Jesus, the Word, and the Bible

[I_love_Springtime]

John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 clearly explain how the Word is God and became flesh.

How about the Scriptures? They bear witness of Jesus. They testify of Jesus.

John 5:39-40.

So when people say the Bible is the Word of God, I never quite agree. I agree the Bible bears witness to the Word of God, but I can't agree that the Bible and Jesus' whole body and being are the same exact thing.

 

[stovebolts]

John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 clearly explain how the Word is God and became flesh.

How about the Scriptures? They bear witness of Jesus. They testify of Jesus.

John 5:39-40.

So when people say the Bible is the Word of God, I never quite agree. I agree the Bible bears witness to the Word of God, but I can't agree that the Bible and Jesus' whole body and being are the same exact thing.

I dont think many would fully disagree with you, and I'm hoping your not looking for disagreement.

I mean. When Paul says, I, not the Lord.... I'm pretty sure that's Paul speaking of his own freewill through the Holy Spirit. Or what about Pharoah or Harod when they decreed to have all the Hebrew boys killed. That wasnt Jesus.

I'm pretty sure when people say what your referring to, they are not thinking of every word as Gods words, but rather, every word in the Bible was inspired (to be written by man) by God.

Cheers.

 

[Randy]

John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 clearly explain how the Word is God and became flesh.

How about the Scriptures? They bear witness of Jesus. They testify of Jesus.

John 5:39-40.

So when people say the Bible is the Word of God, I never quite agree. I agree the Bible bears witness to the Word of God, but I can't agree that the Bible and Jesus' whole body and being are the same exact thing.

Yet, you like the church, are referencing scripture in your claims. (smile) So do those words of man have such authority?
When the scribe writes, "thus says the Lord", I take it what follows is from above. Setting variances between the gospels aside when one quotes Jesus I see it as the word of the Lord. The Apostles teachings should be cohesive with Jesus's words in the Cardinal beliefs of the church. And acts is just that a accounting of what took place. Paul wrote in His letters with the wisdom God gave Him. Paul saw all the law as law and considered the law in judgments he made such as , Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain. And we use the NT as a guide as to which commandments, if broken, can lead to the 2nd death. As we are not free to sin.


On top of all that you have interpretation.
Do you think Jesus is a being or a word? Ref John 1
Do you think Jesus is still the word of Life?

 

[Razeontherock]

John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 clearly explain how the Word is God and became flesh.

How about the Scriptures? They bear witness of Jesus. They testify of Jesus.

John 5:39-40.

So when people say the Bible is the Word of God, I never quite agree. I agree the Bible bears witness to the Word of God, but I can't agree that the Bible and Jesus' whole body and being are the same exact thing.

This is an interesting relationship, worth exploring. I remember being asked about this in 1987, by a sincere believer who was confused about it. I remember not being satisfied with my best answer, even though he was ok with it.

I remember that this was before I had learned much about how our Canon came to be, or why the Gospels were ever written down in the first place. And just as importantly, why they WEREN'T written down for decades. And why that's all ok.

My biggest concern here is that statistics show College students leaving the Faith, with no difference between Bible Colleges or even Seminarians vs students at secular schools. What's wrong?!? Something is obviously very wrong. Devout believers actively pursuing their Faith should have a marked difference from casual Christians who are more interested in other things, and that difference should show up in such statistics.

The answer lies in not understanding what Scripture is, and having false beliefs about it. These false beliefs are usually subconscious rather than deliberate. They are insidious and have all the markings of the work of the enemy, just like tares sown among wheat.

Is the Bible Jesus? Lol no, at that level I would hope this is obvious to everyone. That's a good way of clarifying this, so I think you've started a very good thought here.

Did the Bible just drop out of the sky, in current form? Many people who abandon the Faith do so because of exactly this false idea, even though they've never considered it in these terms. (As an aside, this is a sharp contrast between Christianity and Islam, which DOES teach that their koran was delivered as-is)

And then when College students begin to discover details about manuscripts and the difficulties of trying to translate them before ever being grounded in how the Church gave us Scripture and not the other way around, their Faith collapses because it wasn't built on the Rock in the first place.

This is by no means an exhaustive list of the problems, just a brief reference to the type of thing that can go wrong.

The Church Is built upon the Rock, and is "the pillar and ground of the Truth." (KJV 1 Timothy 3:15)

What does that mean? And does it have anything to say pertaining to the OP here? I think it does. And it's good stuff!

Our Bible is not a science text book. Neither does it try to tell us everything. It focuses on God's relationship with man, and is a progressive revelation. Seeing it in that light removes a great many snares the enemy has set in the effort to destroy us.

Jesus IS the basis of our relationship with God, known as a Covenant, which itself is a pretty foreign concept to our society. Looking at what Scripture really is keeps our eyes on Jesus, which is perhaps the greatest single thing Scripture can do to help us ...

 

[Walpole]

John 1:1-3 and John 1:14 clearly explain how the Word is God and became flesh.

How about the Scriptures? They bear witness of Jesus. They testify of Jesus.

John 5:39-40.

So when people say the Bible is the Word of God, I never quite agree. I agree the Bible bears witness to the Word of God, but I can't agree that the Bible and Jesus' whole body and being are the same exact thing.

People often mistakenly conflate the Logos with the rhema.

 

[Razeontherock]

People often mistakenly conflate the Logos with the rhema.

Can you expound on your understanding of this distinction?

I remember my first exposure to Greek, around 1985, was these two words. It was popular at the time to claim that logos referred to God's written word, while rhema is His (current) spoken word.

While that concept has its useful application, it isn't what the language means. And I haven't been able to keep it straight :shock

 

[Randy]

This is an interesting relationship, worth exploring. I remember being asked about this in 1987, by a sincere believer who was confused about it. I remember not being satisfied with my best answer, even though he was ok with it.

I remember that this was before I had learned much about how our Canon came to be, or why the Gospels were ever written down in the first place. And just as importantly, why they WEREN'T written down for decades. And why that's all ok.

My biggest concern here is that statistics show College students leaving the Faith, with no difference between Bible Colleges or even Seminarians vs students at secular schools. What's wrong?!? Something is obviously very wrong. Devout believers actively pursuing their Faith should have a marked difference from casual Christians who are more interested in other things, and that difference should show up in such statistics.

The answer lies in not understanding what Scripture is, and having false beliefs about it. These false beliefs are usually subconscious rather than deliberate. They are insidious and have all the markings of the work of the enemy, just like tares sown among wheat.

Is the Bible Jesus? Lol no, at that level I would hope this is obvious to everyone. That's a good way of clarifying this, so I think you've started a very good thought here.

Did the Bible just drop out of the sky, in current form? Many people who abandon the Faith do so because of exactly this false idea, even though they've never considered it in these terms. (As an aside, this is a sharp contrast between Christianity and Islam, which DOES teach that their koran was delivered as-is)

And then when College students begin to discover details about manuscripts and the difficulties of trying to translate them before ever being grounded in how the Church gave us Scripture and not the other way around, their Faith collapses because it wasn't built on the Rock in the first place.

This is by no means an exhaustive list of the problems, just a brief reference to the type of thing that can go wrong.

The Church Is built upon the Rock, and is "the pillar and ground of the Truth." (KJV 1 Timothy 3:15)

What does that mean? And does it have anything to say pertaining to the OP here? I think it does. And it's good stuff!

Our Bible is not a science text book. Neither does it try to tell us everything. It focuses on God's relationship with man, and is a progressive revelation. Seeing it in that light removes a great many snares the enemy has set in the effort to destroy us.

Jesus IS the basis of our relationship with God, known as a Covenant, which itself is a pretty foreign concept to our society. Looking at what Scripture really is keeps our eyes on Jesus, which is perhaps the greatest single thing Scripture can do to help us ...

In the field of textual criticism you might want to check out youtube videos by Dr. Daniel Wallace. That's his field of expertise. He's a staunch defender of the faith but he truthfully states what he "observes" in variances in manuscripts. I don't like the KJV because it uses outdated terms.

Did the church select the cannon to use or did they recognize as cannon what was already being used? If it was determined a gospel wasn't written by who it claimed to be written by even if was orthodox in beliefs it was rejected.

There are 1000's of NT manuscripts that contain 400 to 500 hundred thousand variances yet not one variance takes a away from the cardinal beliefs of the church. A couple of older manuscripts had 616 as the number of the beast. Is the number of the beast in your faith statement? Dr. Wallace joked that 616 was the neighbor of the beast. A spelling difference would count as a variance. Lots of spelling variances. I can relate to spelling errors. Of course I know Jesus by the Spirit of Christ in me and such things can't sway my faith but it is a interesting subject.

 

[The Light]

The op is both right and wrong at the same time IMO. John does say the word became flesh but that does mean that reading it verbatim in Englash conveys the message's context as written in the original language. Many scholars have made the case that this passage was poetic and the usage of the English word "WORD", though gramatically correct in translating, actually betrays the meaning of the text that would be more accurate if the Greek 'logos' was translated as 'intent of thought o as purpose' as opposed to "word."

To summarize, the argument made is that the text is showing that God's original intent and thought behind creation was the Lord Jesus. Everything that exists and was made by the Father was for the purpose of Jesus the Annointed One.

 

[Walpole]

Can you expound on your understanding of this distinction?

I remember my first exposure to Greek, around 1985, was these two words. It was popular at the time to claim that logos referred to God's written word, while rhema is His (current) spoken word.

While that concept has its useful application, it isn't what the language means. And I haven't been able to keep it straight :shock

Cliff notes version here...

Remember the New Testament was influenced and written in the Hellenistic world. Thus it incorporates many philosophical terms to express truths of the faith. The distinction between logos and rhema is a good example. While both are translated as "word", their meaning is quite distinct from each other. The rhema are utterances or teachings which we compile and put to paper in sentences. Logos, by contrast, means both reason and word and thus means this "word" is intelligible, creative and able to communicate itself. In other words, it says that God is a God of reason and not a God of arbitrary and unrestrained will. God acts with logos and is thus Logos.

 

[Razeontherock]

Thank you Sir! Serves as a good refresher. Logos is quite a deep topic itself; I tend to keep that straight better than I do the correct distinction from rhema

 

[Walpole]

Thank you Sir! Serves as a good refresher. Logos is quite a deep topic itself; I tend to keep that straight better than I do the correct distinction from rhema

You are quite welcome.

It is important to always remember that as Christians, we believe God is a God of Logos, that is reason. Remembering this can help defend the faith against many errors.

 

[for_his_glory]

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

That light is Christ who came down to earth to seek and save the lost, Luke 19:10, as He spoke nothing more than what God gave Him to speak, John 12:49, 50.

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You will notice how I used scripture to depict that which was inspired by God to be written from those things He has already spoken and wants us to learn.

 

[Edward]

I pretty much believe that the word of God (the scriptures) are...a supernatural book. I believe it says it will wash you with the word...?

When we read it, the Lord speaks to us through it, and the more we read it, the more it becomes a part of us, and replaces the iniquity in our hearts with the knowledge and righteousness of God.

It prolly sounds stupid and I'll prolly get told I am wrong...but, it very well could be.
I can't count how many times, I have needed a question answered, and even prayed but got no answer, but then I crack open the word, and it opens to the page that answers my question...that's the Holy Spirit working, must be.
That book is no ordinary book.

 

[I_love_Springtime]

After writing this post, I feel like it's a matter of semantics. I'm not wanting to confuse anyone that the Bible is or is not the Word of God. I don't know why I created this post, other than to see what you guys thought. Thanks for your input, I think I need to not think so deeply about words. Forgive me if I offended anyone with the question, too. I just feel God leading me to see that this is not the most important issue in understanding salvation.

 

[Razeontherock]

Doug, no worries! You've started a good discussion. A lot of what happens is people discover what their own thoughts are by writing it down. Then by being exposed to what others think, we're nurtured. Perhaps God shows us something new in the process, and we grow?

Salvation is a mystery. Do we really understand it? Thankfully, our Salvation is not based on our own understanding

 

[for_his_glory]

After writing this post, I feel like it's a matter of semantics. I'm not wanting to confuse anyone that the Bible is or is not the Word of God. I don't know why I created this post, other than to see what you guys thought. Thanks for your input, I think I need to not think so deeply about words. Forgive me if I offended anyone with the question, too. I just feel God leading me to see that this is not the most important issue in understanding salvation.

You have not offended, but given knowledge and understanding. This is a good topic as the spoken word is the bread of life as we open the book to receive its nourishment of what has been written that was from the beginning.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I think it is as simple as the Word predicted Messiah and he showed up in the flesh. The Word points to the meaning of life and he is life.

 

[Tessa]

I agree with you DougK I believe the bible is the witness of God. And I agree with StoveBolts that every word is inspired by God

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

This is an interesting relationship, worth exploring. I remember being asked about this in 1987, by a sincere believer who was confused about it. I remember not being satisfied with my best answer, even though he was ok with it.

I remember that this was before I had learned much about how our Canon came to be, or why the Gospels were ever written down in the first place. And just as importantly, why they WEREN'T written down for decades. And why that's all ok.

My biggest concern here is that statistics show College students leaving the Faith, with no difference between Bible Colleges or even Seminarians vs students at secular schools. What's wrong?!? Something is obviously very wrong. Devout believers actively pursuing their Faith should have a marked difference from casual Christians who are more interested in other things, and that difference should show up in such statistics.

The answer lies in not understanding what Scripture is, and having false beliefs about it. These false beliefs are usually subconscious rather than deliberate. They are insidious and have all the markings of the work of the enemy, just like tares sown among wheat.

Is the Bible Jesus? Lol no, at that level I would hope this is obvious to everyone. That's a good way of clarifying this, so I think you've started a very good thought here.

Did the Bible just drop out of the sky, in current form? Many people who abandon the Faith do so because of exactly this false idea, even though they've never considered it in these terms. (As an aside, this is a sharp contrast between Christianity and Islam, which DOES teach that their koran was delivered as-is)

And then when College students begin to discover details about manuscripts and the difficulties of trying to translate them before ever being grounded in how the Church gave us Scripture and not the other way around, their Faith collapses because it wasn't built on the Rock in the first place.

This is by no means an exhaustive list of the problems, just a brief reference to the type of thing that can go wrong.

The Church Is built upon the Rock, and is "the pillar and ground of the Truth." (KJV 1 Timothy 3:15)

What does that mean? And does it have anything to say pertaining to the OP here? I think it does. And it's good stuff!

Our Bible is not a science text book. Neither does it try to tell us everything. It focuses on God's relationship with man, and is a progressive revelation. Seeing it in that light removes a great many snares the enemy has set in the effort to destroy us.

Jesus IS the basis of our relationship with God, known as a Covenant, which itself is a pretty foreign concept to our society. Looking at what Scripture really is keeps our eyes on Jesus, which is perhaps the greatest single thing Scripture can do to help us ...

How do you relate Jesus to God?
Is he God?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I pretty much believe that the word of God (the scriptures) are...a supernatural book. I believe it says it will wash you with the word...?

When we read it, the Lord speaks to us through it, and the more we read it, the more it becomes a part of us, and replaces the iniquity in our hearts with the knowledge and righteousness of God.

It prolly sounds stupid and I'll prolly get told I am wrong...but, it very well could be.
I can't count how many times, I have needed a question answered, and even prayed but got no answer, but then I crack open the word, and it opens to the page that answers my question...that's the Holy Spirit working, must be.
That book is no ordinary book.

The Bible is known as the Living Bible for good reason.