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John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

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for_his_glory

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Jesus spoke to children of the devil in the the religious hierarchy, and even in His Own disciples

Why do you only hear Jesus speaking to people when it's so entirely obvious and transparent that is not the case?
Why do you not understand what Jesus spoke that is already written. If you would have read the scriptures I gave in my post you would have seen that is exactly who Jesus spoke to. I left out book, chapter and verse for a reason.

In Matthew 23:1-36 Jesus first criticizes the Scribes and Pharisee's and then condemns them.
 

for_his_glory

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Jesus spoke to children of the devil in the the religious hierarchy, and even in His Own disciples
Are you saying the disciples were of the devil???

If you are referring to Jesus saying to Peter, "get thee behind me Satan" Jesus wasn't referring Peter as being Satan or a child of the devil, but was actually rebuking Satan who was trying to enter the mind of Peter as his mind was not set on the things of God's way, plans and purpose through Jesus. This is why Peter rebuked Jesus in what He was teaching His disciples about His death and resurrection.

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

BTW, you need to quit putting the cart before the horse as the horse will guide you if you let it.
 

for_his_glory

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The flesh may be depraved, but not the total man who is made up of spirt, soul and body.
Amen. God does not look upon this filthy flesh, but looks in the inner parts of man as in soul and spirit. It is the soul and spirit of a person that is judged by God. All flesh is totally depravity as flesh and Spirit can not mix.
 

for_his_glory

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The word WORLD is ambiguous. People define it to mean whatever fits their theology.
Exactly, but we have to put it all in it's proper context of how it is used in scripture as meaning the actual Earth, or all the people that live on earth. It's not that hard to figure out how it's used.

Everyone has an opinion, a view and their own theology, but if it doesn't line up with the full context of what has already been written in the scripture then it only becomes speculation.

We are all born with a sin nature as their is no doubt about that because of evil entering into the world as this nature has passed through all generations, but this does not mean that all are morally corrupt or wicked.
 

Quantrill

 
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But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
John 5:38-40


The Lord requires that we come to Him, and believe, that we may have eternal life?


Total Depravity doctrine seems to teach mankind is too depraved and incapable of coming to Christ.






JLB

I guess a definition should be given as to what exactly 'total depravity' is, that the opening post was addressing.

I just always considered it to mean that all men are lost and cannot save themselves. And Christ's words in (John 5:38-40) would seem to support that.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

 
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Devils are technically angels, angel meaning "messenger"

They happen to be wicked or evil messengers

The notions that these are fallen as in once holy then gone bad is a false notion that doesn't actually exist in the scriptures and is directly in contradiction with Jesus' Statement that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning in John 8:44

As to their so called belief, devils that is, I posed this question earlier:

If the devil, who we know is a liar, says "I believe," is that the truth?

Think carefully before sticking both feet into a conundrum

That satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning is clear. (John 8:44) And, that there have always been 'elect angels' is clear. (1 Tim. 5:21) Point being, God always new who was who.

But, there was a point in time, prior to all these angels rebelling against God, when they were still in a state of holiness, without any sin. (Job 38:4-7)

It is never a question of belief with the angels. They always believe. The rebelling angels, non-elect angels, just rebel. Their belief doesn't matter one iota. Only their action.

So, to your 'conundrum', it doesn't matter if satan believes. He already believes. It is not a question of belief with the angels.

Quantrill
 

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Likewise what?


You refuse to answer my question.

JLB
Answered quite awhile back. You just missed it, and will probably continue to miss it.

If a devil says "I BELIEVE" and devils are liars, are they telling the truth?

And they are in fact EXCLUDED, even though claiming belief

Your issue is that you only see MAN in the equations, but never the resistance party

What do you expect me to say to that kind of one eyed sight anyway? Scriptures do not see that way and neither do I
 

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But, there was a point in time, prior to all these angels rebelling against God, when they were still in a state of holiness, without any sin. (Job 38:4-7).

Quantrill
I would say you are suffering from belief in a very common christian fairy tale, that Satan and devils were once "HOLY ANGELS" which actually exists nowhere in the scriptures

Never is a Satan stated to be "HOLY"

Satan, the devil, is exactly as Jesus said in John 8:44, a liar and murderer, from the beginning

The once holy Satan story is entirely fabricated, and largely done so by the freewill sects who use that ploy to scare people into making good decisions, lest you likewise fall. Another one of their fabrications

But the real fabricator is who? That's always the real question, isn't it? See Mark 4:15 and 1 John 3:8 for personal applications. Maybe it'll hit home for you?
 

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Those who wanted to silence Jesus by death where the Pharisee's of the Sanhedrin who plotted the death of Christ. If they would have known Christ then They would have known the Father for God gave Jesus what to speak and do while here on earth. They were already dead inside as there was no Spiritual life in them. The same throughout all the generations until the day of Christ return as they have sealed their fate.

I see. And you're willing to entirely overlook the fact of Mark 4:15 and how that plays into the facts of the narratives?

Surely you hear Jesus speaking to children of the devil in the religious leaders, in John 8:44?

Do you think Jesus only speaks to people when speaking to people? You might recognize that jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to whom? Uh, yes, that's right! Satan!

Being externally focused will do that. There is a requirement to look inside the box for the real answers to the problems.

Surface analysis will never cut it. Sorry

Sin is (and remains) of the devil in any case, 1 John 3:8

I find it quite pointless to discuss matters of sin and leaving out the major player but unfortunately it happens a lot, because the major player in all sin, is unseen
 

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Why do you think mankind is not depraved when all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord as each one of us have been born with the sin nature from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve who were the first to be deceived by Satan. Who is it that tempts us and is our great adversary that works through others of unbelief.

I think mankind is totally depraved, but you missed the point entirely. Mankind is totally depraved because of the presence of the tempter, the devil, within the brain of everyone

So, now let's look at this question again, shall we?

Who is totally depraved? Mankind, or THE DEVIL?

Pardon me for putting the answer in capital letters.

There is little point in leaving out the obvious culprit, unless of course the person themselves is blinded to the fact of that culprit.

I could approach this also in this way. Israel is shown to be God's children in many citings of the Old Testament, and by Jesus in the New Testament. Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, and Matt. 23:9 for examples.

Even Adam was termed God's son in Luke 3:38

Do you really want to say God has totally depraved children, while simultaneously overlooking the presence of the enemy, the devil, the deceiver, the tempter, within them?

I'd think not. But hey, if you've bought into that line for awhile and missed the obvious, it may take time to unwind this in your own mind

It hit me one day, quite a few decades ago now, that when I read Mark 4:15 after I was saved mind you, that I always seemed to have this voice that came into my head that said, "This doesn't happen to you because you're a believer" and then, hey, wait a minute!

Yeah, unfortunately, a little liar had crept into the picture, and that actually showed me the present day reality of these matters. And yes, it did change the way I saw things, starting with my own self, which, cough, cough, really isn't

That day I also learned how to comply with Luke 14:26. It was clear as a Bell
 

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No one is denying that Satan is depraved,
GREAT!

It's so nice to have things in common sights.

I would say Satan is in fact "totally depraved"

AND, likewise, if the heart is deceitful above all things, does it pay to see the human heart apart from the totally depraved? I'd have to say very seriously, no. Satan actually "must" be in that picture, assuredly

Are we going to say the human heart is more deceitful than Satan? Uh, no. It is so, because of Satan's presence in the picture

Calvin just missed the obvious is all. Because, you see...well, you have to see the unseen, and Calvin probably exempted his own heart and the deceiver therein,

But WHO would have really done that in Calvin to start with?

Should be entirely obvious by now
 

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Why do you not understand what Jesus spoke that is already written. If you would have read the scriptures I gave in my post you would have seen that is exactly who Jesus spoke to. I left out book, chapter and verse for a reason.

In Matthew 23:1-36 Jesus first criticizes the Scribes and Pharisee's and then condemns them.
What makes you think Jesus isn't condemning their deceiver?

Who do you think was first in line to get hit by Mark 4:15, if not the leaders in the temple?

Why do you think they are given as examples of deceptions and vile acts?

Yes, they are the first in line to get hit by the reality of Mark 4:15, because THEY handled the Word for the masses,

and, wait for it

Mark 4:15 is real

So why is that not factored into your sights?
 
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Are you saying the disciples were of the devil???
Maybe we should get a few facts on the table.

Were the disciples sinless?

If not, was their sin "of the devil?"

We can be dominant over the enemy, even while having temptations in our minds

That doesn't make us the devil or of the devil

The devil is the devil, period. And the devil sins, IN MANKIND
 

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I would say you are suffering from belief in a very common christian fairy tale, that Satan and devils were once "HOLY ANGELS" which actually exists nowhere in the scriptures

Never is a Satan stated to be "HOLY"

Satan, the devil, is exactly as Jesus said in John 8:44, a liar and murderer, from the beginning

The once holy Satan story is entirely fabricated, and largely done so by the freewill sects who use that ploy to scare people into making good decisions, lest you likewise fall. Another one of their fabrications

But the real fabricator is who? That's always the real question, isn't it? See Mark 4:15 and 1 John 3:8 for personal applications. Maybe it'll hit home for you?

Not suffering at all. I just showed you (Job 38:4-7). Which you ignored. The angels were all in a sinless state when God laid the foundations of the earth. They were in a holy condition with God. But, as I said, because God is God, and He created them, He knew his elect angels, (1 Tim. 5:21), from those non-elect, who would later rebel.

And, we are told in (Eze. 28:15) that prior to his fall, satan was perfect in the way in which God created him. (Eze. 28:14-15). In fact he was the 'highest' of God's creation. He walked upon the holy mountain of God. (28:14) He had not yet fallen. He was in a state of holiness before God. But, again, God always knew who he was.

The only reason to believe in the once holy angels rebelling against God is because it is said so in Scripture. Your accusation that it is used by 'freewill' sects to scare people is amiss. It can't be used to scare people because, as I already told you, people come into salvation by faith. Angels are treated differently. They already believe, but it doesn't matter.

As for (Mark 4:15) and (1 John 3:8), they don't really address the angels former holiness and rebellion.

Quantrill
 

JLB

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I guess a definition should be given as to what exactly 'total depravity' is, that the opening post was addressing.

I just always considered it to mean that all men are lost and cannot save themselves. And Christ's words in (John 5:38-40) would seem to support that.

Quantrill

No.

Total Depravity means to the Calvinist, that man is totally depraved and can not believe the Gospel unless God Sovereignly saves man first, then later he can believe when he hears the Gospel.



180 degrees backwards from scripture.





JLB
 

for_his_glory

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I see. And you're willing to entirely overlook the fact of Mark 4:15 and how that plays into the facts of the narratives?

Surely you hear Jesus speaking to children of the devil in the religious leaders, in John 8:44?

Do you think Jesus only speaks to people when speaking to people? You might recognize that jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to whom? Uh, yes, that's right! Satan!

Being externally focused will do that. There is a requirement to look inside the box for the real answers to the problems.

Surface analysis will never cut it. Sorry

Sin is (and remains) of the devil in any case, 1 John 3:8

I find it quite pointless to discuss matters of sin and leaving out the major player but unfortunately it happens a lot, because the major player in all sin, is unseen
What does Mark 4:15 have to do with total depravity?

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Where does it say anything about total depravity in that verse?

In Matthew 23:1-36 are seven woes Jesus spoke against the Scribes and Pharisees as they were so depraved that Jesus condemned them.

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Of course sin is of the devil that works within the hearts of man as I never denied that. When Jesus spoke to those He characterized and then chastised and condemned He was speaking against the works of Satan found in them. That is why I gave the example of the Scribes and Pharisees.
 

for_his_glory

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I think mankind is totally depraved, but you missed the point entirely. Mankind is totally depraved because of the presence of the tempter, the devil, within the brain of everyone
You point all mankind of being totally depraved so this would mean everyone of us, including your father, mother and even your self being totally depraved. So are you saying you were totally depraved before coming to Christ?

It's human nature that is totally corrupt, not the human until sin is found in them. We are born with a nature to sin, not born with sin.

Psa 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Psa 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

We are all fearfully and wonderfully knitted together in our mothers womb by the hand of God. Do you think He knitted us together with sin before we were born!!!
 
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JLB

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What does Mark 4:15 have to do with total depravity?

Absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with total depravity.


And these are the ones by the wayside where the word is sown. When they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the word that was sown in their hearts. Mark 4:15


Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. Luke 8:12


The issue of being saved is one of believing, which is of the heart.


The next group also deals with unbelievers who also hear the gospel, and do in fact believe… for a while.


But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:13



Smaller believes that sin and Satan are synonymous and the sin that dwells in the human body is actually Satan.







JLB
 

JLB

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The devil is the devil, period. And the devil sins, IN MANKIND

The Devil doesn’t dwell in born again Spirit filled Christians.


Sin on the other hand does continue to dwell in our flesh even after we are saved.


Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Romans 8:12-16


  • For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

  • The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,



Our spirit is filled with the Holy Spirit, not the Devil.






JLB
 

for_his_glory

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What makes you think Jesus isn't condemning their deceiver?

Who do you think was first in line to get hit by Mark 4:15, if not the leaders in the temple?

Why do you think they are given as examples of deceptions and vile acts?

Yes, they are the first in line to get hit by the reality of Mark 4:15, because THEY handled the Word for the masses,

and, wait for it

Mark 4:15 is real

So why is that not factored into your sights?

Gut check time
Why do you read into your own agenda of trying to cause division among the members. If you would sit back and try to understand what we are telling you, it is all about the totally depravity of Satan who enters into those who oppose Christ Jesus stealing the word away from them before it has a chance to take root. Read John chapter 8 especially vs. 44 as it is all about what we have been trying to tell you.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
 
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