That's not addressing what I stated, so it's a red herring.
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It's so simple:
- Thread starter K2CHRIST
- Start date
That's not addressing what I stated, so it's a red herring.
Okay, what are you saying?
Sinthesis
Member
Act 16:27
Please answer what I wrote at #38. That's what I was saying and you did not answer it, thus making your response a red herring. See the meaning of 'red herring' (The Nizkor Project)
There is not a word in this verse to support your claim, 'The jailer repented of his old life beforehand'. Not a word about repentance.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Oz,
Oz,
You give the Greek word for "repent" but did not translate it.
I posted on the word Repent on a different thread. See if you agree with what I said.
My understanding is that the word Repent means To Change Direction.
Here's what I had written. Your comment will be appreciated:
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Gerbilgirl
Here's the dictionary meaning of repent and then I'll tell you the best way to repent:
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re·pent 1
(rĭ-pĕnt′)
v.re·pent·ed, re·pent·ing, re·pents
v.intr.
1. To feel remorse, contrition, or self-reproach for what one has done or failed to do; be contrite: "[He] liked to visit prisoners and admonish them to repent of their ways" (Adam Hochschild).
2. To feel such regret for past conduct as to change one's mind regarding it: repented of intemperate behavior. You'd better accept their offer before they repent.
3. To become a more moral or religious person as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
v.tr.
1. To feel regret or self-reproach for: repent one's sins.
2. Archaic To cause (one or oneself) to feel remorse or regret: "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth" (King James Bible).
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However, it doesn't really explain what repent means.
In Christianity repent means TO CHANGE DIRECTION
This is an important concept. It means that you were walking in one direction and then you stopped, turned around and walked in the other direction.
So, you were walking in the direction toward satan. You were going toward him, as most are since they are lost. Those lost are walking in the direction leading to satan.
Then one day you decide to TURN AROUND and walk toward God. You change your direction and now you're walking toward God and you become saved.
This is important because if we say that we "repent" for our sins it has to mean in the sense of being sorry - and not repenting. You only need to repent ONCE, otherwise it means you're trusting in yourself to get saved an not trusting in Jesus.
Once you repent, everything is called sins - for which Jesus covers you. You're still headed in the right direction - you just get up and keep going.
What is the best way to repent?
Just DECIDE to walk toward God.
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Wondering,
I was hoping that somebody else would provide an understanding of the meaning of metanoia. You have done it from an English language point of view.
For an exegesis of the various uses of repentance (metanoia) and the verb, I repent (metanoeo), see the brief but excellent explanation by one of Australia's leading Greek exegetes, Dr Leon Morris. Until his death he used to teach at the evangelical Anglican Ridley College, Melbourne. His article is available online, 'Repentance'.
That's my understanding of the word from NT Greek into English. It is not predominantly an intellectual change of mind but relates to a decision by the whole person to turn around. It does not refer primarily to an outward turning of behaviour nor to an intellectual change of mind and ideas.
It is not something that human beings can decide to do. It is not a human changing of the mind but requires the action of God by his grace to bring the change of mind. This change of mind is synonymous with conversion, a change of the thought, the will and the mind.
Leon Morris' article gives plenty of Scriptural emphases for the use of the noun (metanoia) and the verb (metanoeo) in the NT. Esau 'found no chance to repent' (Heb 12:17 ESV). There is a situation in Heb 6:4-6 (ESV) where there is no opportunity for a second repentance.
We must remember the content of 2 Tim 2:24-26 (ESV) and God's bringing people to repentance:
What is the best way to repent? Cry out to God to ask him to grant you repentance? Repentance comes from God alone. You and I can't do it in our human strength.
Oz
Certainly we should try and be loving, but is what we are seeking to like Him or Him?
This is a very important distinction!!
It is written that only God is good. Trying to be good is not going to make you good. In the same since, trying to be loving is not going to make you loving. Trying to be God is not going to make you God! So trying to do good works is not going to make your works good!
But if I am seeking Him, He is going to tell me what to do and because He is good and He created me, so He knows how I do things, doing the things He tells me to do are going to be good. Since He is love, and not me, the things I do according to what He tells me are going to be loving things to do.
For example; once He told me to give a homeless man on the street $20. I told the Lord I could give the man $100. The Lord told me that the man like to drink and if I gave him $100 he would get badly drunk but if I gave him $20 he would be more careful with it because food was more important to him that drink.
We are not in position to know what's best, only God is. We are not even in a position to disregard our selfish feelings, so we need the Lord for that too. We need the Lord! Seeking to be like God is not the answer, seeking to know God is!
My aunt, the high priestess of a New Age movement was not trying to know the Lord Jesus Christ (God's anointed), she was trying to be God's anointed.
That Christ church (and it was not everyone in that church but many in the high places of that church) was trying to be loving according to their understanding but were not seeking the instructions of the Lord Jesus Christ. That was why the leader running the gifts class didn't believe in prophecy today. If we seek the Lord's voice we will find that He can talk to us about what's going to happen tomorrow like we can talk about what happened yesterday. It's just something you find out when you talk to Him. You can't spend much time talking to Him and not understand that He knows what's going to happen. So of course He can give prophesy today; but she didn't know that and so I knew she didn't spend much time talking to Him.
However I am not talking about most Christians, but a problem at a specific church and not even all those in that church!
I didn't say this nor do I agree with the above statement. Even before I knew the Lord I felt the Christians in general are a more loving group of people that any other I knew! Yeah, before I knew the Lord I felt they were a bit judgmental, but that didn't bother me. They (Christians) tended to me nicer that most people, and I knew that before knowing the Lord.
And I was shocked, when I did find out how cruel they could be at that church (which was the first church I went to after coming to know the Lord). And again that was not all at that church. Many were some of the most wonderful people you can meet. Sadly it was many of the leaders there. I believe society expects more from Christians, simple because of our stated belief. And I am all for trying to be as loving as possible, but if we think that is really accomplished by our efforts to be loving instead of our following the Lord Jesus Christ and His instructions to us we are flat our wrong.
We are not seeking to be loving, we are seeking God who is love!!!!!
Those feelings are incredible. I know exactly what your are talking about. I have experienced so many times. But we are preaching the Word of God. To some that means the Bible, but I mean hearing from the Lord. The Lord appeared and spoke to Abram in a vision and Abram believed the One talking to Him was the Lord and that belief was counted to him as righteousness. (Gen 15) And Jesus said He leads His sheep out with His voice. (Jn 10:4) There is more to do that feeling the touch of the Lord. If we are going to be loving, we need His wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, which come from His mouth (Prov 2:6). We also need His instructions to know where and what to do. (Pro 5:23). And we need His teaching (Mark 7:7, Ps 71:17).
And if we have indeed obtained His wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, which comes from Him mouth, and His instructions to us personally, which come from His mouth, and His teachings which come form His mouth, then we must be telling others to seek the words that come from His mouth! Right? We didn't feel His touch and then go back to leaning on our understanding did we?
So as for me, I try to do things with love but to me that means I try to do things with God who is love.
The best example I have in my life is in the healing ministry He asked me to work in. When people come in for prayer I try my best to constantly be checking and listening to the Lord for how to proceed. Does He want me to lead them in forgiveness, or pray for a miracle, or perhaps just listen to them for a bit. I am convinced that don't have the answer but He does, so it is about me listening to Him and not about me do my best loving act. And for me, the most exciting things is when I have them ask the Lord and they start hearing Him speak to them. This is a Christian ministry so mostly we get in Christians and it amazes me how many times hear the Lord for the first time in that ministry.
I remember once an old lady probably about 70 came in. She had gone to a church of the same conservative denomination as the problem one I mentioned. She was highly involved in that church, but needed pray for a bad arm and come to our Charismatic healing room for her arm. She told me she had gone to church most of her life. We prayed for her arm and God instantly healed it. Then I had her seek the voice of the Lord and she heard Him talking to her. When we wrapped up she told me her history and explained that was the first time she had every heard the small voice of the Lord. She had heard about the small voice of the Lord but had never heard it.
People need to know the Lord. They need to hear His voice. He has touched me in lots of ways, but perhaps the best was when I first heard Him tell me "I love you, Karl." Instantly tears flooded down my face, so I could hardly see the stop sign I was approaching. And now I hear Him tell me that almost daily. It's not about my love for them, it is about His love for them. They need to know Him.
Oz, I did re-read post #38 and I still see nothing worth debating there nor any question to answer there. I've also read your post #47 along with Dr. Morris' definition of repentance. Dr. Morris essentially is making my point even as you are. Note that Dr. Morris first says that the term repentance is relative "It does not have ethical meaning, so that the change of mind is not necessarily a change for the better". That was also the point I was making when I said this: the term repentance as well as all relative terms are defined by one's definition of God.
Of course in scripture the term repentance is qualified by sin, and sin is relative to God, and that is the paradigm to which I was applying the term. So say, one's god is the "god of this world" as spoken of in 2 Corinthians 4:4. Then repentance would be relative to this false imagery of god and not a change for the better, but only an outward appearance of change. Matthew 23:25.
In post #47 you speak of "a change of mind". You then point out that God's granting grace is required for this change of mind to be affective towards any real conversion. My post was describing exactly that here: "So to me, repentance is acknowledging that God is Love, and that Love is ultimately the goodness in mankind that we should live and die to serve." Notice that there is a new way of thinking about God. "God is our goodness". This necessarily means that through acknowledging God as that power that is the light within us, we also therefore must acknowledge that only by grace through faith can His Spirit bring about any real conversion. Repentance is therefore not accomplished by simply deciding to change our ways at our discretion, lest any man boast.
So what are our thoughts prior to this change? I believe it is that we think we freely choose to do good or evil of our own volition, (free will in the moral/immoral purview). And this is also recognized as righteousness by works, the Old Testament form of righteousness. Also, that God made in our image, has the same free will that chooses between good and evil and is therefore able to lie. These are the same thoughts introduced in the garden of Eden. Hence true repentance is applicable to where sin began.
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Sinthesis
Member
The symbolism of baptism includes the death of the old life. The jailer knew that his old life was now as good as nothing. In choosing suicide he was repenting of the life that had gotten him to that position.
That's not what the text of Acts 16 states. Resorting to allegorical interpretation does not lead to exegesis of what the text means.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Oz,
I read the article you linked.
I'm posting the first 3 paragraphs here for those who are reading along - not everyone goes to links.
It's from John Mark Ministries
jmm.org
REPENTANCE
In Greek writings generally the word used in the New Testament for repentance means ‘a change of mind’. It is used only with reference to a single action, not for a wholehearted change that may affect the whole of life. It does not have ethical meaning, so that the change of mind is not necessarily a change for the better.
This is one of the words to which the New Testament writers gave a fuller and deeper meaning. For them it meant first a deep sorrow for the sins people have committed (see the way it is used in Acts 8:22; 2 Cor. 12:21; Rev. 9:21). The Greeks did not have such an idea, but for the Christians it was basic that people should turn away from all the evil they themselves have committed.
Sorrow for sin is not enough: there must be a genuine turning away from the evil thing. To be sorry over sin without turning away from it is remorse, but remorse is not repentance. When we repent we are indeed sorry about the wrong we have done, but by God’s grace we turn away from it and determine with his help to do better in the future.
It may not have ethical meaning, but the in the way it is used in Christianity it does mean a change for the better.
"Repent and believe the gospel". Repent - change the direction in which you are going. The new direction, the change, will be toward God.
Also, it is a single action. It does bring to a change that affects all of life, even though its meaning is not such as John Mark notes. I like to think of it this way because it explains really well what becoming a Christian means. You "change your mind" about where you're headed. Some will use the word repent to mean that we must repent of each individual sin, which is correct in a sense. If we are to stop committing a particular sin, we must turn away from that sin. But this makes the word lose its important meaning. (although I understand it can be used this way). I understand this more as being sorry, or remorse, or feeling contrition for a sin together with a resolve to not commit it again.
Repent, if it is to keep its important meaning must mean that one action, when a person decides to turn away from walking toward satan and changes direction and walks toward God - which would be the born again, or conversion, experience.
I think this is a really important word to explain Christianity and means more than just being sorry for our sins, which is how many use it.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Childeye
You state above that Dr. Morris says the word Repentance does not have an ethical meaning and does not necessarily mean a change for the better.
But when used in Christianity it does mean exactly that. When Peter was preaching and said "Repent and let each of you be baptized..." in Acts 2:38 he meant that they should repent and decide to go in the correct direction - so toward God... certainly not toward satan!
So, yes, I would say that Repent means that the change will be for the better. It does not depend on our definition of the word - we must use it the way the N.T. writers used it.
Wondering
Wondering,
In that first paragraph, Dr Leon Morris, is talking about classical Greek writings, not biblical Greek, when he stated:
I do believe that what you have stated about repentance referring to a change for the better, is what Dr Morris stated about its use in Scripture.
I understand that Dr Morris confirmed that repentance in the NT is equivalent to conversion to Christ.
I think the language Dr Morris used should have been clearer in the first paragraph when he said, 'In Greek writings', when he meant 'In classical/secular Greek writings prior to the NT and excluding the Septuagint'.
John Mark Ministries in Melbourne is simply sponsoring the article on 'Repentance' by Dr Morris on the JMM website. The article is by one of the most outstanding Greek exegetes Australia has produced in the late Dr Leon Morris. I never heard him speak in person but one of my Bible college teachers had been to hear him and said he would come to the meeting with his Greek NT in hand and speak directly from the Greek text, with not a note to prompt him. My teacher said he was not the most inspiring speaker - but was quite dry - but he knew how to get God's word directly from the Greek text of Scripture and deliver to the people.
It was preachers like Leon Morris and others I've heard over the years who encouraged me to write this kind of article, It’s a sin to bore God’s people with God’s Word.
Oz
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Of course you're right about the term repentance. It is supposed to be a good thing as used in Christianity. But the term is relative nonetheless, And therefore we also find the term "repent" meaning a bad thing such as in the following scripture with "repented" carrying a negative connotation.
2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
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GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Hi Oz,
Thanks for the correction regarding the article I posted being written by Dr. Leon Morris. I failed to state that.
I'll also be reading It's a Sin to Bore God's People with God's Word.
I always find your articles to be very interesting.
Wondering
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Is repentance a bad thing in 2 Corinthians 7.10 ?
Paul is telling the Corinthians that he was sorry he had to write them a letter of correction ( 1 Corinthians) but that he was not sorry he had to write it!
Because there is an earthly sorrow which does not lead to repentence. You may be sorry you got caught stealing, but you're not sorry you stole the money. You only regret being caught.
OTOH, the repentance leading to God is without regret - it leads to life. Whereas the former leads to death.
A worldy regret, or repentance, could lead nowhere. But we're speaking here of Christianly regret and repentance. The Christian person always operates under different laws with different results.
The letter Paul sent hurt the Corinthians for a while but he's glad he sent it because it turned them to God.
It was a good kind of sorrow, the kind that turns one to God. Worldly sorrow turns one to despair.
Wondering