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Jesus Is God: Part 1

Hidden In Him

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Greetings all. I posted this elsewhere and thought maybe I would share it with my new forum as well, since I have a few days off for a little forum activity. There are a lot of non-Trinitarians on the forum where I initially posted this, which is why I thought it might be helpful in illuminating the Biblical text, and providing a support base for the teaching of the early church. There is a Part 2 and Part 3, but all center on passages that I feel non-Trinitarian arguments don't do very good job of refuting.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is one non-Trinitarian argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________


The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
 

Hopeful

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Greetings all. I posted this elsewhere and thought maybe I would share it with my new forum as well, since I have a few days off for a little forum activity. There are a lot of non-Trinitarians on the forum where I initially posted this, which is why I thought it might be helpful in illuminating the Biblical text, and providing a support base for the teaching of the early church. There is a Part 2 and Part 3, but all center on passages that I feel non-Trinitarian arguments don't do very good job of refuting.

Blessings in Christ,
Hidden In Him

First the verse: "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." (εἶχον πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι. John 17:5)

Quoting from Biblical Unitarian, here is one non-Trinitarian argument concerning this verse:

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate be in the Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth...
____________________


The problem with this argument is that Jesus in no uncertain terms asks to be clothed with the glory He had with the Father before the world began, not some glory that was "in the mind of God" before the world began. This is adding to the text to support a doctrinal bias.

I agree that a person's doctrines should not be formed out of doctrinal bias, as the author himself admitted when he stated, "It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God." But he is committing the very sin he is accusing others of. The word ought to be read for what it says, not what it has to be manipulated into saying in order to suit someone's preconceived notions.

God bless,
Hidden In Him
Jesus did exist before the world began, but He was the Word back then.
 

Hidden In Him

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Jesus did exist before the world began, but He was the Word back then.

Greetings, Hopeful.

Not sure what form you are saying He would have taken before the world began, but the primary purpose of this thread is to defend against accusations the Lord Jesus Christ is not Divine. If we are agreed on that, then my primary concern has been addressed. Yours would be a secondary discussion.

God bless, and thanks for the response : )
- H
 
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jaybo

 
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Greetings, Hopeful.

Not sure what form you are saying He would have taken before the world began, but the primary purpose of this thread is to defend against accusations the Lord Jesus Christ is not Divine. If we are agreed on that, then my primary concern has been addressed. Yours would be a secondary discussion.

God bless, and thanks for the response : )
- H

It doesn't matter if some people make accusations that the Lord Jesus Christ is not Divine. He was, is, and always will be.

John 1:1-5, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning. All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created. In him was life, and the life was the light of mankind. And the light shines on in the darkness, but the darkness has not mastered it."
 

Hopeful

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Greetings, Hopeful.

Not sure what form you are saying He would have taken before the world began, but the primary purpose of this thread is to defend against accusations the Lord Jesus Christ is not Divine. If we are agreed on that, then my primary concern has been addressed. Yours would be a secondary discussion.

God bless, and thanks for the response : )
- H
Though Jesus ended up "divine", and as the Word, before taking on the flesh, He was divine; while He walked the earth He had all the attributes and deficiencies of a plain old man.
He did not know when the end of time would be, for instance.
I feel He laid aside His divinity to experience all we would have ever encountered in our own walks so He could more clearly see what we are up against.
And be quick to assist us.
Thanks be to God, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ.
 

for_his_glory

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1. God is Spirit, John 4:24, not flesh and blood and in the OT either spoke directly to the prophets or by angels and also various objects like a burning bush or an ass for example. Between the OT and NT God was silent towards Israel as when they returned to Israel from the Babylonian captivity they came back as merchants and not shepherds as they were disobedient to God going after other gods, Book of Malachi.

2. Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21

3. After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awakenings in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15

Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.

Jesus being the right arm of God. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
 

Hopeful

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Not sure what you mean by this as He has always been divine in the Father as being Alpha and Omega.
Wouldn't you think the "Divine" would know when the end of the world is?
Jesus is divine now, since His ascension and the acquisition of His glorified body.
 

for_his_glory

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Wouldn't you think the "Divine" would know when the end of the world is?
Jesus is divine now, since His ascension and the acquisition of His glorified body.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Jesus already foreknew when the end of the world would be as He has already told us what to watch for in His coming. But, the day and hour only God knows as He will then send His Son Christ Jesus down as we will see Him coming in the clouds.

Jesus has always been Divine (holy) as He has no beginning or end.
 

Hopeful

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Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Jesus already foreknew when the end of the world would be as He has already told us what to watch for in His coming. But, the day and hour only God knows as He will then send His Son Christ Jesus down as we will see Him coming in the clouds.

Jesus has always been Divine (holy) as He has no beginning or end.
It is written..."But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." (Matt 24:36)
 

jaybo

 
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Jesus did exist before the world began, but He was the Word back then.
That is the title that John gave Jesus, but He was/is/will be the same person. Jesus -- actually Yeshua -- was the name given to Him.

Luke 1:31-32, "Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning."
 

Randy

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Jesus did exist before the world began, but He was the Word back then.
There are problems with that assumption. The Jesus who was as a word not a being.
First is in Genesis
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness

Second there is the incarnation.
Only a body was prepared for Jesus
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

The Jesus who was,(His spirit), was in that body.
"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
 

for_his_glory

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Jesus did exist before the world began, but He was the Word back then.
Is Jesus no longer the word today?

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

He in whatever form He was before the foundation of the world and in the form He will return in has and always will be Divine/
 

for_his_glory

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He had all the attributes and deficiencies of a plain old man.
Please show us this with the scripture that says this.
Being fully God and fully man in order to relate to man in human form there were no deficiencies found in Him as again, He has always been Divine being Alpha and Omega.
 

Hopeful

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That is the title that John gave Jesus, but He was/is/will be the same person. Jesus -- actually Yeshua -- was the name given to Him.

Luke 1:31-32, "Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David.

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. The Word was with God in the beginning."
It was the Word's title before John announced it.
The Word received the name Jesus when the Word took on flesh.
 

Hopeful

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There are problems with that assumption. The Jesus who was as a word not a being.
First is in Genesis
Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness
The Word was a being; and with the Father, constituted "our" image.
Second there is the incarnation.
Only a body was prepared for Jesus
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
The Jesus who was,(His spirit), was in that body.
"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"
I guess our assumptions differ.
 

Hopeful

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Is Jesus no longer the word today?
I suppose you could say He was still the Word today, but after taking on flesh, He was called Jesus.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
He in whatever form He was before the foundation of the world and in the form He will return in has and always will be Divine/
He didn't have flesh before the founding of the world.
In fact, He now has a glorified body.
Obviously, the verse in question refers to something besides physical appearance.
 

Hopeful

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Please show us this with the scripture that says "He had all the attributes and deficiencies of a plain old man."
Being fully God and fully man in order to relate to man in human form there were no deficiencies found in Him as again, He has always been Divine being Alpha and Omega.
Sure...
Heb 4:15..."For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."
 
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