Jesus said... well does it matter what Jesus said?

[Henry]

Luke 22:24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest.

25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.

26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

Matthew 23: 8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a]

11The greatest among you will be your servant.

12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Jesus is talking and so shouldn't we listen?

He says "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. "

Notice that they call themselves benefactors, pretending to be a servant of the people when the are not truely a servant at all.

But Jesus tells us "YOU ARE NOT TO BE THAT WAY" what Way? Well, he says that the greatest should be like the youngest and the one that serves (a slave) who have no authority at all as the world sees authority. The leaders of the church are not to Lords that rule, but servants of the people.

Even Jesus says he came not to be served but to serve.

So, then what does all that mean? Aren't our church leaders servants of the people....not as the scripture would see it, perhaps in the same way as the world does the same as the kings of the gentiles with a man on top and all the others stacked under him.

Look at the next passage, where Jesus says NOT NOT NOT NOT is this a command I wonder? Of course it is, he is very clear DO NOT !!!

Do not what?

be called Rabbi
call any one Father
call any one teacher

And I would add for todays world pastor, or deacon or elder or what ever.

These where titles of the day and Jesus said NOT TO use them, rather he says that you are all brothers, the ONLY title that Jesus says we should be called is brother.

The church has taken this, the very words and commands of Jesus and tossed them aside for this man made "Church" of bricks and glass with it's men of possition. And that is why the church is in such a sad state of affairs, it has not obeyed its own founder and head.

The scripture knows nothing of the heirarchy of the church, nothing of the building and all the stuff that comes with it. ONLY the family of brothers and sisters sharing their lives together.

The church has left Jesus and prefered religon.

 

[thessalonian]

Luke 22:24 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest.

25Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors.

26But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

27For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves.

Matthew 23: 8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.

9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a]

11The greatest among you will be your servant.


12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Jesus is talking and so shouldn't we listen?

He says "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. "

Notice that they call themselves benefactors, pretending to be a servant of the people when the are not truely a servant at all.

But Jesus tells us "YOU ARE NOT TO BE THAT WAY" what Way? Well, he says that the greatest should be like the youngest and the one that serves (a slave) who have no authority at all as the world sees authority. The leaders of the church are not to Lords that rule, but servants of the people.

Even Jesus says he came not to be served but to serve.

So, then what does all that mean? Aren't our church leaders servants of the people....not as the scripture would see it, perhaps in the same way as the world does the same as the kings of the gentiles with a man on top and all the others stacked under him.

Look at the next passage, where Jesus says NOT NOT NOT NOT is this a command I wonder? Of course it is, he is very clear DO NOT !!!

Do not what?

be called Rabbi
call any one Father
call any one teacher

And I would add for todays world pastor, or deacon or elder or what ever.

These where titles of the day and Jesus said NOT TO use them, rather he says that you are all brothers, the ONLY title that Jesus says we should be called is brother.

The church has taken this, the very words and commands of Jesus and tossed them aside for this man made "Church" of bricks and glass with it's men of possition. And that is why the church is in such a sad state of affairs, it has not obeyed its own founder and head.

The scripture knows nothing of the heirarchy of the church, nothing of the building and all the stuff that comes with it. ONLY the family of brothers and sisters sharing their lives together.

The church has left Jesus and prefered religon.

You take things out of context Henry according to your own personal tradition. It's wrong to call someone father. How many times in scripture are we told to "honor your FATHER and Mother". Both Jesus and Paul call Abraham our FATHER. Paul even calls himself FATHER.

1 Cor 4:15
15: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became YOUR FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

I guess he violated Jesus command. No teachers? The book of Acts violates this one.

1: Now in the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers, Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyre'ne, Man'a-en a member of the court of Herod the tetrarch, and Saul.

I guess God couldn't avoid it. No you distort and take out of context the scritpures. The scribes and pharasees whom Jesus is directing the comments to see themselves at the teachers and fathers apart from God. They are the ultimate source of truth who Lord over the people. It is total nonsense that no one should be called bishop or elder or deacon. There is no violation of scripture except by hyperliteralists who make up their own story. These are your personal views and traditions Henry. Quite attributing them to God. They are traditions of a man.

blessings

 

[Vic C.]

Has anyone done a word search of the NT for the word father? I'd like to know if there are different Greek words for the word father, depending on context.

 

[kwag_myers]

Has anyone done a word search of the NT for the word father? I'd like to know if there are different Greek words for the word father, depending on context.

The only word used in the NT is pater {pat-ayr'}. There are variations of this (fatherless, father-in-law, etc.), but they all are variations of pater.

Henry, I agree that the current governing structure of today's churches is not scriptural. However, there are offices of authority, such as Bishop, aka Overseer (1 Timothy 3:1), Elder (1 Timothy 5:17), and Deacon (1 Timothy 3:10). In fact, the Strong's definition of Deacon is basically one who serves.

The Bible is very clear on two points, leaders must be servants (or have the heart to serve) (1 Timothy 3), and the church must submit to leadership (Hebrews 13:14; 1 Peter 5:5).

Also, the point made about "those who call themselves..." is a good one. Again, 1 Timothy is very clear on who and how leadership is to be set in place. Even today, in the All Saints Movement, we have people who just change their title from Pastor to Apostle in order to be fashionable.

 

[Heidi]

Has anyone done a word search of the NT for the word father? I'd like to know if there are different Greek words for the word father, depending on context.

Would people do a word search for the word "father" if the catholics had not disobeyed Jesus? Of course not. In that same passage, Jesus uses the word "Father" synonymously with our Father in heaven.

And this is where people simply don't believe the bible. If they have to redefine obvious words, this shows the desire to distort the bible. Therefore, if anyone finds a different meaning for the word "father", then they will have to apply that meaning to every instance of the word "father" in the bible and not only to one passage they want to distort. It's the same thing that URists want to do when they try to redefine the word "eternal." But that's unfortunately what people do when they don't like what the bible says. Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.

 

[Vic C.]

Heidi... two verses;

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Same (English) word... same meaning or different meaning?

 

[Heidi]

Heidi... two verses;

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

Same (English) word... same meaning or different meaning?

And what do you think Jesus means by our Father in heaven, Vic? Do you have any idea or are you completely in the dark about it? Do you think he means mother, dog, fish, or cousin? And that is again why Jesus says to come to him like little children who do not twist, distort or analyze. They simly understand and believe. And if more people read the bible that way, then word definitions would be as obvious as the nose on their faces and understanding would be right there with it. But if words like "father" begin to be redefined, then no one can have a clue what the bible is all about and might as well throw it away. Therefore, having to define "father" is ludicrous. But, if some people don't understand what a father is, then I guess they will have to spend a lifetime consulting textbooks. Jesus makes it crystal clear.

Sorry to be facetious, but again, when people don't like scripture, that is the only time they try to redefine basic words. The words "love" you described have the exact same meaning in both instances. Both quotes you gave use the word love to mean; things or people that someone is fond of, reveres or desires. The word; "love" means the exact same thing in both instances. Mt. 24:12 was describing a time when the love for God will grow cold.

 

[Heidi]

And I might add, if people don't know what Jesus is talking about when he says our Father in heaven, then how can they have a clue who God is? :o Therefore, they will not understand other scripture like; "Now this is eternal life; that they know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." If they don't know what a Father is, then they couldn't possibly understand what role God plays in our lives. Jesus specifically compares our earthly father to our heavenly Father in the passage where he tells us not to call anyone on earth "father." So if you don't know what "father" means, then how can you possibly understand the role God plays in your life? :o

 

[Imagican]

Jesus was NOT talking about using the word 'father' as in your paternal father, He is referring to calling anyone their Spiritual Father. isn't this obvious guys? Come on. There is ONLY one FATHER of ALL, and that is God. I don't indicate or mean that my paternal father is THE FATHER or ALL or the Father that I regard as my LORD, or my Spiritual Father. What He was warning us about is exactly what the RCC has incorporated into their 'tradition'. We were told specifically DON'T DO IT.

 

[Bubba]

Henry,
Several years ago our senior pastor and assistant pastor got into a squabble, and it got so bad, that the Committee on Ministry (Presbyterian Big Brothers) came in and told both pastors to leave. This left us with a committee to select another pastor and a committee to select an interim pastor. Well, in my denomination the pickings are slim for a halfway Biblically sound interim pastor, and we struggled for months to find one. In the meantime we began using our elders for the Sunday sermons and an amazing thing happen, they did a great job. Every Sunday we were getting a very mixed but good variety of sermons from all walks of life individuals who happen to be elders. We for 18 months didn’t have to pay the salary of two pastors and instead these monies went into missions. The C.O.M., after a year and a half came in and forced the session (board members) to select an interim pastor. Yet, I was able to first hand see what it may have been like in the first century church and believe someday, we may again have this model of the church out of necessity.
Beza (George)

 

[thessalonian]

Has anyone done a word search of the NT for the word father? I'd like to know if there are different Greek words for the word father, depending on context.

Would people do a word search for the word "father" if the catholics had not disobeyed Jesus? Of course not. In that same passage, Jesus uses the word "Father" synonymously with our Father in heaven.

Well Heidi, Paul violated it first.

1 Cor 4:15
15: For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became YOUR FATHER in Christ Jesus through the gospel.



Actually he calls Abraham our spiritual Father as well. I agree with your contesxt by the way. The Catholic Church does not violate the context in calling priests father.

So did Paul sin in calling himself the Corinthians father???

 

[thessalonian]

I find it humorous that you all ignored my post. Paul calls himself father, even in a spiritual sense, so if the passage in Matt is to be taken hyperliterally as Henry and some others are, then Paul is sinning and leading people astray with these passages:

Romans 4

16]
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants -- not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all,

1 Cor 4
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
[16] I urge you, then, be imitators of me


What? Paul is telling them to imitate him? Aren't they supposed to imitate Christ? I am being fascetious in all of this of course. Curious about your reactions though.



Blessings

 

[Heidi]

I find it humorous that you all ignored my post. Paul calls himself father, even in a spiritual sense, so if the passage in Matt is to be taken hyperliterally as Henry and some others are, then Paul is sinning and leading people astray with these passages:

Romans 4

16]
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his descendants -- not only to the adherents of the law but also to those who share the faith of Abraham, for he is the father of us all,

1 Cor 4
[15] For though you have countless guides in Christ, you do not have many fathers. For I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.
[16] I urge you, then, be imitators of me


What? Paul is telling them to imitate him? Aren't they supposed to imitate Christ? I am being fascetious in all of this of course. Curious about your reactions though.



Blessings

Paul said he was the father of the gospel, not the father from whom we were born! And that is precisely why Jesus made the correlation between our earthly father and our heavenly Father because we were born of both. Jesus is saying that once we become born again of the Spirit, our Spiritual Father replaces our earthly father in all born again believers. And that is why he told us not to call anyone on earth father because our new Father is God. we no longer belong to this world. But there are way too many people on this forum who don't understand that. So they try to change the word "father" into something else. This is bizarre.

I also want to add that jesus also said that once we become born again, our new family are Christians. And that is why when the disciples told him his mother and brothers were there to see him, he asked; "Who are my mother and who are my brothers" He then pointed to his followers and said; "These are my brothers, sisters, and mother."

Do you people not get it? We born again Christians are no longer of this world. Jesus said; "If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. As it is, I have chosen you out of the world and that is why the world hates you." Adn if you truly believed that, you would know why we are not to call anyone on earth; "father."

 

[thessalonian]

Paul said he was the father of the gospel, not the father from whom we were born!

Why do you change the words?

1 Corinthians, chapter 4 or I became YOUR FATHER in Christ Jesus THROUGH the gospel.


I don't think he is speaking about being a physical father. He also speaks of Abraham as their "father in faith". That is in a spiritual sense as he expressly states that Abrham was not the physical father of the gentiles. Your explanation is lacking.

I agree of course that we are no longer of this world but a part of the heavenly kingdom. Our brothers and sisters are those who are faithful to Christ both on this earth and in heaven above. This is exactly what Catholicism teaches.

Blessings

 

[Imagican]

As far as Abraham is concerned I believe that when he is referred to as a 'father' of us all, that is in reference to 'his seed'.


And something that we shouldn't forget. Paul was an apostle who's job it was to 'start' THE Church, (body of Christ). In this sense HE WAS a Father of 'Christianity'. NOT our Spiritual FATHER.

The Church had been started over three hundred years before the formation of the Catholic church and it beginning to teach it's own doctrine.

Paul and the other apostles were certainly placed in a completely different position of authority than that which is needed today. And further more, Paul NEVER stated to CALL him Father, he simply used this word as a reference of where their learning of the gospel 'came from'. This is quite obvious when he states that we are to follow HIS EXAMPLE of how to 'live for Christ'. NOT as each others Father, but as a servant to all.

 

[Heidi]

The catholics seem so interested in the law yet completely ignore many of Christ's words. He is their Lord. How on earth can they possibly justify ignoring his words; "no one is good but God alone" and "do not call anyone on earth "father..."? But they seem to think they know better than he does. They will find out when they die just what it costs them, even though they think that ignoring Christ will get them to heaven. But many people blaspheme Christ's words and don't think a thing of it. Therefore, if they think that salvation is an ongoing process, then they better repent and believe their Lord or they're up a creek without a paddle.

 

[Henry]

Thessalonian

14I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you, as my dear children. 15Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

Paul is telling them to imitate him as he imitates Jesus, which is said later. The term here for father is not the same context as what Jesus said, never the less even if it were, why take Pauls word over that of Jesus himself?

We must try to understand what Paul was saying in the light of what Jesus said not the other way around, we do not try to know what Jesus said by the words of Paul.

Notice that he says he will leave Tim behind to remind them of his way of life in Christ Jesus, and that it is the same as he teaches in the church everywhere.

You are not meaning to imply that this text somehow justifies calling an man Father? After all he does not say call me father paul does he. And nor do we ever find anyone doing that.

The context of this chapter and book for that matter is a reminder to the people of what Paul has taught them, and we know that Paul had an effection for the church as a father for his children.




kwag_myers

1 Peter 5 : 1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ's sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God's flock that is under your care, serving as overseers-not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock.

Notice that Paul counts himself as being an elder, interesting since is given the “office†of apostle (though that is not an office)

Some things to point out here, the word elder is used in the plural, as it is always used and we can say the church was lead by a plurality of elders because simply put that is the way the bible reads.

Ok, the word elder means literally the older one. The word shepherd is the same as pastor and the word word overseer is the same as bishop. These are all three offices of the church right?

No, and let me show you why that is.

Paul speaking to the elder, and telling the to ACT as shepherds and overseers. All three words are for the same man, not three dirrent men, not three different offices in the church government (an oxymoron)

The words are interchangle verbs, the bible does not know of the church offices, but rather the actions of the leaders. Keeping in mind that Jesus already warned us not to use titles in the first place, and to remember that we are all brothers.

Imagican

You are right he was taking about calling someone our spiritual father, but he said more then that he also say not to be called rabbi, or teacher. Both ware terms of higher office, and are wrong.


Beza

You were about as close any traditional church I have heard about has come to experiencing the early church practice.

All the time you were looking for an pastor, you must have learned that your true leaders where the mature men already there?

And to have really been a NT model the church building would have to go, along with sermons and you would have met in homes.

But never the less, I am glad that you had a taiste of this and know that there are MILLOINS doing it out of WANT not of need this very day and age.

:

 

[thessalonian]

As far as Abraham is concerned I believe that when he is referred to as a 'father' of us all, that is in reference to 'his seed'.


And something that we shouldn't forget. Paul was an apostle who's job it was to 'start' THE Church, (body of Christ). In this sense HE WAS a Father of 'Christianity'. NOT our Spiritual FATHER.

The Church had been started over three hundred years before the formation of the Catholic church and it beginning to teach it's own doctrine.

Paul and the other apostles were certainly placed in a completely different position of authority than that which is needed today. And further more, Paul NEVER stated to CALL him Father, he simply used this word as a reference of where their learning of the gospel 'came from'. This is quite obvious when he states that we are to follow HIS EXAMPLE of how to 'live for Christ'. NOT as each others Father, but as a servant to all.

Your obvuscations and handwaving in order to reconcile the dichotomy in your mind with a sledgehammer are duly noted. Hmmmmm. In Matt 23 Jesus told the Apostles to "call no man father". Were'nt they Apostles. Yet you are saying when he says "call no man father" they would say, well I am an Apostle so he obviously isn't talking about me. This is silly. If this hyperliteral rendering that heidi and others are using is to be believed then Paul should not be calling himself father, since he is a man and it says "call NO MAN father". Doesn't say, except for youself. And if he says he is their father it would seem it would be okay to acknowledge him as such.

 

[thessalonian]

Thessalonian


Paul is telling them to imitate him as he imitates Jesus, which is said later. The term here for father is not the same context as what Jesus said, never the less even if it were, why take Pauls word over that of Jesus himself?

I am well aware of this henry. A you Protestants take shots at Catholicism, not knowing the context in which we call priests father. It is not the same context as Matt 23:2 either. But of course you know much more about Catholicism than me and so have your cute little threads where you bash Catholicism based on opinions of scripture that you cannot hold to yourselves without obvuscating the passage. :

We must try to understand what Paul was saying in the light of what Jesus said not the other way around, we do not try to know what Jesus said by the words of Paul.

Duh. What's your point.

Notice that he says he will leave Tim behind to remind them of his way of life in Christ Jesus, and that it is the same as he teaches in the church everywhere.

Point?

You are not meaning to imply that this text somehow justifies calling an man Father? After all he does not say call me father paul does he. And nor do we ever find anyone doing that.

I've had protestants tell me that Paul was sinning in calling himself father. Now matt 23:2 says "call no man father". It doesn't say except for yourself so if the hyperliteral sense is to be taken then Paul would be violating it himself since he is a man. Correct?

The context of this chapter and book for that matter is a reminder to the people of what Paul has taught them, and we know that Paul had an effection for the church as a father for his children.

His children? Now he says he is their father and that they are his children. Perhaps they should get around the passage by calling him daddy. This call no man father arguement rarely comes up these days because so many Protestants have actually come to their senses about it's silliness.

Blessings

 

[thessalonian]

The catholics seem so interested in the law yet completely ignore many of Christ's words. He is their Lord. How on earth can they possibly justify ignoring his words; "no one is good but God alone" and "do not call anyone on earth "father..."? But they seem to think they know better than he does. They will find out when they die just what it costs them, even though they think that ignoring Christ will get them to heaven. But many people blaspheme Christ's words and don't think a thing of it. Therefore, if they think that salvation is an ongoing process, then they better repent and believe their Lord or they're up a creek without a paddle.

Heidi,

I noticed you ignored you previous post. Can you explain to me why you changed the words in 1 Cor 4:15? Damned to hell am I? You won't be at the pearly gates. I do pray you get beyond them someday. You speak as if you are so knowledgable about Catholicism. However did you get to be so smart. :