Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

  • Looking to grow in the word of God more?

    See our Bible Studies and Devotionals sections in Christian Growth

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

  • Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?

    Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15

    https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/

Bible Study John 1.1

MisterE

Member
Without any introduction, here are the words the Apostle John chose to begin his gospel:

EN ARCHi HN hO LOGOS KAI hO LOGOS HN PROS TON QEON KAI QEOS HN hO LOGOS

Roughly translated: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.”

John realized the staggering implications of his opening verse, so much so, that he virtually repeats himself in the very next verse:

hOUTOS HN EN ARCHi PROS TON QEON

Translated: “This one was in the beginning with God.”

As you can see, this verse seems painfully redundant. But now the reader must stop. The perceptive reader of the first century most assuredly would be in total shock after only partially grasping the implications of this dynamic passage. For in less than fifteen words, the Apostle John completely redefines God.

With no introduction, with no “Get ready; this might be hard to understand,” the Apostle John thrusts his readers helplessly into the very being of God. However, no mortal can withstand such an exposure for too long, so John will leave this mystery as quick as he introduced it, almost without warning. But let’s stop to take a glimpse of this verse.

I want to take a look at some of the mind-boggling implications of these opening words by a brilliant theologian, John, who earlier in his life was, off all things, trying to eke out a living as a Galilean fisherman.

Let me state at this time that these words would surely be considered the highest form of blasphemy by any orthodox, first century Jew. You may recall that Jews are theologically Monotheists. That simply means that they believe that there is only one being/individual who alone is God. This was the most sacred of all Jewish doctrines.

And they held this view not without reason. Notice this passage in Deuteronomy 6:4:

“Listen, Israel: As for the Lord your God, the Lord is one.”

Well, at least that’s how most Bibles translate it and how most Jews understand it. But as you can see, there is nothing in this verse that helps you fully comprehend what the word “one” means. Now I’m not trying to pull a Bill Clinton here, but how we understand “one” is absolutely critical to how we understand God.

And shortly after we take a closer look at John 1:1, you will see why it would be considered blasphemous… and probably why John repeats himself in the next verse, verse 2. The idea seems to be something like, “That’s right, you understood what I just wrote in verse 1. In fact, just to show you I didn’t make a mistake, I’ll repeat it again in verse 2.”


Here is where I am headed: the belief in “one God” would have to be completely redefined, if not abandoned altogether, based on John 1:1.

Let’s look at these verses a little closer. (That’s a good idea for any verse of Scripture, I might add.)

John opens with a prepositional phrase:

John wrote: EN ARCHi “in the beginning”

To help us understand which “beginning” John refers to, notice what he writes in verse 3: “All things were created by him…”

Here we see that the Word created all things, so we have to go to a “beginning” that is PRIOR TO the creation of all things. In fact, that would be before the famous “beginning” that we read about on the first page of the bible (Genesis 1:1):

“In the beginning God created the heavens and earth.”

So, we might want to paraphrase so far what this verse implies. Give me a little leeway, but I’ll try to go behind the scenes and paraphrase John 1:1a in this manner:

“In the beginning, a beginning that precedes the creation of all things, the Word already was…”

Now, here is where John catches the readers off guard. The verb used here would cause the reader to wrinkle their eyebrows. The verb he uses is HN, which is the Imperfect Tense of EIMI, translated “was” in most bibles. But we need to be a little more specific, since the Greek reader would not have missed this.

The Imperfect Tense denotes action in progress PRIOR TO the point in time being discussed. What is the point in time under discussion: the beginning. What beginning? The beginning of the creation of all things (not just on earth but in heaven also, which would include angels). So, let’s state the implication very clearly here. First look again at the translation:

“In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God
and the Word was God.”

The implication: The Word was in existence PRIOR TO the beginning of the creation of all things!

Folks, you only have two types of beings/individuals: created ones and non-created ones. That exhausts all possible options (since a self-caused being is irrational).
 
more on John...

So, John, with one stroke of his pen, tells us who the Word (later defined as Jesus) was. Jesus is God! That “carpenter” was God?! A Jew would simply have called this statement blasphemous.


But John shows no mercy as he continues. Jesus is not the same as God? We know this because we are told that the Word (Jesus) was “with” God. John again is blatantly clear: Jesus is God since he existed prior to anyone or anything that was created, and only God existed before the first act of creation, but John also adds that Jesus was “with God.”


Well, the only way you can have Jesus as God, being WITH God, is to have two individuals who are both God. That way, you can have one WITH the other. (The word WITH, the Greek word PROS, means “in the very presence of.” So, when I say Jesus was WITH God, I mean Jesus was IN THE VERY PRESENCE OF GOD.)

Just in case I am not being crystal clear, maybe I should try another paraphrase of John 1:1:

“In the beginning, a beginning that precedes the creation of all things, the Word was already in existence, and hence, by virtue of existing PRIOR TO the creation of all things, this Word, known as Jesus, must of necessity be God, and not only that, but the Word (Jesus, who we now know is God) was WITH God, which would require there being TWO beings, since one is WITH or IN THE PRESENCE OF the other.”

Wow. All that and we really haven’t even started with John’s gospel. Now, I think you can see why a Jew would rip his clothes and cry “Blasphemy!”

To a Jew, no one existed prior to God. There is only one individual who is God, and that is the God of Israel, known as Jehovah, so the Jew would argue. For John to imply that Jesus existed PRIOR TO the creation of ALL THINGS is utter blasphemy. Be sure you get that! Jesus existed prior to PANTA (Greek), ALL THINGS.

We’re not through: or rather, John’s not through. Let’s keep these opening verses in front of us; the first three will do:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The Word was with God in the beginning. (Note the virtual repeat.)

All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.”

Sequentially, you have the following:


1. God eternally exists before anything is created
2. Jesus creates all things (hence, Jesus can not be created)
3. Jesus IS God and WITH/IN THE PRESENCE OF God

John is very clear. There can be no mistake as to whom Jesus is. He is none other than God, but since he is said to be WITH God, there must be more than one God! Right? The answer depends on how you define “one God.”

Let me quickly quote another passage that John later writes. I think the implications of the passage I am about to quote from John will give you much food for thought. It reads in the NET Bible (Jesus is praying to the Father about those who have and will believed in him):

17:22 The glory you gave to me I have given to them, that they may be ONE just as we are ONE 17:23 I in them and you in me— that they may be completely ONE…


Now, let me just say here that we can see that “one” does not mean “one numerically.” Jesus prays that the billion of believers may be “one.” And not only that, Jesus prays that the billions of believers will be one… JUST LIKE HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE. This statement is critical to understand.

To save some time for now, let me just boldly say that the idea of ONE denotes the idea of UNITY, functioning as ONE.

Hence, the idea of God being “one” has more the idea of God functioning as a Unit (or if I may be so crude, that God is ONE in the sense of UNITY, which is surely what Jesus is praying for us to be.)

That is why Jesus says “I do nothing by myself, but what the Father instructs me to do, that I do.” God the Father and God the Son function in complete unity. And in that sense, God is one. I realize this is awkward English, but it is not at all awkward Greek. Bear with me.


Finally, do not think of “God” as an individual, but as a Title. Rather, think of “God the Father” as an individual being, and think of “God the Son” as an individual being, each possessing the title, God.

Reread the previous paragraph a few times please. Don’t cry Blasphemy!
 
So that, when I talk about the Trinity, I say, “There is one Godhead, and within the Godhead, there are three distinct Beings: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Godhead possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature.”

This is the kind of article you really need to reread and reflect upon. Take time to read it through SLOWLY. It can be pretty intense.

For further consideration: The Greeks had a belief in what was known as the Pantheon. It was basically a belief in many gods (like Zeus, Apollo, etc.). But each god had different characteristics, different strengths. And these gods were often in disagreement with each other. They fought among themselves. Some were even born.


We call that belief today Polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism is the polar opposite of the Godhead, or Trinity. Within Polytheism, you have many gods of varying strengths and purposes, some who were once like you and me… mere mortals. And of course, Polytheism is fictitious. But within the Godhead, you have three Beings who each possess a nature with the exact same attributes and characteristics. In fact, Jesus could say, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” (That is, although they are different Beings, they are exactly equal in all respects.)

God the Father loves you with an infinite love. God the Son loves you with an infinite love. Therefore, one can not love more or less than the other. God the Father is all-knowing. God the Holy Spirit (and the Son) is all-knowing. Hence, within the Godhead, each member knows the exact same things. God the Son is holy; God the Holy Spirit is holy; they both possess the same holiness. (One is not more holy than the other.) And on and on we could go. But I think you get the idea of why the Godhead must function as unit, and therefore, can be viewed as “one.” Each member of the Godhead has a nature that is infinite, absolute, and unchangeable. They always operate as one, as a unit. You might say: God is one. Or, you might say: the Godhead is a unit, functioning in absolute unity.

(I also might add this. Any being who possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature must be given the title, God. Three such beings possess such a nature, and we give each one the title ‘God.’)
 
Finally, do not think of “God” as an individual, but as a Title. Rather, think of “God the Father” as an individual being, and think of “God the Son” as an individual being, each possessing the title, God.
But, if the Father and the Son are individual beings, then that is polytheism.

So that, when I talk about the Trinity, I say, “There is one Godhead, and within the Godhead, there are three distinct Beings: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Godhead possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature.”

This is the kind of article you really need to reread and reflect upon. Take time to read it through SLOWLY. It can be pretty intense.

For further consideration: The Greeks had a belief in what was known as the Pantheon. It was basically a belief in many gods (like Zeus, Apollo, etc.). But each god had different characteristics, different strengths. And these gods were often in disagreement with each other. They fought among themselves. Some were even born.


We call that belief today Polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism is the polar opposite of the Godhead, or Trinity. Within Polytheism, you have many gods of varying strengths and purposes, some who were once like you and me… mere mortals. And of course, Polytheism is fictitious. But within the Godhead, you have three Beings who each possess a nature with the exact same attributes and characteristics. In fact, Jesus could say, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” (That is, although they are different Beings, they are exactly equal in all respects.)



(I also might add this. Any being who possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature must be given the title, God. Three such beings possess such a nature, and we give each one the title ‘God.’)
Again, "three beings" is polytheism, or tritheism to be more precise. That is precisely why historical, orthodox definitions of the Trinity avoid stating that they are individual beings. There is only one God and God is a being. Therefore, God is one Being consisting of three distinct, coeternal, coequal Persons.
 
But, if the Father and the Son are individual beings, then that is polytheism.


Again, "three beings" is polytheism, or tritheism to be more precise. That is precisely why historical, orthodox definitions of the Trinity avoid stating that they are individual beings. There is only one God and God is a being. Therefore, God is one Being consisting of three distinct, coeternal, coequal Persons.
Okay, I wont use beings, I'll use your word Persons.
 
So that, when I talk about the Trinity, I say, “There is one Godhead, and within the Godhead, there are three distinct Beings: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Godhead possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature.”

This is the kind of article you really need to reread and reflect upon. Take time to read it through SLOWLY. It can be pretty intense.

For further consideration: The Greeks had a belief in what was known as the Pantheon. It was basically a belief in many gods (like Zeus, Apollo, etc.). But each god had different characteristics, different strengths. And these gods were often in disagreement with each other. They fought among themselves. Some were even born.


We call that belief today Polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism is the polar opposite of the Godhead, or Trinity. Within Polytheism, you have many gods of varying strengths and purposes, some who were once like you and me… mere mortals. And of course, Polytheism is fictitious. But within the Godhead, you have three Beings who each possess a nature with the exact same attributes and characteristics. In fact, Jesus could say, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” (That is, although they are different Beings, they are exactly equal in all respects.)

God the Father loves you with an infinite love. God the Son loves you with an infinite love. Therefore, one can not love more or less than the other. God the Father is all-knowing. God the Holy Spirit (and the Son) is all-knowing. Hence, within the Godhead, each member knows the exact same things. God the Son is holy; God the Holy Spirit is holy; they both possess the same holiness. (One is not more holy than the other.) And on and on we could go. But I think you get the idea of why the Godhead must function as unit, and therefore, can be viewed as “one.” Each member of the Godhead has a nature that is infinite, absolute, and unchangeable. They always operate as one, as a unit. You might say: God is one. Or, you might say: the Godhead is a unit, functioning in absolute unity.

(I also might add this. Any being who possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature must be given the title, God. Three such beings possess such a nature, and we give each one the title ‘God.’)
How is there a beginning before the beginning? I would argue that John is tying his opening words to the beginning of creation. When he says the Word was with God he's alluding to proverbs 8.
 
But, if the Father and the Son are individual beings, then that is polytheism.


Again, "three beings" is polytheism, or tritheism to be more precise. That is precisely why historical, orthodox definitions of the Trinity avoid stating that they are individual beings. There is only one God and God is a being. Therefore, God is one Being consisting of three distinct, coeternal, coequal Persons.
They do avoid stating that. However, their conclusion is illogical and impossible. I can state all day long that the sky is not blue. It doesn't even matter how many people I can convince to believe the sky isn't blue. It won't change the fact that the sky is blue. The doctrine is polytheism.
 
So that, when I talk about the Trinity, I say, “There is one Godhead, and within the Godhead, there are three distinct Beings: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Each member of the Godhead possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature.”

This is the kind of article you really need to reread and reflect upon. Take time to read it through SLOWLY. It can be pretty intense.

For further consideration: The Greeks had a belief in what was known as the Pantheon. It was basically a belief in many gods (like Zeus, Apollo, etc.). But each god had different characteristics, different strengths. And these gods were often in disagreement with each other. They fought among themselves. Some were even born.


We call that belief today Polytheism, the belief in many gods. Polytheism is the polar opposite of the Godhead, or Trinity. Within Polytheism, you have many gods of varying strengths and purposes, some who were once like you and me… mere mortals. And of course, Polytheism is fictitious. But within the Godhead, you have three Beings who each possess a nature with the exact same attributes and characteristics. In fact, Jesus could say, “If you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” (That is, although they are different Beings, they are exactly equal in all respects.)

God the Father loves you with an infinite love. God the Son loves you with an infinite love. Therefore, one can not love more or less than the other. God the Father is all-knowing. God the Holy Spirit (and the Son) is all-knowing. Hence, within the Godhead, each member knows the exact same things. God the Son is holy; God the Holy Spirit is holy; they both possess the same holiness. (One is not more holy than the other.) And on and on we could go. But I think you get the idea of why the Godhead must function as unit, and therefore, can be viewed as “one.” Each member of the Godhead has a nature that is infinite, absolute, and unchangeable. They always operate as one, as a unit. You might say: God is one. Or, you might say: the Godhead is a unit, functioning in absolute unity.

(I also might add this. Any being who possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature must be given the title, God. Three such beings possess such a nature, and we give each one the title ‘God.’)
Where would we find three eternal, infinite, unchanging beings?
 
They do avoid stating that. However, their conclusion is illogical and impossible.
Please show exactly how the doctrine of the Trinity is illogical and impossible. I'm looking for precise and concise theological and philosophical arguments and logical reasoning.

I can state all day long that the sky is not blue. It doesn't even matter how many people I can convince to believe the sky isn't blue. It won't change the fact that the sky is blue. The doctrine is polytheism.
No, it isn't, even if you state all day long that it is.
 
Please show exactly how the doctrine of the Trinity is illogical and impossible. I'm looking for precise and concise theological and philosophical arguments and logical reasoning.


No, it isn't, even if you state all day long that it is.
The words person and being are interchangeable. To say three persons are one person or being is illogical.

It is! I don't understand why people try to defend this.
 
Where would we find three eternal, infinite, unchanging beings?

God the Father is one. Jesus said that I and the Father are one. so the Son must be also, and this can be demonstrated to anyone's satisfaction. The Holy Spirit is the third. Belief in this doctrine determines one's orthodoxy. I will give you that name of a really good book that is written to show the deity (eternal, infinite, unchanging) of Christ. This is by far the best approach I have seen on the deity of Christ. The book is Putting Jesus in His Place.
 
The words person and being are interchangeable.
No, they're not, at least as the historical, orthodox definition of the Trinity is concerned. If you want to discuss the doctrine of the Trinity, then do so, but setting up straw man arguments is, by definition, poor reasoning.

To say three persons are one person or being is illogical.
Of course it is, which is precisely why it has never been defined that way. Again, straw man, which is illogical.

It is! I don't understand why people try to defend this.
Because they don't .
 
It's also worth pointing out that this is a Bible study on John 1:1, so, any discussion should revolved around that.
 
God the Father is one. Jesus said that I and the Father are one. so the Son must be also, and this can be demonstrated to anyone's satisfaction. The Holy Spirit is the third. Belief in this doctrine determines one's orthodoxy. I will give you that name of a really good book that is written to show the deity (eternal, infinite, unchanging) of Christ. This is by far the best approach I have seen on the deity of Christ. The book is Putting Jesus in His Place.
But Jesus did change. He was born as a baby. He grew, He died. All of that is change.

Jesus did say I and the Fathee are one. They are one in unity. Paul said that Jesus is the express image of the Father. Thus, if one saw Jesus they had seen the Father
 
But Jesus did change. He was born as a baby. He grew, He died. All of that is change.

Jesus did say I and the Fathee are one. They are one in unity. Paul said that Jesus is the express image of the Father. Thus, if one saw Jesus they had seen the Father
I don't have any problem with your post.
 
Where did I say that?
At the end of post 3 you wrote this.

"(I also might add this. Any being who possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature must be given the title, God. Three such beings possess such a nature, and we give each one the title ‘God.’)"

Did I misunderstand something?
 
At the end of post 3 you wrote this.

"(I also might add this. Any being who possesses an eternal, infinite, unchanging nature must be given the title, God. Three such beings possess such a nature, and we give each one the title ‘God.’)"

Did I misunderstand something?
I'm not sure. Christ's nature is that of deity. For example, if God did change he would be different from what he was before he changed. God does not change in that respect. For example, God promised Abraham the Promised Land. This was an unconditional promise. God can not arbitrarily change his mind on this promise. He is bound by his nature. we can change all the time, but not God. God can not change and become a liar; God can not lie due to his nature. I am now just rambling, sorry
 
I'm not sure. Christ's nature is that of deity. For example, if God did change he would be different from what he was before he changed. God does not change in that respect. For example, God promised Abraham the Promised Land. This was an unconditional promise. God can not arbitrarily change his mind on this promise. He is bound by his nature. we can change all the time, but not God. God can not change and become a liar; God can not lie due to his nature. I am now just rambling, sorry
I agree that God cannot change. But, Jesus did change. That begs the question, how is Jesus God?

The answer lie in the definition of the word God
 
Back
Top