It shall not be so among you.

[ejected]

Jesus told His followers that the worlds leaders lord it over their subservients but it shall not be so among you. Yet today we have men lording it over the sheep and are paid to do so. Is there a problem here?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Please quote the scripture for this.
Thank you.

 

[Obadiah]

Yes, I agree. I think you need to cite the exact scripture you are referring to so we can read it in context before being able to have an informed discussion on this. Also, you need to be more specific in your question, for example who are the "men lording it over the sheep and are paid to do so" that you are talking about? I have an idea of where you might be going with this, but really don't want to discuss it until you are more clear first so that we can be sure and not just waste our time.

 

[John 8:32]

Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

The OP makes a very valid point. Here is another point to consider...

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

So teh next time one of these televangelists begins to offer his/her great and wonderful teaching on DVD for only $49.95, consider what Jesus Christ said. The gospel should be distributed without cost. Those distributing it should be relying on God in faith to do His work, not evangelizing for dollars.

 

[Obadiah]

Mat 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
Mat 20:21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Mat 20:24 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
Mat 20:25 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
Mat 20:26 But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
Mat 20:27 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Mar 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us whatsoever we shall desire.
Mar 10:36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for you?
Mar 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
Mar 10:38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?
Mar 10:39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
Mar 10:40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Mar 10:41 And when the ten heard it, they began to be much displeased with James and John.
Mar 10:42 But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them.
Mar 10:43 But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister:
Mar 10:44 And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Mar 10:45 For even the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

The OP makes a very valid point. Here is another point to consider...

Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

So the next time one of these televangelists begins to offer his/her great and wonderful teaching on DVD for only $49.95, consider what Jesus Christ said. The gospel should be distributed without cost. Those distributing it should be relying on God in faith to do His work, not evangelizing for dollars.

Yeah, I kind of assumed he may be talking about one or more of those verses, but sort of wanted to be clear that was the case from Withheld before looking into it. Same with your point about evangelists selling material. But is that exactly what Withheld is referring too? Could be a lot of other things too. I'd just like to have a little more clarification from him before going into it. Of course, he's only made 2 posts so far, so who knows if he will come back or if he's gone like so many that make a post or two then disappear. I hope he comes back and clarifies because it could be an interesting discussion.

 

[ejected]

I wanted to keep it short as possible. On another site I defined the issue in detail and was accused of rambling....whatever that means.
Yes, Matt. 20. Men appointing themselves in positions above the rest. Seems clear that Christ did His level best to warn His own not to follow after the world's form of hierarchy, leadership, and control. Yet that is what we have in what we call 'church'.

 

[Obadiah]

I wanted to keep it short as possible. On another site I defined the issue in detail and was accused of rambling....whatever that means.
Yes, Matt. 20. Men appointing themselves in positions above the rest. Seems clear that Christ did His level best to warn His own not to follow after the world's form of hierarchy, leadership, and control. Yet that is what we have in what we call 'church'.

Thanks for the clarification. I think maybe what you are talking about then are, for example, pastors who preach about "pastoral authority" and consider themselves the "boss" of their congregation members? If that's what you mean, then yeah, I agree 100% that this is wrong. A pastor (by whatever title you choose to call his position within the church) is a spiritual leader, not a boss. Sadly, not all pastors are satisfied with this and want to have a position of authority instead. Sometimes congregations allow this, and other times pastors take this authority anyway through manipulation or intimidation. I feel this is wrong.

 

[Obadiah]

Withheld, on reading your original post again, I remembered you also mentioned people being paid. Are you also suggesting that it is wrong to pay people who preach the Gospel a salary or wage? I would have to disagree with those who say it is wrong to pay people to work in these positions, and what I've read in scripture backs me up on this.

 

[ejected]

In the context of 1Cor.12 and 14. Everyone is ministering. Who gets paid?

 

[Deborah13]

In the context of 1Cor.12 and 14. Everyone is ministering. Who gets paid?

I really don't see that you are considering all the a pastor may be doing in his ministry of serving the Church.

If a pastor has a fulltime ministry, not because he choose to stay home and play games, but because he is called upon to counsel, visit those in the hospital, nursing homes, youth activities, who knows what all he may be called to do, then he should be paid. imo

 

[Obadiah]

Withheld, there is a big difference between someone who witnesses to their acquaintances when possible and maybe also teaches a Sunday School class or Bible study, and a person who works in ministry full time, putting in 40 to 60 hours per week and has no reasonable time left over to make a living for himself and his family in any other job. People who are called and work in ministry as their profession should be paid. This is scriptural.

There are many scriptures that support this, but since you mentioned Corinthians, I will first cite 1 Cor 9:9-14 “For it is written in the Law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain.†Is it for oxen that God is concerned? Does he not speak entirely for our sake? It was written for our sake, because the plowman should plow in hope and the thresher thresh in hope of sharing in the crop. If we have sown spiritual things among you, is it too much if we reap material things from you? If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more? Nevertheless, we have not made use of this right, but we endure anything rather than put an obstacle in the way of the gospel of Christ. Do you not know that those who are employed in the temple service get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in the sacrificial offerings? In the same way, the Lord commanded that those who proclaim the gospel should get their living by the gospel.†That makes it pretty clear that scripture says we are responsible for paying those who minister as their job.

There is also Galatians 6:6 “One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.†And this is confirmed again in 1 Tim 5: 17-18 “Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,†and, “The laborer deserves his wages.†Once again, it is actually a scriptural command to pay the preacher and this is confirmed in multiple places, even more than I have listed here.

Today in our society “good things†are normally “shared†with employees through a paycheck so these passages as well as others in the Bible not only support paying pastors, evangelists, teachers, etc, but they actually make it unscriptural to NOT pay them. That’s not to say that everyone who does some kind of ministry work should get rich off of it, but they should be compensated in some way according to what the church can pay. For someone who simply gives a Bible study from commercially available study material in a small church, maybe that compensation can be a free dinner sometimes, or being allowed to go on some church retreat or other event for free. But for a person that puts in as many hours in church work as most of us put in on our secular jobs, they certainly are to be paid, and they should be paid enough that they can live a lifestyle similar to those who work a similar amount of hours in similar secular work in the area the church is in.

The church also needs to make this their priority too. If it means sacrificing other things, then so be it. I know one church where one of the pastor’s contract calls for him to work the same number of hours per week as the janitor’s contract calls for, and he is paid the same amount as the janitor. Then when money was short, his pay was cut, but not the janitors pay. What does that tell you about that congregation’s priorities?

 

[ejected]

I will point to 1Cor. 12 and 14 where all ministered. If you search these chapters you'll not find an executive pastor doing all things. He is curiously missing. The word honor in the verses you supplied means honor in the Greek. There is a Greek word meaning wages but that is not the one chosen here. As far as the oxe is concerned he was allowed to eat food. The apostles were told they could accept food, not salaries, insurance plans, new car, housing, etc., etc..
Paul, an apostle/missionary, had a right to support but he refused it so as not to hinder the gospel.
Also Paul never equated preaching to work. He worked a job and preached on the side. History reveals that the rabbis/teachers of that day refused pay for their ministries.
So to cap, the apostles/missionaries accepted food, not salaries.
Also Paul told the elders/leaders in the local bodies to work jobs in order to support the poor. Acts 20. He also warned that if anyone did not work, they should not eat.
You listed a litany of the jobs that the modern 'pastor' must do. May I submit these things should be done by all the believers.
I will hammer home more than once that the singular 'pastor' is missing throughout the New Testament. Their should be no clerical/laity system in God's economy. Jesus said in Matt. 20 that 'their are those in power and have authority over the Gentiles but let it not be so among you'. No man is to lord it over His heritage. Elders, pastors plural. These are those who have been around the block some, the older more mature. They are to watch over the new bees with great care. Teach them the word, bringing them into maturity for the work of the ministry. (1Cor12 and14). Watch out for wolves that Paul said would spring up in their midst like Diotrephes in 3 John who wanted to quit his job and position himself as a cleric above the other sheep. Again, Jesus said don't do that. It genders arrogance and sets the rest of the underlings at nought concerning their spiritual functions. Stay in the business where you were saved, unless it was an ungodly Trade of course, but don't quit you job.
Also Jesus hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans, power over laity.
Jesus as Head has been replaced by a man. The 'pastor'. He is the head now. The one who is in charge. The one we pay to do all the things the first century ekklesia did as a body with many parts. Instead of a leg, an arm, a torso, a foot, a hand...we now have one single mouth with a whole bunch of ears.
It was an alive organism back in the day that turned the world upside down for Christ. Now we have an organization with a CEO that has a name that says it is alive yet it is dead. Think Sardis.
No I am not bashing the body of Christ. I am shining a light on falsehood, doctrines of men and of demons and on the 'traditions of men that make void and null the word of God' Jesus said to the religious leaders of His day.
Paul even warned that he feared this whole thing would fall apart before the first shovel of dirt would hit his face.
Well he was right. Then king James clenched the deal.

 

[Sparkey]

God wanted Judges. Men wanted Kings.

Today we want to have full time ministers who are free to preach the word and lead Sunday Service as well as perform other works for the body of believers they support. If this is what we want then would it be wrong to pay them? I have no objection to paying for a McDonald's burger. What is the objection to paying for a meal designed to bring me closer to God?

 

[ejected]

Hello Sparrowhawke. God bless you my friend. As David was punished for carrying the ark the wrong way, would that behoove us to want to do things the way God has prescribed? 'There is a way that seems right unto a man but the end thereof is death.' I'm just saying.

 

[Obadiah]

So to cap, the apostles/missionaries accepted food, not salaries.

The verses I cited clearly said to share "all" good things, not just food. In their culture, barter was a common method of payment, so it was very common to pay a person for work or service with a goat, chicken, or whatever. As I stated before, in modern society wages are paid with money, and the worker uses that to buy what he needs. There is nothing at all unscriptural about this. The point of the verses wasn't that we should pay in food, the point is that we should pay! Did you miss the part in 1 Cor 9 that says "If others share this rightful claim on you, do not we even more?" In other words, if the janitor or the people that supply the electricity have a right to be paid (and they do. If you think they don't, try to withold their pay and see how fast you end up on the loosing side of a court battle!) shouldn't the pastor have even more right to payment?

Now there are churches that are very small and in very poor areas where a pastor may choose to volunteer because if he didn't, the Gospel wouldn't get preached. There is nothing wrong with this, and I'm sure Paul and his contemporaries did this many times. But when a church is populated with enough people making enough money that if they were even dedicated enough to God to tithe, there would be plenty of money to pay for all the needs of the church, including a pastor's salary, and have plenty left over then they have no excuse to disobey the scriptures I cited. The problem isn't a problem of the churches paying pastor's wages when they shouldn't. It's a problem of most congregation members being to cheap to even give their tithe, much less an offering. And by paying a tithe, I don't mean just money. They are even more cheap with their time and talents as well! This is where the problems is!

The word honor in the verses you supplied means honor in the Greek.

It seems you are quite incorrect about this. The Greek word "timē" used in 1 Tim 5:17 means " a valuing by which the price is fixed" and some translations render it as "paid well". There is a secondary alternative definition that has to do with honor as we usually think of it in modern English, such as honoring a king or hero, but that definition doesn't fit the context of the verse in question.

Paul, an apostle/missionary, had a right to support but he refused it so as not to hinder the gospel.

As with some other things Paul said, this was his statement about what he was able to do and chose to do. When properly read within the context, this is obviously not a command from God that it must be this way for everyone.

You seem to have come to this forum with an agenda against paid ministerial staff and are quite convinced that it is unscriptural to pay a pastor for the work he does. It's true I have seen churches (several back in the 1970's) that tried to function this way. All of them have disappeared and none lasted long. You seem to have no idea of the job requirements of a pastor in a church these days, or of the amount of time and effort it takes on their part to do that job. I think maybe you're agenda is against the minority that are getting wealthy off of the donations of poor people, and I would agree with you that this is wrong. But to expect every man that puts in 60 hours a week for your benefit and edification for free, and then tell him if he wants to earn a living he needs to go out and get a full time secular job on top of his full time ministry, you will find you will not have a worthwhile pastor for very long. He will either soon quit being the pastor, or it will kill him. Yes, I've seen that happen too.

Your viewpoint on pastors not being worth wages is neither realistic or scriptural.

 

[ejected]

The Greek time was used.honor, value, respect, nobility, specialness, and I'll grant you at the tail end...money, cost.
Why do you suppose he did not use the. more concise word, opsonion: pay, wage, support, compensation, wages, charges? Was he trying to confuse the folks?
Also if you see all the verses where time is used, its honor not money. I can concede to a gratuity of sorts offered freely to the one who labors in the word but when you tie in other scriptures, the guy that quits his job, gets a business card and tells everyone that they owe him a living is unfounded.
Elders must not be covetous, nor desiring filthy lucre. Freely you received, freely give should be the attitude and m.o..
One should not charge. It should be the givers idea.
As far as a broader support system, it should for those, as Paul, that take the gospel to the unsaved and the support of the widows and the poor.
I have no agenda. I gain nothing for the points I'm discussing. Why is it when someone raises a legitimate question about something, they are accused of either having an agenda, or being a rebel, or have been hurt, or whatever.
I have pointed out that the executive single pastor cannot be found anywhere in the n. t. And no one has answered why yet. Why are all the folks ministering in 1cor. 12 and 14 and no one has answered it yet. Why has not Paul ever written to the pastor of such and such city. Where did this single salaried pastor come from if he cannot be found in scripture. Are we not suppose stick with the word of God or not. You are talking pastor and his benefits package all day long and have not used one verse to point this 'one man' team out yet. I just want to stick with His word on these things. Is that so bad? I have not accused you of having an agenda like maybe protecting your self interests concerning an upper position that you get a financial benefit for. I haven't done that and I won't. Because I don't know what your life consists of. But your words do give you away some.
I have known a lot of 'pastors' throughout the years. They were not exactly killing themselves. But many do and are suffering from burnout. Why?They hold a position that God did not ordain. If He did, then why are so many living in misery.
Google George Barna. He has some interesting statistics on this travesty which again begs the question, is this one man ministry financed by the pew sitters while their functions go untapped, really of God. It hurts the guy with the title, that Christ condemned, and it starves and cheats the 'body parts' of 1 Cor.12 and 14 out of their rightful inheritance and ministries.
Read 1Cor.12 and 14.
By the way are you one of the upper level 'clerics'?

 

[CORE]

"Is there a problem here?"

Ya, there is a problem...there is no reason that a small group of believers can't join together once or twice a week to worship, study and break bread without attending some shady institution and giving them all their money to pay for the big building and all the other gross misappropriation of funds...

 

[Sparkey]

Hello Sparrowhawke. God bless you my friend. As David was punished for carrying the ark the wrong way, would that behoove us to want to do things the way God has prescribed? 'There is a way that seems right unto a man but the end thereof is death.' I'm just saying.

Of course this is true. I also like the use of the word "behoove". Ya don't hear that so much these days. I'm not sure that I can go as far as to say that the "end thereof" is death though. My impression of our Father is not found in the woodshed. Your Father's lap is the place where you belong, O ye sons of God.

Sometimes I too hear Madonna's "Material Girl" song sung by the churches. It can make me crazed but I prefer the word "zealous".

 

[Obadiah]

Well, Withheld, I don't care to add anything more to what I've already said concerning what is scriptural. The reason being that I already gave you clear scripture that you have ignored and I can't change that. You have only focused on one word from one verse, and the only definition of that word that you will accept is the one that makes no sense in the context of the entire passage it comes from, and you ignore the rest of that passage as well. I simply and strongly disagree with you on this. You also seem to have a penchant for putting words in my mouth. I never used the title "Executive Pastor" that you keep challenging me to find in the Bible. Of course I can't because there is no such term in the Bible, and of course you know this. However the term "pastor" is in the Bible (or it's equivalent, depending on who translated the passage). Any good concordance can point you to it. I also never said there should only be one pastor and I have been in churches that have several. It all depends on their particular needs, and none of that is unscriptural. I never said a person who is a pastor as a profession should go around demanding a certain fee for his services as you are suggesting. Every church I have been involved in that has had a paid pastor has made the decision to pay him and made the decision of how much to pay him on their own free will, decided by the members of the congregation as a whole. (Seems to me that this fits what you are describing as a "gratuity", doesn't it? Let's not play the semantics game, ok?) I've never known a pastor who has approached a church with his own price already set and told them if they won't pay his price, he won't preach in their church. Not to say that has never happened, but I've never seen or heard of it in the part of the world I live in. Although I have seen it happen with other people who consider themselves "in ministry" such as certain music groups, etc. There used to be a time those groups, even the big name ones, would work only for a free will offering. Now some of them charge such high non-negotiable fees that any church using them has to charge admission just like at a secular concert to be able to afford them. Maybe you should be focusing your efforts on things like that instead of on the poor guy that was called by a small neighborhood congregation to be their pastor and gets far less compensation than any of his secular counterparts with equal education, talents, and hours worked per week.

Also, I'm well familiar with George Barna and the Barna Group. Are you aware that they have found that in the typical American church all this work (that I agree should be shared by everyone, by the way) is actually only done by less than 10% of the congregation members. At least one church I've been involved with it was more like 3%. Same thing goes for tithes and offerings. Instead of being out to condemn the pastor for getting paid a wage for his work, I think it would be a lot more appropriate to condemn the majority of congregations (at least in many parts of the world) where 90% or more of their members are nothing more than cheap and lazy spectators. And as for 1 Cor 12 and 14 that you have cited so many times, I see nothing in either of those chapters supporting your position that it is unscriptural to pay a pastor for his efforts, and you never cited any particular verses in those passages to support your case. just because God gives spiritual gifts to Christians and gives us all places within the body of Christ doesn't mean that we are to ignore the other verses I cited that clearly say a pastor should be paid.

For the record, and since you asked, I am not a pastor of a church and I make my living running my own business which is not church related at all.

 

[reba]

Thanks [MENTION=93344]Obadiah[/MENTION], As the daughter of a small town, small church, pastor who had to have second job often to pay the bills of the church... you are spot on!