Jesus vs psychology

[Christ_empowered]

I had coffee with a friend today. She's in DBT, which I guess is the latest, greatest form of therapy (if you can afford it, that is). So, we were in the car about to go into dunkin donuts, and she told me that the less you judge someone, the less you'll be judged. I said "Judge not lest ye yourselves be judged." She rolled her eyes and said "well, its true from a psychological standpoint, too." I said "the 2 aren't mutually exclusive." We went in for coffee after that (had a lovely time, btw).

Now...sometimes, I think Mental Health, Inc. is sort of like a religion, and the professionals--from the psychiatrists on down to the counselors--are sort of like priests and high priests for this faith. Not that counseling doesn't help; it can. I take Rx meds and see a Born Again Christian counselor now and then. Its not ideal, but...hey, the Rx stuff works and the counselor is compassionate and seems to actually care, so that's cool.

But...I think the mental health stuff is only OK when and if it lines up with Scripture. That doesn't seem like a huge problem on the surface, but...I"m wondering. The last time I saw my pscychiatrist, he talked about God and said "don't you think we all look for and worship the same God?" and I tried to change the subject. When I told him how I was raised liberal Calvinist and I'm tempted to belive in total depravity, he seemed a little disturbed, maybe even offended, by the concept.

Ugh. Its just...the people I know who are deep in therapy are smart and they go to uber-liberal, inclusive churches. So, I'm thinking...what if therapy isn't just about addressing your problems, what if its really about a belief system?

Kinda rambling, but...curious.

 

[AngelJenny]

It is about a belief system. My doctor is so dumb. She thinks caffeine made me crazy. It doesn't. It just make you edgy.

I wonder what the morals are on prescribing drugs to re balance my brains chemicals, which they have yet to measure.

 

[reba]

This might be a topic for Chopper ..
My mom grew up in a time when it would have been sinful for a Christian (pastors wife no less) to admit, to what i will call clinical depression..
Looking back i believe she was.. ... Therapy in todays world is over done... We should have friends we can confide in ...
I believe in miracle healing.. yet i had surgery and Chemo..
We here in the USA are too quick to pop a pill .. want every thing solved NOW. It shows a real lack of personal responsibility
Just as the Chemo saved my live i hope pray the Meds you and others are on.. help you...
A diabetic may have to take meds all his life ... A bipolar person may have to take meds all their life..
I thank the Lord for the Chemo.. and for your meds...

 

[Obadiah]

This might be a topic for Chopper ..
My mom grew up in a time when it would have been sinful for a Christian (pastors wife no less) to admit, to what i will call clinical depression..
Looking back i believe she was.. ... Therapy in todays world is over done... We should have friends we can confide in ...
I believe in miracle healing.. yet i had surgery and Chemo..
We here in the USA are too quick to pop a pill .. want every thing solved NOW. It shows a real lack of personal responsibility
Just as the Chemo saved my live i hope pray the Meds you and others are on.. help you...
A diabetic may have to take meds all his life ... A bipolar person may have to take meds all their life..
I thank the Lord for the Chemo.. and for your meds...

Yep. I've seen and been a part of a real, verifiable miraculous healing as well as other types of miracles, so when I'm sick I usually ask God if He wants to heal me that way. Then God usually tells me to go take the pills that he had given people the knowledge to invent and produce to help me with my sickness.

 

[Christ_empowered]

yeah, I know genuinely mentally ill people need treatment...if it wasn't for my meds, especially the Abilify, I wouldn't be functioning whatsoever.

Thing is...well, with my friend...it bothers me because she --believes-- in Mental Health, Inc.'s dogma, you know? She does have problems, true, but I think repentance would do more to help her than all this (expensive) DBT she's into. But I can't say that to her. She pops in at liberal, Episcopalian churches now and then and that's her "faith." Thing is...there are lots of other people like her out there.

 

[Obadiah]

yeah, I know genuinely mentally ill people need treatment...if it wasn't for my meds, especially the Abilify, I wouldn't be functioning whatsoever.

Thing is...well, with my friend...it bothers me because she --believes-- in Mental Health, Inc.'s dogma, you know? She does have problems, true, but I think repentance would do more to help her than all this (expensive) DBT she's into. But I can't say that to her. She pops in at liberal, Episcopalian churches now and then and that's her "faith." Thing is...there are lots of other people like her out there.

This is true. Spiritual healing is just as important as healing of a chemical imbalance or of a broken bone or a headache! It all depends on the situation. If spiritual healing is what's needed, I really think all the drugs and secular counseling can do is mask the problem at best.

 

[jasonc]

This might be a topic for Chopper ..
My mom grew up in a time when it would have been sinful for a Christian (pastors wife no less) to admit, to what i will call clinical depression..
Looking back i believe she was.. ... Therapy in todays world is over done... We should have friends we can confide in ...
I believe in miracle healing.. yet i had surgery and Chemo..
We here in the USA are too quick to pop a pill .. want every thing solved NOW. It shows a real lack of personal responsibility
Just as the Chemo saved my live i hope pray the Meds you and others are on.. help you...
A diabetic may have to take meds all his life ... A bipolar person may have to take meds all their life..
I thank the Lord for the Chemo.. and for your meds...

Vets,do this.I'm part of a starting group.

 

[OzSpen]

I had coffee with a friend today. She's in DBT, which I guess is the latest, greatest form of therapy (if you can afford it, that is). So, we were in the car about to go into dunkin donuts, and she told me that the less you judge someone, the less you'll be judged. I said "Judge not lest ye yourselves be judged." She rolled her eyes and said "well, its true from a psychological standpoint, too." I said "the 2 aren't mutually exclusive." We went in for coffee after that (had a lovely time, btw).

Now...sometimes, I think Mental Health, Inc. is sort of like a religion, and the professionals--from the psychiatrists on down to the counselors--are sort of like priests and high priests for this faith. Not that counseling doesn't help; it can. I take Rx meds and see a Born Again Christian counselor now and then. Its not ideal, but...hey, the Rx stuff works and the counselor is compassionate and seems to actually care, so that's cool.

But...I think the mental health stuff is only OK when and if it lines up with Scripture. That doesn't seem like a huge problem on the surface, but...I"m wondering. The last time I saw my pscychiatrist, he talked about God and said "don't you think we all look for and worship the same God?" and I tried to change the subject. When I told him how I was raised liberal Calvinist and I'm tempted to belive in total depravity, he seemed a little disturbed, maybe even offended, by the concept.

Ugh. Its just...the people I know who are deep in therapy are smart and they go to uber-liberal, inclusive churches. So, I'm thinking...what if therapy isn't just about addressing your problems, what if its really about a belief system?

Kinda rambling, but...curious.

CE,

DBT is a cognitive-behavioural form of therapy for a specialised group. Before my retirement 5 years ago, I spent 34 years as a therapist, the last 17 years being full-time. I can assure you that psychological counselling comes from a worldview and it has infected Christian counselling.

I fell for it for many years until I realised I was accepting secular psychological principles over Scripture - because they 'worked'. That led me to reassess and I've written this brief article to express my movement away from the psychological approach: 'I was conned by Christian counselling'.

Oz

 

[Angel]

I took DBT. I have the book by the author who came up with the therapy. I can teach you it for free, though I can't post it on the forum for copyright reasons. But if you want to learn through pm or email that's cool.

Maybe we can analyze it from a christian perspective.

 

[Christ_empowered]

OK. Its easy to criticize Mental Health, Inc. and view yourself as a victim. But to realize that they create victims and I still have a lot of psychobabble thought patterns is...disturbing. I have just begun my Christian walk, and its...challenging, honestly.

Thanks for the article, OzSpen.

 

[OzSpen]

OK. Its easy to criticize Mental Health, Inc. and view yourself as a victim. But to realize that they create victims and I still have a lot of psychobabble thought patterns is...disturbing. I have just begun my Christian walk, and its...challenging, honestly.

Thanks for the article, OzSpen.

CE,

It actually is not easy to criticise mental health in Christian circles. Many are so sold on the psychological worldview and may be involved in therapy with a psychologist that it overpowers a Christian understanding of what is happening in people's lives.

I hope you appreciate what I was trying to achieve in my article, 'I was conned by Christian counselling' (counselling is the Aussie or British spelling)

Oz

 

[Christ_empowered]

I like the Szasz quote. Before I got saved, I really liked Szasz. Now...well, appreciate some of his insights, but I'm more or less done reading his work.

Answers to life's problems will not be found in psychology or worldly philosophy. That's what The Bible is for, at least for Christians (hopefully...). Personally, I don't much care for Nouethic Counseling (spelling?), either. I find it to be harsh and self-righteous, at least from my perspective.

I have found that pros in Mental Health, Inc. are all about Jesus...as long as its their all-inclusive, take your Prozac, do what we tell you Jesus. Just like anybody else with ideological commitments, they use Jesus to bolster their position. Its...scary.


Point is...I post on this stuff because Mental Health, Inc. is such a huge force in modern society. In my own life, I've experienced coercion as treatment, punishment as treatment, seen what amounts to insurance fraud (private, for profit hospitals+private practice counselors), slack prescribing of controlled substances (good insurance), on and on it goes. Makes me more skeptical of the whole industry, especially now that I'm Born Again, than many other Christians.

I do think severe forms of what is currently called "mental illness" should be treated with both available Rx treatments and other treatments. What's strange to me is...here, where I live (Southeastern US), private practice docs, counselors, therapists, etc. don't "do" severe mental illness. We (the severely, chronically mentally ill) don't generally have resources. Even when we (or the people who take care of us) do, we're often refused treatment, even by psychiatrists. Then the people who --do-- deal with SMI turn out to often be less-than-stellar, especially many of the counselors.
Weirdly enough, the community clinic psychiatrists I've dealt with seemed really passionate about their vocation; the counselors...not so much. I wonder sometimes if maybe, at least around here, those who can, do...those can't, counsel. Of course, my current counselor is awesome...but his job isn't centered on counseling so much as it is on administrative aspects of public mental health.

I've rambled. Point is...so much of psychology now strikes me as religious. It is, actually...mindfulness is the big one that's lifted out of Asian traditions. Psychology has some generally agreed upon values. Confession is a big part of treatment. Jung compared analysts to priests way back when, and...now, everybody's going to The Church of Psychology, even without stepping into a therapist or counselor's office. Self-help, groups, even TV shows and magazines and web-based "mental health screenings..." Mental Health, Inc. is becoming the new faith of the modern masses. I read somewhere...modern man does not feel the need for a Savior to forgive his sins; he feels a need for an analyst to resolve his issues. Something like that.

And yet...genuine, bona fide madness (I've been there) has to be dealt with, but...we (the Bipolar, Schizophrenic, etc. people out there) don't matter to most "professionals." The only pros who have ever shown any genuine interest in my well-being are committed to the recovery model and seem to actually (gasp) want to facilitate recovery and well-being, to whatever extent possible. Everybody else...they have the same morals as the rest of society, just more conservative, conventional, and (oddly enough...) often anti-intellectual.

I've rambled. Thanks for your posts.

 

[Angel]

The clinic I go to doesn't abuse or mistreat me.
They are caring and helpful.
Maybe you should move over here!

 

[OzSpen]

Answers to life's problems will not be found in psychology or worldly philosophy. That's what The Bible is for, at least for Christians (hopefully...). Personally, I don't much care for Nouethic Counseling (spelling?), either. I find it to be harsh and self-righteous, at least from my perspective.

Have you ever been to a nouthetic counsellor? How do you know it is 'harsh and self-righteous'?

If you could choose the ideal person and treatment model to assist you in your present situation with your current mental illness, who would you choose and which model? Are such people not available in your region?

Oz

 

[Christ_empowered]

I've skimmed over some Jay Adams' writings+case studies. I'm not terribly impressed.

My current counselor is a Born Again Christian. He got into counseling back when a Masters of Divinity w/psychology credits (M.Divinity w/ an emphasis on pastoral counseling) was sufficient for a job with state agencies.

He's the best counselor I've ever had. His insights into my problems are actually helpful. He is a little too focused on medication compliance for my liking, but...I see where he's coming from. Plus, once you're stable at this clinic, counseling is reduced significantly and the focus (for severe problems) is on med management.

My counselor a few years back was a minister and a counselor. He has masters in both psychology and the masters of divinity. Anyway, he says that meds are tools you use so your emotions and problems don't overwhelm you. I'm torn between that and the disease model, which of course holds that "Bipolar I w/psychotic features" is an actual biologically-rooted entity that responds to certain Rx treatments. Its interesting...I think the anti-psychiatry+patients' rights+"psychiatric survivors" groups have offered insights into "Schizophrenia," but "Bipolar I" still has a certain mystique (it shouldn't, btw).

Then again...my counselor a few years back was heavier on psychology than my current counselor, who is big on practical, helpful advice+insights to help me on my way towards recovery. A lot of times, I misperceive things because I was paranoid, depressed, manic, hypomanic...all over the map, for years following rounds 1+2 of heavy, involuntary shock treatments. By the grace of God, I've come out of all that, but...you spend 10+/- years in an shock-induced stupor, plus underlying problems, and...wow. Coming out of it is a huge blessing, but there is a certain amount of stress and uncertainty in reconnecting to reality as a lucid, reasonably intelligent human being on the road to normalcy.

So, I guess I'd say my current counselor is fairly close to ideal.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Christ Empowered,
I agree with your post no. 12.

From personal experience I can say that sometimes knowing Jesus just isn't enough. Some people will make you feel guilty that you even have a problem because knowing the Lord should be all-sufficient. Of course, this is not true. We still live in this world and we still have a body that sometimes does not work. Some people don't even understand that depression , for example, is a clinical condition and does not mean that you're "sad."

So when my VERY stressful situation arose, I tried going to a psychologist just to see if he could offer some tips on relieving the stress. What he told me was that I was too worried about my situation and that I should think more about myself. It went against everything I know and believe. So, after 4 visits, that was it.

Also, these days, sin is becoming a "disease." That's wrong too.
I read an article by Ozspen that he wrote which was very good.
Here's some of it:

1. The psychological society is leading to the psychological church.

The church is being seduced by departing from the fundamental truth of the gospel and what leads to Christian growth. It is using unproven and unscientific psychological opinions of secular people, in place of absolute confidence in the biblical truth of God. Theories of psychological counselling are becoming poison to the soul.

The church has bought into these myths:

• 
  a. Psychology is science rather than religion.

b. The best kind of counselling combines psychology and the Bible.

c. People who are experiencing mental-emotional-behavioural problems are mentally ill. They are supposedly psychologically sick. We take the line that a medical doctor treats the body, a psychologist treats the mind and emotions, and a Christian minister deals with strictly spiritual things.

d. Another myth: Psychotherapy has a high record of success. [14]

Christian psychologist, William Kirk Kilpatrick, concludes that, “True Christianity does not mix well with psychology. When you try to mix them, you often end up with a watered-down Christianity instead of a Christianized psychology. But the process is subtle and is rarely noticed.” [15]

AND:

8. The four temperaments & personality testing

Space doesn’t permit us to go into these, except to say that the four temperaments are based on an occult model. For a detailed assessment, see Martin & Deidre Bobgan, Four Temperaments, Astrology & Personality Testing. [33a]

9. New language

• disease for sin nature and bondage to lust,
• addiction — people don’t lust any more, they have an addiction,
• dysfunctional is a substitute for sin,
• self-actualisation is equated with sanctification,
• reprogramming in place of what the Bible terms “renewing the mind”

We are uneasy with sinners, salvation and sanctification so we say people hurt, have diseases, are traumatised, areaddicted and dysfunctional. In a victimised world, these words sound better than sinner, rebel and wicked.

Christian psychology is writing a different gospel. The Bible points me to the cross and says, “Stand there, or be lost.” [34]

Source: (S. Gear = Ozspen, 2011 https://spencer.gear.dyndns.org/2011/11/01/i-was-conned-by-christian-counselling-1-2/)

BTW, the article should be read by all interested.

I particularly like No. 9 - there is no more sin today, only disease and addiction!

But, of course, counselling is required in some cases. I also believe that the pills that some don't like taking, are the only remedy since they really work to alleviate many problems.

Wondering

 

[Malachi]

Now...sometimes, I think Mental Health, Inc. is sort of like a religion, and the professionals--from the psychiatrists on down to the counselors--are sort of like priests and high priests for this faith.

Your assessment is very perceptive. This secular humanistic *faith* excludes the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit and attempts to deal with the symptoms instead of the disease (which is spiritual). The concept of *sin* has been banished from humanism.

 

[Christ_empowered]

This is kinda complicated because...madness --happens-- . Is it "schizophrenia" ? "Bipolar" ? I dunno. Crazy...happens. Everywhere.

But is psychology the way to handle it? I'm beginning to doubt it. Besides, most mental health "professionals" have abandoned the genuinely sick amongst us...we/they aren't as lucrative as the worried well, walking wounded, etc.

Psychiatry...more complicated. I take Rx pills. Nothing fun or addictive these days, lol. For the foreseable future...I'm going to be on at least the Abilify, possibly all of them. Lucidity is now very, very precious to me, for obvious reasons. And yet...

...around here, there's shrinks who don't take even private insurance, much less medicare/medicaid. Cash only, baby. And they don't take seriously mentally ill people. My parents OK'd me visiting one for 1 session to get a 2nd opinion. He wouldn't take me...because I was hospitalized 7 years ago. He's not the only one.

My former shrink (she moved) told me "psychiatry reflects society." How true. There's nothing otherworldly about psychiatry. Your "illness" is defined by how your behavior and thoughts deviate from the accepted parameters of normal in your society. Some research I"ve read suggests that your diagnosis is also dependent upon: age, race, gender, social class, education level...

...and that's not even factoring in how your --shrink's-- characteristics (age, race, where they got their training, etc.) factors into things.

My former "treatment team" has labeled me "Schizophrenic." OK. My current "treatment providers" say some kinda hardcore "Bipolar I." The difference? Bipolar I w/psychotic features is a diagnosis often given to white people from "good" families. If I were a poor black woman, I'd be receiving high dose antipsychotic involuntarily, no counseling. I'm a white man whose people "take good care of him" and (thank God) are white collar, well educated, sophisticated, "comfortable," etc. So...I have "Bipolar I w/psychotic features," and I (voluntarily) take a new drug (Abilify) plus some cleaner, more tolerable mood drugs. I also get counseling, and I'm booked for 30 minute talking sessions with the psychiatrist. I also have input into what I take or don't take.

Ramble ramble...I've been blessed, but lots of people are victimized by Mental Health, Inc., and the victimization often falls upon those who are already vulnerable--the poor, the un- or under-employed, women, minorities, etc. I --was-- a victim of my own sins, a fallen world, and sadistic Mental health "professionals." God moved in my life and my parents' lives in a big, big way...I have problems that require meds for a while to come, but I have my raw material (writing skills, ability to learn new material, physical health, etc.) to work with, plus my "comfortable" people take care of me. I even get disability+medical coverage.

For a lot of "mental patients," at least around here...not so much. There's state subsidized poverty w/ no escape, unless you wanna move into a group home. The state mental hospital has been mostly shut down and sold to developers (it was on some prime real estate), and now everybody--even the Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity people--is treated on the "recovery model," which basically means...stabilize, move 'em out, continue treatment in the community. Saves money, can be more humane (not always...).

I dunno. Compared to the UK and parts of Europe, the severely mentally ill have it rough here. Its like...everybody's on meds, but if you're on --those-- meds and have --those-- problems and receive disability...your in the community, but not a part of it, seen but rarely heard.

But, hey...way back in the day, "crazy" people were left to wander around, fend for themselves. They were made fun of, all that. The history of the treatment of the mad is...horrifying, sometimes.

OK. I'm done now.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I don't know if I've said this before Christ_empowered, but thank you for sharing both your experiences and your insights. I don't think I'm alone, when I say this, but I for the most part have no frame of reference for a lot of what you've talked about and discussed, and instead just have been trusting the professionals, (though acknowledge there are many horrible studies in psychology in the past, still trust them to have better standards in their studies and also their treatments nowadays.)

With an unchallenged and largely untested or unable to test perspective, the bias for me is to trust psychologists. So thank you again.