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John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

jasonc

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I will add, if all people were good then there would be no need of a Savior. This world (people) are waxing worse and worse because of the evil in their hearts.
the world has always been evil.

in Paul's day ,if his dad didn't want him as infant he simply told his wife don't breastfeed him,and Paul died in days they threw babies in the trash ,the church saved babies in those days

nothing new ,genocide ,and gay rights ,incest not new
 
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the world has always been evil.

in Paul's day ,if his dad didn't want him as infant he simply told his wife don't breastfeed him,and Paul died in days they threw babies in the trash ,the church saved babies in those days

nothing new ,genocide ,and gay rights ,incest not new

And the world still doesnt seem to learn from history. I mean thats what history is there for right?, no matter how horrific and tragic past events have been they need to be known to learn from so some things don happen again, i mean the world should learn from the past its wrongs and grow on it.
 
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Quantrill

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limited atonement isn't the concept of total depravity ,y'all are debating the later while the statement by verses is against limited atonement


I'm neither side but even Jacobus Arminisn bought into total depravity .

if people by nature were good ,we wouldn't need to lock churches ,arm members ,carry a weapon ,arm teachers ,and lock our doors.

I agree. I believe the title of this thread does not reflect the opening post of this thread by SolaScriptura.

But all are arguing consistantly with the opening post.

I see nothing in (John 5) which takes away from the doctrine of 'total depravity'.

Quantrill
 

JLB

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I see nothing in (John 5) which takes away from the doctrine of 'total depravity'.

Quantrill

But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 5:38-40


The Lord requires that we come to Him, and believe, that we may have eternal life?


Total Depravity doctrine seems to teach mankind is too depraved and incapable of coming to Christ.






JLB
 

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All angels and demons believe. It doesn't matter. The believing angels and demons who follow satan are doomed to eternal death in the lake of fire.

Quantrill
Devils are technically angels, angel meaning "messenger"

They happen to be wicked or evil messengers

The notions that these are fallen as in once holy then gone bad is a false notion that doesn't actually exist in the scriptures and is directly in contradiction with Jesus' Statement that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning in John 8:44

As to their so called belief, devils that is, I posed this question earlier:

If the devil, who we know is a liar, says "I believe," is that the truth?

Think carefully before sticking both feet into a conundrum
 

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Why do you think mankind is not depraved when all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord as each one of us have been born with the sin nature from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve who were the first to be deceived by Satan. Who is it that tempts us and is our great adversary that works through others of unbelief.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jeremiah 17:10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Here is the depravity of mankind that we all walked in at one time.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
All great scriptures and I accept all of them as truthful

What you might consider sometime are these:

Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

Satan enters the hearts of mankind and SINS in them via theft of Word, Mark 4:15

Mark 4:15 is what happened to Adam, God's son

Now, in these very truthful scriptures, can you see who is really depraved?

After all, the heart is deceitfully wicked, above "all things"

Is mankind more deceitful than Satan? Or is Satan within mankind, making that statement true, because of the existence of temptations within ALL?

You should measure these matters carefully and if you did, you may come to the same very logical conclusion, that Satan in mankind is totally depraved

Seeing this allows conformance to 2 Cor 5:19, among others, such as Romans 13:8-10
 

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2Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Those who wanted to silence Jesus by death where the Pharisee's of the Sanhedrin who plotted the death of Christ. If they would have known Christ then They would have known the Father for God gave Jesus what to speak and do while here on earth. They were already dead inside as there was no Spiritual life in them. The same throughout all the generations until the day of Christ return as they have sealed their fate.
Jesus spoke to children of the devil in the the religious hierarchy, and even in His Own disciples

Why do you only hear Jesus speaking to people when it's so entirely obvious and transparent that is not the case?
 

eddif

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I know I sound like a skipping section on a Vinland record.
Genesis 6:5 kjv
5. And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart wasonly evil continually.

This was total depravity then.

God’s first thought was to do away with all humanity. He did destroy all it 8 souls.

Depravity today is not total. Depraved / terrible yes. Total no. There are people who believe that Jesus died for sin. The shedding of blood is necessary for forgiveness. Jesus accomplished the possibility for eternal life. The flood just removed total depravity and allowed life for mankind to continue.

Can I say different covenants?
But
The first covenant required death.
Jesus supplied death and shedding of blood for the kingdom covenant.

Calvin and / or his followers may have made mistakes in importing OT conditions into the NT time. Were they totally depraved because of their error? IMHO no. Does the error need to be pointed out? Yes.

The letters to the churches found good and bad in most churches.
I don’t wish to stone Calvin or Calvinists. Or maybe I do not wish to judge them before the day of judgement,

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 

Fastfredy0

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Definition from Gotquestions.org
Because the name “total depravity” can cause people to have wrong ideas about what is meant, some people prefer to use terms like “total inability,” “righteous incapability,” “radical corruption” or even “moral inability [to come to God to be saved]. ” Total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do.

Because of man’s depravity the work of salvation—both process and result—is a gift from beginning to end. The will of the unsaved is controlled by his depravity such that he is unable to contribute anything; he must simply receive life as a gift from God. (Arminians believe the source of faith for salvation is within man)

TOTAL DEPRAVITY VERSES
  • Genesis 6:5
  • Genesis 8:21b for the intent (strong inclination, desire) of man’s heart is wicked from his youth;
  • Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.
  • Psalm 14:1
  • Psalm 58:3 The ungodly are perverse and estranged from the womb; they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. (Isaiah 48:8 speaks of Israel being born a transgressor at birth)
  • Jeremiah 13:23 “Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? (No!) Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.
  • Jeremiah 17:9
  • Isaiah 53:6
  • Isaiah 64:6
  • Matthew 7:18
  • Matthew 12:34 speaks.”
  • Matthew 19:25-26
  • John 1:4
  • John 3:3 “
  • John 3:20
  • John 8:43
  • John 12:39-40
  • John 3:20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light
  • John 6:44a
  • John 8:34
  • John 8:43
  • John 14:17a
  • Romans 1:18
  • Romans 3:10-18 “None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
  • Romans 3:12
  • Romans 5:6
  • Romans 5:12
  • Romans 5:18
  • Romans 6:16
  • Romans 7:14
  • Romans 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot perform it. [I have the intention and urge to do what is right, but no power to carry it out.]
  • Romans 8:5 For those who are according to the flesh and are controlled by its unholy desires set their minds on and pursue those things which gratify the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit and are controlled by the desires of the Spirit set their minds on and seek those things which gratify the [Holy] Spirit. … 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. – faith is pleasing to God and part of God’s law, thus since of the flesh cannot please God, they cannot generate faith of themselves 8 So then those who are living the life of the flesh [catering to the appetites and impulses of their carnal nature] cannot please or satisfy God, or be acceptable to Him.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:18
  • 1 Corinthians 2:14 The natural [unbeliever] person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
  • 1 Corinthians 15:20
  • 1 Corinthians 15:45
  • 2 Corinthians 4:3
  • Galatians 5:19
  • Ephesians 2:2
  • Colossians 2:13
  • Ephesians 4:18
  • Titus 1:15
  • 2 Peter 2:19
  • 1 John 1:8
There are no verses saying man is not depraved. People use verses like "come to me" and assume they are the CAUSE of their coming and therefore some are not depraved. To overcome Total Depravity the theory of PREVENIENT GRACE was postulated.
Simply put, prevenient grace is the grace of God given to individuals that releases them from their bondage to sin [TOTAL DEPRAVITY] and enables them to come to Christ in faith but does not guarantee that the sinner will actually do so. Thus, the efficacy of the enabling grace of God is determined not by God but by man. Gotquestions.org

Aside: It would be much more efficient if the author's of a thread would define their terms.
 

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I will add, if all people were good then there would be no need of a Savior. This world (people) are waxing worse and worse because of the evil in their hearts.
I gave a "love" rating to your post. OTOH, the world has always been evil from the days of Noah until now.
 

jaybo

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Jesus spoke to children of the devil in the the religious hierarchy, and even in His Own disciples

Why do you only hear Jesus speaking to people when it's so entirely obvious and transparent that is not the case?
So whom/what else does Jesus speak to? Dogs, horses, birds..?
 

JLB

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Likewise what?


You refuse to answer my question.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. John 3:16-17


  • whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


Who is excluded from “whoever“ believes?



My answer is: no one in the world is excluded.



What is your answer?






JLB
 

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Romans 7:14 We know that the Law is spiritual, but I am a creature of the flesh [worldly, self-reliant—carnal and unspiritual], sold into slavery to sin [and serving under its control -total depravity]. 15 For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled and bewildered by them]. I do not practice what I want to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate [total depravity - and yielding to my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. 16 Now if I habitually do what I do not want to do [total depravity], [that means] I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (morally excellent). 17 So now [if that is the case, then] it is no longer I who do it [the disobedient thing which I despise], but the sin [nature] which lives in me[total depravity]. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me[total depravity], that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not [total depravity]. 19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want [total depravity]. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want to do, I am no longer the one doing it [that is, it is not me that acts], but the sin [nature] which lives in me. AMP

And this from possibly the GREATEST CHRISTIAN TO EVER LIST - Paul

The Source of and Credit for our Good Works is God. It is a mystical union with God. It is God doing all things for the benefits of those that are united to Him. John 17:21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, (1 Corinthians 6:17), that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

Augustine: But I commend not the works of my hands, for I fear that when thou examinest them thou wilt find more faults than merits. This only I say and desire, despise not the works of thy hands. See in me thy work, not mine. If thou sees mine, thou condemnest; if thou sees thine own, thou crownest. Whatever good works I have are of thee".
 

JLB

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We know that the Law is spiritual, but I am a creature of the flesh [worldly, self-reliant—carnal and unspiritual], sold into slavery to sin [and serving under its control -total depravity]. 15 For I do not understand my own actions [I am baffled and bewildered by them]. I do not practice what I want to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate [total depravity - and yielding to my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. 16 Now if I habitually do what I do not want to do [total depravity], [that means] I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good (morally excellent). 17 So now [if that is the case, then] it is no longer I who do it [the disobedient thing which I despise], but the sin [nature] which lives in me[total depravity]. 18 For I know that nothing good lives in me[total depravity], that is, in my flesh [my human nature, my worldliness—my sinful capacity]. For the willingness [to do good] is present in me, but the doing of good is not [total depravity]. 19 For the good that I want to do, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want [total depravity]. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want to do, I am no longer the one doing it [that is, it is not me that acts], but the sin [nature] which lives in me. AMP


Keep going…


Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:20-23


Not Total Depravity at all.


The flesh may be depraved, but not the total man who is made up of spirt, soul and body.


Two thirds of the man delights in the law of God according to the inward man; spirit and soul, the eternal part of man.


A far cry from Total Depravity!





JLB
 

for_his_glory

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I gave a "love" rating to your post. OTOH, the world has always been evil from the days of Noah until now.
We say the world, the scriptures say the world as in God so loved the world. When we read Genesis 1:1-31, we read vs. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

After the sixth day God placed Adam in the garden to care for it and created woman as his helpmate. But God gave Adam a command not to eat from one particular tree. Now everything was good as God said it was good, but when man disobeyed God he being deceived not only brought evil upon himself, but to every generation after him as it was then that man's heart turned evil turning away from God.

With this being said, the world is not evil, but those who live in the world became evil.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

In those two verses in John 3:16-17 we can read this as God so loved the people of the world that God sent not his Son onto the world to condemn the people, but the people of the world through him might be saved,

Do you see what I am getting at? The world means the people that live here on Earth are evil, not Earth itself.
 

for_his_glory

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The notions that these are fallen as in once holy then gone bad is a false notion that doesn't actually exist in the scriptures and is directly in contradiction with Jesus' Statement that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning in John 8:44
Fallen angels were all angels of God created to be holy, but many came to oppose God like that of Satan and those who followed after him leaving their first estate of being holy.

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).


The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).


Other angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan (Isaiah 14:12-20) whom even Satan is a created spirit of God that is why God could never destroy him because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for these angels.
 

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Do you see what I am getting at? The world means the people that live here on Earth are evil, not Earth itself.
The word WORLD is ambiguous. People define it to mean whatever fits their theology. For example:
The word “world” is often used in a general way as in John 3:16. When Christ's followers said, “Shew Thyself to the world” (John 7:4), did they mean “shew Thyself to all mankind”? When the Pharisees said, “Behold, the world is gone after Him” (John 12:19), did they mean that “all the human family” were flocking after Him? When the apostle wrote, “Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world” (Romans 1:8), did he mean that the faith of the saints at Rome was the subject of conversation by every man, woman, and child on the earth? When Revelation 13:3 informs us that “all the world wondered after the beast”, are we to understand that there will be no exceptions? What of the godly Jewish Remnant, who will be slain (Revelation 20:4) rather than submit? These, and other passages (John 14:17; John 15:19; John 16:20; John 17:14; etc.) which might be quoted, show that the term “the world” often has a relative rather than an absolute force.

Hermeunautics 101: interpret implicit verses by explicit verses to verify assumption.


Premise 1: The WORLD in John 3:16 is everyone without exception
Premise 2: Psalm 5:5 The boastful and the arrogant will not stand in Your sight; You hate all who do evil.
Conclusion:
1) God loves and hates the same person in many/most instances which is a contradiction or
2) Premise 1 is incorrect

Find me a verse where God says He loves someone when know is in HELL!!!! (ASIDE: I know one of the administrators said he thinks Judas Iscariot is in heaven ... maybe that one? :chin)
 

for_his_glory

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If the devil, who we know is a liar, says "I believe," is that the truth?
Satan did/does believe in God that He exist until iniquity was found in him after God set him in the garden of Eden before God created man. There is no conundrum in what Quantrill said in his post #15 as he is speaking truth.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
 

for_his_glory

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All great scriptures and I accept all of them as truthful

What you might consider sometime are these:

Sin is "of the devil," 1 John 3:8

Satan enters the hearts of mankind and SINS in them via theft of Word, Mark 4:15

Mark 4:15 is what happened to Adam, God's son

Now, in these very truthful scriptures, can you see who is really depraved?

After all, the heart is deceitfully wicked, above "all things"

Is mankind more deceitful than Satan? Or is Satan within mankind, making that statement true, because of the existence of temptations within ALL?

You should measure these matters carefully and if you did, you may come to the same very logical conclusion, that Satan in mankind is totally depraved

Seeing this allows conformance to 2 Cor 5:19, among others, such as Romans 13:8-10
No one is denying that Satan is depraved, but those whose hearts have turned wicked is caused by who, Satan entering into the heart, or just man's choice to just be evil?

It is Satan who works evil in others in whom brought evil/depravity into the world by working through the serpent in the garden of Eden.
 
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