our Lord
---Raj
The law is alive and well.
But the Mosaic Law is no longer in force.
The law that lives is this...love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
What is no longer in force is dietary restrictions, temple worship, priesthood, feast keeping, etc.
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
The law is alive and well.
But the Mosaic Law is no longer in force.
The law that lives is this...love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
What is no longer in force is dietary restrictions, temple worship, priesthood, feast keeping, etc.
Agreed /\. I wish the Churches had taught what you just wrote here brother/ sister-- the entire obedience requirement of the Law was met through WORKS of loving-compassion on the day of judgment ( Matthew 25:31-46). Exactly what Jesus taught in Matthew 5:17-18, Matthew 7:12. But they NEVER taught what you just wrote and therefore must stand guilty in front of Father God and the Son for killing God's Law. The Lord taught us that Matthew 5:17-18 and Matthew 7:12 covers the obedience requirement ENTIRE Law and TEACHINGS of the Prophets ( Moses' law therefore included). Jesus said that--- He knew the deception what was coming :)
EVERY requirement is met when we turn away from sin and turn to ACTS ( works) of Loving-kindness
because God's judgment will be terrifying for all those who destroyed His eternal law and replaced it with "Grace" ( rather than acts of loving compassion). Church teachers who taught this ( God's Law is dead) will be the first in line to bear the brunt of the judgment, it appears.
Wish they had paid heed to what Jesus was teaching. That's also the reason John the Apostle warned us in 1 John 4:8 "Whoever does not learn to love does not know God, for God IS Love"
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
The law is alive and well.
But the Mosaic Law is no longer in force.
The law that lives is this...love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
What is no longer in force is dietary restrictions, temple worship, priesthood, feast keeping, etc.
I have a solution friends to come out of the predicament we all are in. We could consider it.
While reading through the Bible I found the case of Manasseh the wicked King of Judah ( and in the parable of the Prodigal son) the Lord put a thought in me. It's up to you friends and the elders of this website ( from whom I have learned much) to consider it. I believe we were told these stories in Bible -- not only to warn us about sin and to educate us about the solutions to sins. Even major ones.
I am reproducing the story of Manasseh from gotquestions.org --to whom I express my gratitude and acknowledgment.
I believe to overcome this great sin of destroying God's Law and replacing it with Grace -- this is the way to go. We first need to acknowledge our sin collectively/ corporately as the Church ( no forgiveness without acknowledgment ) and then REPENT of it as Manasseh did of his great sin-- and the Prodigal son as well.
Our hope is the Lord God who we know has both --GREAT COMPASSION and GREAT WRATH .
He forgave Manasseh after he did all the evil things ---just because he acknowledged and repented of his sins.
I'm reproducing the story here below. It's just my view/thought. Nobody can speak for the Lord finally. But I believe this is the best bet and in line with what the Father and Son taught--- Acknowledgment and Repentance. I leave it to the elders of this forum what they wish to do with the predicament we are in. And that's of course AFTER we are on the same page and agreed that we the church were deceived into believing God's Law is dead-- and that we are under Grace. Until that time we can exchange the posts. But I believe it's time of repentance rather than justifying our positions-- which won't cut much slack on the day of judgment anyways. I'm not here to win an argument brothers and sisters, but try to COLLECTIVELY take responsibility and find a Biblical solution. Here is the solution I offer us all



https://www.gotquestions.org/King-Manasseh.html



The story of King Manasseh is told in 2 Kings 21:1–18 and 2 Chronicles 32:33–33:20, and he is also mentioned briefly in Jeremiah 15:4. Manasseh was king of the southern kingdom of Judah and the son of the godly king Hezekiah. Hezekiah had undertaken reforms in Judah to rid the land of idolatry. Manasseh, a wicked king, reversed these reforms and did much worse. The first five verses of 2 Kings 21 are a frank and stunning account of Manasseh’s apostasy:

“Manasseh was twelve years old when he became king, and he reigned in Jerusalem fifty-five years. . . . He did evil in the eyes of the Lord, following the detestable practices of the nations the Lord had driven out before the Israelites. He rebuilt the high places his father Hezekiah had destroyed; he also erected altars to Baal and made an Asherah pole, as Ahab king of Israel had done. He bowed down to all the starry hosts and worshiped them. He built altars in the temple of the Lord, of which the Lord had said, ‘In Jerusalem I will put my Name.’ In the two courts of the temple of the Lord, he built altars to all the starry hosts. He sacrificed his own son in the fire, practiced divination, sought omens, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger.” Although we are not given the specifics, Manasseh was also a treacherous king, killing innocent people: “Manasseh also shed so much innocent blood that he filled Jerusalem from end to end” (2 Kings 21:16). He was pronounced by God to be more wicked than the Amorites who had lived in Canaan before they were displaced by Israel in an act of God’s judgment (2 Kings 21:11; see also 2 Chronicles 33:9).

Not only did Manasseh sin personally, but as king he led Judah in forsaking the LORD and worshiping idols. Such was the extent of their sin that God declared He would wipe out Jerusalem as He had the northern kingdom of Israel (2 Kings 21:13–15). Jeremiah 15:4 notes that it was the sin of Judah, initiated by Manasseh, that brought the judgment that Jeremiah proclaimed (the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple and the exile of the people). According to Jewish tradition, it was King Manasseh who murdered the prophet Isaiah.

Second Chronicles 33 adds more information not recorded in 2 Kings. God reached out to Manasseh and the people (presumably through prophets), but they would not listen. So God sent the Assyrians who captured Manasseh and took him away to exile (2 Chronicles 33:11). While in exile, “In his distress he sought the favor of the Lord his God and humbled himself greatly before the God of his ancestors. And when he prayed to him, the Lord was moved by his entreaty ( pleading) and listened to his plea; so he brought him back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the Lord is God” (2 Chronicles 33:12–13). The apocryphal book the “Prayer of Manasseh” claims to record Manasseh’s prayer of repentance, but it is highly unlikely that the contents of the Prayer of Manasseh accurately represent Manasseh’s prayer.

The repentant Manasseh was restored to his kingdom and started to rebuild Judah militarily (2 Chronicles 33:14), and he also began to institute religious reforms. “He got rid of the foreign gods and removed the image from the temple of the Lord, as well as all the altars he had built on the temple hill and in Jerusalem; and he threw them out of the city. Then he restored the altar of the Lord and sacrificed fellowship offerings and thank offerings on it, and told Judah to serve the Lord, the God of Israel” (2 Chronicles 33:15–16).

Even though Manasseh had a personal conversion, he was never able to lead Judah out of the sin that he had previously led them into. They did not follow him in his reforms. The people continued in their idolatry (2 Chronicles 33:17), and, when Manasseh died, his son Amon “did evil in the eyes of the Lord, as his father Manasseh had done. Amon worshiped and offered sacrifices to all the idols Manasseh had made. But unlike his father Manasseh, he did not humble himself before the Lord” (2 Chronicles 33:22–23).

Manasseh is a tragic figure in Scripture. Although he repented of his sin, he was unable to undo the damage he had done to the nation or to his own son who followed him. Manasseh demonstrates that, while any sin may be forgiven when we repent, forgiveness does not necessarily remove the natural consequences that flow from disobedience
 

jaybo

Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,051
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
The whole question about the OT law as it applies to Christians -- believers in God who have been born of the Spirit -- is clearly answered in Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:15-16 (NIV), We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19, For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God.

And so on throughout the epistle.
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
The whole question about the OT law as it applies to Christians -- believers in God who have been born of the Spirit -- is clearly answered in Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:15-16 (NIV), We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19, For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God.

And so on throughout the epistle.
Why did Jesus point towards the Law when two different people ask him what is required to be saved . The two were Rich man and Christ encounter , and the Expert in Law in Luke 10 : 25-28. On both occasions Jesus pointed at the obedience of Law to be saved. Why?
Nobody can die to the eternal Law of God without getting punished . Law is not dead. It is vibrant and alive and forever and ever . Check my OP
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,268
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
The whole question about the OT law as it applies to Christians -- believers in God who have been born of the Spirit -- is clearly answered in Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Galatians 2:15-16 (NIV), We are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners, yet we know that no one is justified by the works of the law but by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by the faithfulness of Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

Galatians 2:19, For through the law I died to the law so that I may live to God.

And so on throughout the epistle.
Yes.
We are no longer being judged for keeping points of the Mosaic Law, but by love for God and neighbor.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,268
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
Why did Jesus point towards the Law when two different people ask him what is required to be saved . The two were Rich man and Christ encounter , and the Expert in Law in Luke 10 : 25-28. On both occasions Jesus pointed at the obedience of Law to be saved. Why?
Nobody can die to the eternal Law of God without getting punished . Law is not dead. It is vibrant and alive and forever and ever . Check my OP
You should make it clear which law you are referring to...the Law of Moses OR the law of Christ/love.
Though some point are identical in both, a lot of differences exist.
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
You should make it clear which law you are referring to...the Law of Moses OR the law of Christ/love.
Though some point are identical in both, a lot of differences exist.
This is a very good question and I thank you very much for asking it :nod

All obedience of Law given by Father God and written by His finger on human mind and heart is met ( it's entire obedience requirement ) through practicing loving kindness .This Jesus Christ our Lord 🙏 and Master revealed in Matthew 22: 37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10: 25-28 . It is when we turn away from sin ( through repentance ) and turn TO love , practicing loving kindness , till it becomes a second nature to us, we fulfill the entire demand of the Law and honor the teachings of the Prophets as Jesus taught . The grace emanating from the Cross of Christ is imputed ( John 14:15, Matthew 25:31-46) , all our sins are forgiven ( Proverbs 10:12, 1 Peter 4:8), and we are now good with the Father and Son, honoring commands of both 🙏✝️

That's why John cautioned us in 1 John 4: 8, whoever does not Love does not know God because God IS Love. There is a deep connection between pure, unconditional, Godly love and Salvation friends. That's what Christ was repeatedly teaching. That's also the metric He used on the day of judgement ( Matthew 25:31-46). Jesus used the Criterion that He taught...Love . Acts of Loving--kindness.
It all adds up beautifully .... Because He is Love ( John 10:30)
Apostle John knew all this and therefore he is imploring us with the following words, which if practiced will lead to sure-shot salvation in my humble opinion based on all these incredible teachings of the Christ.
2 John 1:6 - "And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, Christ's command is that you walk in love."
This is the gospel of salvation , I get from the Word of God and this is the gospel I teach brothers and sisters . It all starts with Faith in Christ as Lord and entails in Love . Pure and Godly ❤️🙏✝️
 

jaybo

Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,051
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Why did Jesus point towards the Law when two different people ask him what is required to be saved . The two were Rich man and Christ encounter , and the Expert in Law in Luke 10 : 25-28. On both occasions Jesus pointed at the obedience of Law to be saved. Why?
Nobody can die to the eternal Law of God without getting punished . Law is not dead. It is vibrant and alive and forever and ever . Check my OP
And then Jesus was crucified and paid the price for all violations of the OT law. If you're one of God's people you're either under grace -- as a Christian -- or under OT law -- as a Jew. Those of us who are born of the Spirit are no longer under the law, otherwise Christ's sacrifice means nothing.

Read Paul's epistle to the Galatians if you can't understand this.
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,268
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
This is a very good question and I thank you very much for asking it :nod

All obedience of Law given by Father God and written by His finger on human mind and heart is met ( it's entire obedience requirement ) through practicing loving kindness .This Jesus Christ our Lord 🙏 and Master revealed in Matthew 22: 37-40, Matthew 7:12, Luke 10: 25-28 . It is when we turn away from sin ( through repentance ) and turn TO love , practicing loving kindness , till it becomes a second nature to us, we fulfill the entire demand of the Law and honor the teachings of the Prophets as Jesus taught . The grace emanating from the Cross of Christ is imputed ( John 14:15, Matthew 25:31-46) , all our sins are forgiven ( Proverbs 10:12, 1 Peter 4:8), and we are now good with the Father and Son, honoring commands of both 🙏✝️

That's why John cautioned us in 1 John 4: 8, whoever does not Love does not know God because God IS Love. There is a deep connection between pure, unconditional, Godly love and Salvation friends. That's what Christ was repeatedly teaching. That's also the metric He used on the day of judgement ( Matthew 25:31-46). Jesus used the Criterion that He taught...Love . Acts of Loving--kindness.
It all adds up beautifully .... Because He is Love ( John 10:30)
Apostle John knew all this and therefore he is imploring us with the following words, which if practiced will lead to sure-shot salvation in my humble opinion based on all these incredible teachings of the Christ.
2 John 1:6 - "And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, Christ's command is that you walk in love."
This is the gospel of salvation , I get from the Word of God and this is the gospel I teach brothers and sisters . It all starts with Faith in Christ as Lord and entails in Love . Pure and Godly ❤️🙏✝️
Amen to that !
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,268
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
And then Jesus was crucified and paid the price for all violations of the OT law. If you're one of God's people you're either under grace -- as a Christian -- or under OT law -- as a Jew. Those of us who are born of the Spirit are no longer under the law, otherwise Christ's sacrifice means nothing.

Read Paul's epistle to the Galatians if you can't understand this.
The part of the Mosaic Law that was carried over into the NT is what Jesus cited in Luke 10:26-28...
26 "He (Jesus) said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."
These things can be accomplished by the grace of our Lord through us.

Jesus wasn't referring to dietary rules, circumcision, and the like in Luke 10.
 

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
And then Jesus was crucified and paid the price for all violations of the OT law. If you're one of God's people you're either under grace -- as a Christian -- or under OT law -- as a Jew. Those of us who are born of the Spirit are no longer under the law, otherwise Christ's sacrifice means nothing.

Read Paul's epistle to the Galatians if you can't understand this.
Jay, as previously mentioned ( pls check my OP--- I placed the verses after protracted due diligence brother) the Law of God given by the Highest one, just cannot go. It's right at this moment etched on our minds and hearts, even as you read this post, Jay -- Father God put it there, and nobody in this universe can touch it says Jesus Christ ( Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17), much less lies crucified as paul claimed ( Colossians 2:14).
See brother whether we accept the Law is there or deny it, the Law per se does NOT care. It's still there and will always be there. The analogy I can provide is two friends, Tommy and Jack are arguing on existence of Gravity --- Tommy flatly denies the presence of Gravity on Earth. He says there is no such thing as gravity. Now gravity does not really care whether Tommy believes in its existence or not. It will still work and be there. If Tommy wants to defy it and jump say, from a 1000 foot tall building, we know what gravity will do to him. Much similarly we can deny the Universal and Eternal Law of God BUT we cannot get rid of it and much like Tommy, we will have to bear the consequences of defying it. On the other hand, we can fulfill all its demands and requirements through one word... Love! Praise the Lord Jesus for teaching us that. Can't we keep the one-word teaching of Jesus, rather than finding ways of exterminating the Law of God? If one goes deeper in the Law of God, they will see how beautiful it was/ is. That's why David wrote the largest piece of Psalms, Psalm 119 which extols praises the Law calls it perennial, life-giving magnificent, and should be meditated upon day and night. David was a prophet and knew that Father God's eternal Law will be under attack in the future (as it is today-- and being touted it's dead), and therefore exalts and upholds the Law THROUGHOUT the Psalms, while Jesus issues a strong-worded condemnation to all doers of Lawlessness, and breakers of Law in Matthew 7:21-23.
The more I study the Word, the more I feel scared about the ongoing attack on God's eternal Law. This will have dire consequences, way beyond our imagination.
I'll close this post with a grim reminder to all of us, starting with me! Because while evangelizing in India 15 years ago, I repeatedly said/ shared " We are not under Law, but Grace"
It was only 12 years later I discovered that God's Law is forever and Jesus never taught or even uttered the Word Grace, before the crucifixion, after the resurrection ( Matthew 28:18-20), or in future times (Revelation). "Grace" is conspicuous by its absence in the entire ministry of Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind.
I take this opportunity also to thank CF and its awesome members/ contributors, from whom I have learned so much. Many have such incredible knowledge of the Word. I would like to profoundly thank everyone and in particular JLB, sister Wondering for I have learned lots from them, even if we differ on certain topics. I also thank Stove Bolts and the mods and staff of CF for providing us an opportunity and platform to express/ exchange our views. I have said this often times , and I repeat it again " Churches should have always been like this website--- interactive" Like the first Churches of our Lord 2000 years back. Unless a Church is interactive, it ends up teaching the opinions of one man/ group and if they are wrong, everyone else unites in error. Had the Churches been interactive, the predicament we are in today ( Churches teaching God's Law is dead) would have never occurred. For what they teach, in my understanding of the Word, is a fatal and deathly error
 
Last edited:

jaybo

Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,051
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Jay, as previously mentioned ( pls check my OP--- I placed the verses after protracted due diligence brother) the Law of God given by the Highest one, just cannot go. It's right at this moment etched on our minds and hearts, even as you read this post, Jay -- Father God put it there, and nobody in this universe can touch it says Jesus Christ ( Matthew 5:17-18, Luke 16:17), much less lies crucified as paul claimed ( Colossians 2:14).
See brother whether we accept the Law is there or deny it, the Law per se does NOT care. It's still there and will always be there. The analogy I can provide is two friends, Tommy and Jack are arguing on existence of Gravity --- Tommy flatly denies the presence of Gravity on Earth. He says there is no such thing as gravity. Now gravity does not really care whether Tommy believes in its existence or not. It will still work and be there. If Tommy wants to defy it and jump say, from a 1000 foot tall building, we know what gravity will do to him. Much similarly we can deny the Universal and Eternal Law of God BUT we cannot get rid of it and much like Tommy, we will have to bear the consequences of defying it. On the other hand, we can fulfill all its demands and requirements through one word... Love! Praise the Lord Jesus for teaching us that. Can't we keep the one-word teaching of Jesus, rather than finding ways of exterminating the Law of God? If one goes deeper in the Law of God, they will see how beautiful it was/ is. That's why David wrote the largest piece of Psalms, Psalm 119 which extols praises the Law calls it perennial, life-giving magnificent, and should be meditated upon day and night. David was a prophet and knew that Father God's eternal Law will be under attack in the future (as it is today-- and being touted it's dead), and therefore exalts and upholds the Law THROUGHOUT the Psalms, while Jesus issues a strong-worded condemnation to all doers of Lawlessness, and breakers of Law in Matthew 7:21-23.
The more I study the Word, the more I feel scared about the ongoing attack on God's eternal Law. This will have dire consequences, way beyond our imagination.
I'll close this post with a grim reminder to all of us, starting with me! Because while evangelizing in India 15 years ago, I repeatedly said/ shared " We are not under Law, but Grace"
It was only 12 years later I discovered that God's Law is forever and Jesus never taught or even uttered the Word Grace, before the crucifixion, after the resurrection ( Matthew 28:18-20), or in future times (Revelation). "Grace" is conspicuous by its absence in the entire ministry of Jesus Christ, the savior of mankind.
I take this opportunity also to thank CF and its awesome members/ contributors, from whom I have learned so much. Many have such incredible knowledge of the Word. I would like to profoundly thank everyone and in particular JLB, sister Wondering for I have learned lots from them, even if we differ on certain topics. I also thank Stove Bolts and the mods and staff of CF for providing us an opportunity and platform to express/ exchange our views. I have said this often times , and I repeat it again " Churches should have always been like this website--- interactive" Like the first Churches of our Lord 2000 years back. Unless a Church is interactive, it ends up teaching the opinions of one man/ group and if they are wrong, everyone else unites in error. Had the Churches been interactive, the predicament we are in today ( Churches teaching God's Law is dead) would have never occurred. For what they teach, in my understanding of the Word, is a fatal and deathly error
What is it about "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:4) that you don't understand? If that isn't sufficient to correct your error, read Galatians, a much broader statement about how Christians are dead to the law. Here is a few verses: "The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?" Galatians 3:2-5
 
From
United States
Gender
Male
Messages
11
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
The law is alive and well.
But the Mosaic Law is no longer in force.
The law that lives is this...love God with all your heart and strength, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
What is no longer in force is dietary restrictions, temple worship, priesthood, feast keeping, etc.
In the vision Peter had in Acts 10, he told Christ that he still hasn't eaten unclean meat:

"But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” - Acts 10:14

That was years after Christ returned to Heaven, so if the dietary law was rescinded as most "Christians" claim, Peter would've been stated as chowing down on some pork or other unclean meat. Unclean meat didn't magically stop being unclean after Christ's sacrifice.

Paul also reinforced that law in his letters to Timothy:

"forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." - 1 Tim. 4:3

Where does the Bible talk about food that God created to be received? Lev. 11!

Also, the Acts narrative shows the true Church of God continued to keep the Lev. 23 Holy Days. Nobody in the Church ever disputed the obligation to keep these laws until Simon Magus' disciples began infiltrating the Church and leading converts into antinomianism and other unbiblical doctrines that are considered orthodox by Catholics and Protestants today. Not only did the Church begin with the disciples keeping Pentecost, but the Encyclopedia Britannica states that the 1st century Church kept them long after that:

“There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic fathers. … The first Christians continued to observe the Jewish festivals, though in a new spirit, as commemorations of events which those festivals had foreshadowed. Thus the Passover, with a new conception added to it of Christ as the true Paschal Lamb and the first fruits from the dead, continued to be observed ….”.

A lot of religious people would try to argue that the Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't hold any weight because it's a secular source, but the Quartodeciman Controversy itself proves where God's Church was and that it still kept the Lev. 23 festivals:

“Generally speaking, the western churches kept Easter on the first day of the week, while the eastern churches … kept [Passover] on the 14th day. St. Polycarp, the disciple of St. John the Evangelist and bishop of Smyrna, visited Rome in 159 to confer with Anicetus, the bishop of that see [area], on the subject; and urged the tradition, which he had received from the apostle, of observing the 14th day. … About 40 years later (197) the question was discussed in a very different spirit between Victor, bishop of Rome, and Polycrates, metropolitan of proconsular Asia. … Victor demanded that all should adopt the usage prevailing at Rome. …The few who afterwards separated themselves from the unity of the [Roman] church, and continued to keep the 14th day, were named Quartodecimani, and the dispute itself is known as the Quartodeciman controversy.”

In layman's terms, the Bible and even secular sources say true Christians continued to keep the Holy Days that were clearly commanded to be kept forever in Lev. 23. Even if you don't believe a word the Encyclopedia Britannica says, there is still the matter that Zech. 14 shows these Holy Days were never abolished:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." - Zech. 14:16-19

After reading that passage, an honest person would have to ask themselves why this passage clearly contradicts the popular belief in the "Christian" world that the commanded festivals were abolished. Somebody is obviously lying, and it certainly isn't the Bible.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Rajesh Sahu

Supporter
Messages
540
Joined
Nov 12, 2017
What is it about "So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God" (Romans 7:4) that you don't understand? If that isn't sufficient to correct your error, read Galatians, a much broader statement about how Christians are dead to the law. Here is a few verses: "The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing the works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Although you began with the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by human effort? Have you suffered so many things for nothing?—if indeed it was for nothing. Does God then give you the Spirit and work miracles among you by your doing the works of the law or by your believing what you heard?" Galatians 3:2-5
I wish to say no more brother, for I have written enough. God bless you and everyone else ( including myself) and everything else in the universe, is all I wish to say. And above everything and everyone else, I wish to bless the Lord God, the very reason and source of everything that exists in the entire universe, including universe itself , which runs and sustains on the fuel of Love , which is God ( Jeremiah 23:24, 1 John 4:8, 16, Genesis 1:1)
 

Hopeful

Member
From
Arizona
Gender
Male
Messages
2,268
Joined
Aug 19, 2020
The last statement is a lie. In the vision Peter had in Acts 10, he told Christ that he still hasn't eaten unclean meat:
I'm not a Jew.
The Law of Moses doesn't apply to Gentiles.
Besides, the Lord opened the door to previously unclean foods with the very vision you cite.
"But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” - Acts 10:14
That was years after Christ returned to Heaven, so if the dietary law was rescinded as most "Christians" claim, Peter would've been stated as chowing down on some pork or other unclean meat. Unclean meat didn't magically stop being unclean after Christ's sacrifice.
I don't agree, especially after reading "I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean." (Rom 14:14)
And..."For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer." (1 Tim 4:4-5)
Paul also reinforced that law in his letters to Timothy:
"forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." - 1 Tim. 4:3
Don't you realize that you are the one "forbidding..."?
Where does the Bible talk about food that God created to be received? Lev. 11!

Also, the Acts narrative shows the true Church of God continued to keep the Lev. 23 Holy Days. Nobody in the Church ever disputed the obligation to keep these laws until Simon Magus' disciples began infiltrating the Church and leading converts into antinomianism and other unbiblical doctrines that are considered orthodox by Catholics and Protestants today. Not only did the Church begin with the disciples keeping Pentecost, but the Encyclopedia Britannica states that the 1st century Church kept them long after that:

“There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic fathers. … The first Christians continued to observe the Jewish festivals, though in a new spirit, as commemorations of events which those festivals had foreshadowed. Thus the Passover, with a new conception added to it of Christ as the true Paschal Lamb and the first fruits from the dead, continued to be observed ….”.

A lot of religious people would try to argue that the Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't hold any weight because it's a secular source, but the Quartodeciman Controversy itself proves where God's Church was and that it still kept the Lev. 23 festivals:

“Generally speaking, the western churches kept Easter on the first day of the week, while the eastern churches … kept [Passover] on the 14th day. St. Polycarp, the disciple of St. John the Evangelist and bishop of Smyrna, visited Rome in 159 to confer with Anicetus, the bishop of that see [area], on the subject; and urged the tradition, which he had received from the apostle, of observing the 14th day. … About 40 years later (197) the question was discussed in a very different spirit between Victor, bishop of Rome, and Polycrates, metropolitan of proconsular Asia. … Victor demanded that all should adopt the usage prevailing at Rome. …The few who afterwards separated themselves from the unity of the [Roman] church, and continued to keep the 14th day, were named Quartodecimani, and the dispute itself is known as the Quartodeciman controversy.”

In layman's terms, the Bible and even secular sources say true Christians continued to keep the Holy Days that were clearly commanded to be kept forever in Lev. 23. Even if you don't believe a word the Encyclopedia Britannica says, there is still the matter that Zech. 14 shows these Holy Days were never abolished:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." - Zech. 14:16-19

After reading that passage, an honest person would have to ask themselves why this passage clearly contradicts the popular belief in the "Christian" world that the commanded festivals were abolished. Somebody is obviously lying, and it certainly isn't the Bible.
I suppose you feel circumcision is also necessary for salvation?
I mean, we can't keep just part of the Law now, can we?
We must keep all of it...right?
 

Moseme

Member
From
Here
Gender
Male
Messages
134
Joined
Sep 27, 2020
Why did Jesus point towards the Law when two different people ask him what is required to be saved . The two were Rich man and Christ encounter , and the Expert in Law in Luke 10 : 25-28. On both occasions Jesus pointed at the obedience of Law to be saved. Why?
Nobody can die to the eternal Law of God without getting punished . Law is not dead. It is vibrant and alive and forever and ever . Check my OP
The Law of God is not dead. Nor could it ever die because it is a reflection of God's perfection. However, though the law is not dead I am dead to the law. And the love that I have and give, I do not have from any obligation to God or need to fulfill any law, but it comes directly from a relationship with God. I follow the Spirit of God because I love God and I love God because he first loved me and I have accepted that. If anyone thinks that relying solely on grace for justification grants a license to sin. Does not understand the power of grace. Having become redeemed and joining a relationship with God gives me a natural drive to want to get closer to God.
 

jaybo

Supporter
From
Santa Fe NM
Gender
Male
Messages
1,051
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
I wish to say no more brother, for I have written enough. God bless you and everyone else ( including myself) and everything else in the universe, is all I wish to say. And above everything and everyone else, I wish to bless the Lord God, the very reason and source of everything that exists in the entire universe, including universe itself , which runs and sustains on the fuel of Love , which is God ( Jeremiah 23:24, 1 John 4:8, 16, Genesis 1:1)
Bye.
 

Truthfrees

Staff member
Moderator
From
following God
Gender
Male
Messages
4,181
Joined
May 24, 2017
The last statement is a lie. In the vision Peter had in Acts 10, he told Christ that he still hasn't eaten unclean meat:

"But Peter said, “Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean.” - Acts 10:14

That was years after Christ returned to Heaven, so if the dietary law was rescinded as most "Christians" claim, Peter would've been stated as chowing down on some pork or other unclean meat. Unclean meat didn't magically stop being unclean after Christ's sacrifice.

Paul also reinforced that law in his letters to Timothy:

"forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth." - 1 Tim. 4:3

Where does the Bible talk about food that God created to be received? Lev. 11!

Also, the Acts narrative shows the true Church of God continued to keep the Lev. 23 Holy Days. Nobody in the Church ever disputed the obligation to keep these laws until Simon Magus' disciples began infiltrating the Church and leading converts into antinomianism and other unbiblical doctrines that are considered orthodox by Catholics and Protestants today. Not only did the Church begin with the disciples keeping Pentecost, but the Encyclopedia Britannica states that the 1st century Church kept them long after that:

“There is no indication of the observance of the Easter festival in the New Testament, or in the writings of the apostolic fathers. … The first Christians continued to observe the Jewish festivals, though in a new spirit, as commemorations of events which those festivals had foreshadowed. Thus the Passover, with a new conception added to it of Christ as the true Paschal Lamb and the first fruits from the dead, continued to be observed ….”.

A lot of religious people would try to argue that the Encyclopedia Britannica doesn't hold any weight because it's a secular source, but the Quartodeciman Controversy itself proves where God's Church was and that it still kept the Lev. 23 festivals:

“Generally speaking, the western churches kept Easter on the first day of the week, while the eastern churches … kept [Passover] on the 14th day. St. Polycarp, the disciple of St. John the Evangelist and bishop of Smyrna, visited Rome in 159 to confer with Anicetus, the bishop of that see [area], on the subject; and urged the tradition, which he had received from the apostle, of observing the 14th day. … About 40 years later (197) the question was discussed in a very different spirit between Victor, bishop of Rome, and Polycrates, metropolitan of proconsular Asia. … Victor demanded that all should adopt the usage prevailing at Rome. …The few who afterwards separated themselves from the unity of the [Roman] church, and continued to keep the 14th day, were named Quartodecimani, and the dispute itself is known as the Quartodeciman controversy.”

In layman's terms, the Bible and even secular sources say true Christians continued to keep the Holy Days that were clearly commanded to be kept forever in Lev. 23. Even if you don't believe a word the Encyclopedia Britannica says, there is still the matter that Zech. 14 shows these Holy Days were never abolished:

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles." - Zech. 14:16-19

After reading that passage, an honest person would have to ask themselves why this passage clearly contradicts the popular belief in the "Christian" world that the commanded festivals were abolished. Somebody is obviously lying, and it certainly isn't the Bible.
thank you for this - this information is /has been withheld from believers - most have never heard about any of this - there is a long tradition of hebraic truth being erased from the conversation under penalty of death as per constantine and his replacement - there is a team of modern jewish scholars including mark d nanos who are trying to point out the hebraic truth that is evident still for those who know what they are looking at - it will take a great deal of accurate info to undo the anti-hebraic censorship agenda that that started in 320ad

where did you get this info from as it is not widely available or accepted?
 
Top