John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

[SolaScriptura]

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (John's Gospel, Chapter 5)

There are some who believe, that the spiritual dead are so dead, (Total Depravity) that they cannot hear the Gospel Message. This passage in John shows that this is NOT what Jesus Christ taught.

The words in this passage are addressed by Jesus Christ, to the Jews who wanted to murder Him, for claiming that God was His “own Father”, and “ making Himself equal with God”. Note, it says, “ But Jesus answered them” (v.17), and “Then Jesus answered and said to them” (v.19); “I say to you” (v.24); “ I say these things that you may be saved” (v.34), etc.

Firstly, these words are not spoken to “believers”, but to the Jews who wanted to murder the Lord.

Secondly, here Jesus tells these same Jews,

“Most assuredly, I say to YOU, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (v.24)

“Most assuredly, I say to YOU, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” (25)

“but I say these things that YOU may be saved.” (34)

“YOU search the Scriptures, for in them you think YOU have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But YOU are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (39-40)

These words are NOT addressed to “the elect”, but to the UNSAVED Jews, who were 100% AGAINST Jesus Christ, and conspired with the authorities to have Jesus MURDERED! YET, it is to THESE same Jews, that Jesus speaks this words. IF these same Jews were to HEAR His Words and BELIEVE in the Gospel Message that He was preaching, THEY could be saved! The lost CAN hear the Gospel Message for their salvation, and are NOT dead to this, as some teach! Jesus even tells these Jews, “but I say these things that YOU may be saved.”. Yes, the very Jews who sought Jesus' death, were the ones that Jews wanted to believe and get saved! No amount of twisting of these words can change the FACT that Jesus also, not only died for these Jews, but also wanted them saved! Even though Jesus here preaches to THEM, they were “UNWILLING” to accept what Jesus was saying, so that they could get saved!

This IS exactly what Jesus means when He said, “For God SO LOVES the entire human race”, because it is His desire that NONE are lost! It is some with their “theological” nonsense who think that they know better than God Almighty, and argue against the Words of God!

 

[smaller]

There is a very basic mistake in your analysis. For example, your claim that Jesus was not speaking to believers, or that Jesus was only speaking to Jews.

There are more interesting overarching facts that come into play whenever God Speaks.

The first principle is that man shall live by "every word" of God, stated by Jesus in Matt 4:4 and Luke 4:4, which is a basic take off of an old testament Word of God in Deut. Soooo, whatever God speaks, He speaks to ALL of us, every last one. This basic fact totally eliminates a lot of false doctrines about the O.T. not being applicable or positions that make God's Words only applicable for a certain historical point in time. None of these things are true.

Another of these principles is in Mark 4:15, which essentially means that mankind is not alone between our own 2 ears. Just as Satan entered Peter to speak and Satan entered Judas to betray, our own minds are often subject to this same evil, which is courtesy of the TEMPTER

and

IF you think about it, this also makes every damnation, wrath and all the bads Words of God applicable when spoken to our own face, because you see, "me" or "you" is not just and only that. Mark 4:15 is real for all

You maybe need a rework of everything you thought you knew, starting with your own self, which, if you see it properly, you may even come to HATE, as Jesus said you should, in Luke 14:26 for example

Not that I'm expecting any of that will happen

Entirely God's Call

 

[JLB]

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.”18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His own Father, making Himself equal with God. 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 33 You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 34 Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 35 He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 36 But I have a greater witness than John’s; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish—the very works that I do—bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (John's Gospel, Chapter 5)

There are some who believe, that the spiritual dead are so dead, (Total Depravity) that they cannot hear the Gospel Message. This passage in John shows that this is NOT what Jesus Christ taught.

The words in this passage are addressed by Jesus Christ, to the Jews who wanted to murder Him, for claiming that God was His “own Father”, and “ making Himself equal with God”. Note, it says, “ But Jesus answered them” (v.17), and “Then Jesus answered and said to them” (v.19); “I say to you” (v.24); “ I say these things that you may be saved” (v.34), etc.

Firstly, these words are not spoken to “believers”, but to the Jews who wanted to murder the Lord.

Secondly, here Jesus tells these same Jews,

“Most assuredly, I say to YOU, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life” (v.24)

“Most assuredly, I say to YOU, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.” (25)

“but I say these things that YOU may be saved.” (34)

“YOU search the Scriptures, for in them you think YOU have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But YOU are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.” (39-40)

These words are NOT addressed to “the elect”, but to the UNSAVED Jews, who were 100% AGAINST Jesus Christ, and conspired with the authorities to have Jesus MURDERED! YET, it is to THESE same Jews, that Jesus speaks this words. IF these same Jews were to HEAR His Words and BELIEVE in the Gospel Message that He was preaching, THEY could be saved! The lost CAN hear the Gospel Message for their salvation, and are NOT dead to this, as some teach! Jesus even tells these Jews, “but I say these things that YOU may be saved.”. Yes, the very Jews who sought Jesus' death, were the ones that Jews wanted to believe and get saved! No amount of twisting of these words can change the FACT that Jesus also, not only died for these Jews, but also wanted them saved! Even though Jesus here preaches to THEM, they were “UNWILLING” to accept what Jesus was saying, so that they could get saved!

This IS exactly what Jesus means when He said, “For God SO LOVES the entire human race”, because it is His desire that NONE are lost! It is some with their “theological” nonsense who think that they know better than God Almighty, and argue against the Words of God!

Amen. Good word.






JLB

 

[JLB]

There is a very basic mistake in your analysis. For example, your claim that Jesus was not speaking to believers, or that Jesus was only speaking to Jews.

There are more interesting overarching facts that come into play whenever God Speaks.

The first principle is that man shall live by "every word" of God, stated by Jesus in Matt 4:4 and Luke 4:4, which is a basic take off of an old testament Word of God in Deut. Soooo, whatever God speaks, He speaks to ALL of us, every last one. This basic fact totally eliminates a lot of false doctrines about the O.T. not being applicable or positions that make God's Words only applicable for a certain historical point in time. None of these things are true.

Another of these principles is in Mark 4:15, which essentially means that mankind is not alone between our own 2 ears. Just as Satan entered Peter to speak and Satan entered Judas to betray, our own minds are often subject to this same evil, which is courtesy of the TEMPTER

and

IF you think about it, this also makes every damnation, wrath and all the bads Words of God applicable when spoken to our own face, because you see, "me" or "you" is not just and only that. Mark 4:15 is real for all

You maybe need a rework of everything you thought you knew, starting with your own self, which, if you see it properly, you may even come to HATE, as Jesus said you should, in Luke 14:26 for example

Not that I'm expecting any of that will happen

Entirely God's Call

Jesus Christ, the Lord God, stated these words —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?








JLB

 

[SolaScriptura]

There is a very basic mistake in your analysis. For example, your claim that Jesus was not speaking to believers, or that Jesus was only speaking to Jews.

There are more interesting overarching facts that come into play whenever God Speaks.

The first principle is that man shall live by "every word" of God, stated by Jesus in Matt 4:4 and Luke 4:4, which is a basic take off of an old testament Word of God in Deut. Soooo, whatever God speaks, He speaks to ALL of us, every last one. This basic fact totally eliminates a lot of false doctrines about the O.T. not being applicable or positions that make God's Words only applicable for a certain historical point in time. None of these things are true.

Another of these principles is in Mark 4:15, which essentially means that mankind is not alone between our own 2 ears. Just as Satan entered Peter to speak and Satan entered Judas to betray, our own minds are often subject to this same evil, which is courtesy of the TEMPTER

and

IF you think about it, this also makes every damnation, wrath and all the bads Words of God applicable when spoken to our own face, because you see, "me" or "you" is not just and only that. Mark 4:15 is real for all

You maybe need a rework of everything you thought you knew, starting with your own self, which, if you see it properly, you may even come to HATE, as Jesus said you should, in Luke 14:26 for example

Not that I'm expecting any of that will happen

Entirely God's Call

none of what you say here in any way disproves what I have shown in the OP. From John chapter 5, show that Jesus did not address the Jews who wanted to murder them, and offered them salvation.

 

[SolaScriptura]

Jesus Christ, the Lord God, stated these words —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?








JLB

the Reformed/Calvinist teach that the "whosoever" and "world" refers only to the "elect", those God has already chosen for salvation. This is completely against the entire teachings of the Holy Bible. John 3:15-18 shows that this theory is without any Bible foundation, and the cunning of the devil.

 

[smaller]

Jesus Christ, the Lord God, stated these words —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?



JLB

A nice conundrum, just for you.

If a liar, like, say, oh, the DEVIL, says "I believe" is the DEVIL telling the truth?

See John 8:44 for baseline reference

 

[smaller]

none of what you say here in any way disproves what I have shown in the OP. From John chapter 5, show that Jesus did not address the Jews who wanted to murder them, and offered them salvation.

And I'm afraid you missed the point entirely, which is not unusual

The devils are totally depraved, not mankind

People naturally tend to get a little mankind centric when reading the scriptures because none of us can actually "see" the other parties, physically. And this is just a bad foundation to see from

All have sin. Romans 3:9

Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

What party is totally depraved in this picture? Should be entirely obvious, even if unseen

 

[SolaScriptura]

And I'm afraid you missed the point entirely, which is not unusual

The devils are totally depraved, not mankind

People naturally tend to get a little mankind centric when reading the scriptures because none of us can actually "see" the other parties, physically. And this is just a bad foundation to see from

All have sin. Romans 3:9

Sin is of the devil. 1 John 3:8

What party is totally depraved in this picture? Should be entirely obvious, even if unseen

do you know what the term Total Depravity means?

 

[JLB]

If a liar, like, say, oh, the DEVIL, says "I believe" is the DEVIL telling the truth?

We must understand what the biblical word “believe” means to the Author.

Believe does carry the meaning of obey. Believing without obeying is what I call “demonic believing”.


You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! James 2:19


The contextual point James is making here, is about the principle of faith, and how demons believe there is a God, but they continue to obey Satan; like some Christians.


Example of believe and obey used interchangeably in scripture:


He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NKJV


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36 NASB


Unbelief = Disobedience


Only God knows, if a person, such as the Devil is lying, which is why He alone is Judge; and to Him we must give account.


Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Hebrews 4:11-13






JLB

 

[JLB]

A nice conundrum, just for you.

If a liar, like, say, oh, the DEVIL, says "I believe" is the DEVIL telling the truth?

See John 8:44 for baseline reference

Jesus Christ, the Lord God, stated these words —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?





JLB

 

[smaller]

do you know what the term Total Depravity means?

And you would consider the devil, Satan, totally depraved?

I could care less that Calvin couldn't make the distinction

 

[smaller]

Jesus Christ, the Lord God, stated these words —


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?

JLB

Well, JLB, I love your setup questions, but rather than letting you hunt and corner I rather look for agreement

So, you'd agree that devils, even if saying they believe, actually don't and are therefore "EXCLUDED?"

See if you can make it that far, together

 

[JLB]

Well, JLB, I love your setup questions, but rather than letting you hunt and corner I rather look for agreement

So, you'd agree that devils, even if saying they believe, actually don't and are therefore "EXCLUDED?"

See if you can make it that far, together

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17

• whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?



Let me know when you are able to answer.




JLB

 

[Quantrill]

Well, JLB, I love your setup questions, but rather than letting you hunt and corner I rather look for agreement

So, you'd agree that devils, even if saying they believe, actually don't and are therefore "EXCLUDED?"

See if you can make it that far, together

Salvation is not offered to satan or his angels. Only to mankind. All angels and demons believe. It doesn't matter. The believing angels and demons who follow satan are doomed to eternal death in the lake of fire.

Have you ever noticed that none of satan's angels, or demons, not even satan himself, ever curse or badmouth God?

They know Him. They know better. But no salvation is offered them. Their dye is cast.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

They knew not Jesus because they know not God who gave Jesus what to speak and to do while He was here on earth.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Those who do not believe have already condemned themselves as their judgement has already come upon themselves by their unbelief and are already dead having no life in them.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[jasonc]

limited atonement isn't the concept of total depravity ,y'all are debating the later while the statement by verses is against limited atonement


I'm neither side but even Jacobus Arminisn bought into total depravity .

if people by nature were good ,we wouldn't need to lock churches ,arm members ,carry a weapon ,arm teachers ,and lock our doors.

 

[for_his_glory]

A nice conundrum, just for you.

If a liar, like, say, oh, the DEVIL, says "I believe" is the DEVIL telling the truth?

See John 8:44 for baseline reference

2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Those who wanted to silence Jesus by death where the Pharisee's of the Sanhedrin who plotted the death of Christ. If they would have known Christ then They would have known the Father for God gave Jesus what to speak and do while here on earth. They were already dead inside as there was no Spiritual life in them. The same throughout all the generations until the day of Christ return as they have sealed their fate.

 

[for_his_glory]

The devils are totally depraved, not mankind

Why do you think mankind is not depraved when all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord as each one of us have been born with the sin nature from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve who were the first to be deceived by Satan. Who is it that tempts us and is our great adversary that works through others of unbelief.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here is the depravity of mankind that we all walked in at one time.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[for_his_glory]

limited atonement isn't the concept of total depravity ,y'all are debating the later while the statement by verses is against limited atonement


I'm neither side but even Jacobus Arminisn bought into total depravity .

if people by nature were good ,we wouldn't need to lock churches ,arm members ,carry a weapon ,arm teachers ,and lock our doors.

I will add, if all people were good then there would be no need of a Savior. This world (people) are waxing worse and worse because of the evil in their hearts.