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John Chapter 5 is Against Total Depravity

Quantrill

 
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I answered your question, now you can answer mine.

Then when you have answered mine, you can ask another.



Where does the Bible use the term total depravity? What chapter and verse?




JLB

The other questions you need to answer in (63) will affect my answer. If you don't want to answer, that's fine. But they were all in one post for a reason.

Quantrill
 

JLB

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The other questions you need to answer in (63) will affect my answer.


Sorry, I will answer one question at a time, then I expect you to answer my question.


One at a time.


I think we can agree that the term “total depravity” is not found in scripture.


Do you believe God Sovereignly saves a person apart from them hearing and believing the Gospel?




JLB
 
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stovebolts

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F sin is of the devil, (it is) then the mere presence of temptation by the tempter, in mind, should be enough of a convincer, even without any other actions
Sin is a result of an action or failure of action.
1 John 1:9

New International Version

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness..

All Sin is not of the devil.
 

Quantrill

 
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So, when we speak of 'total depravity' is it just a Calvinist doctrine? Where was that determined in this thread?

In other words, is there such a thing as total depravity outside the Calvinist doctrine? I hold to total depravity. Man cannot save himself.

Quantrill

1.) Is total depravity just a Calvinist doctrine? Of course not. Most all Christians believe man is a sinner and cannot save himself, that it is all from God. Calvinist's certainly carry it to a further degree than most in defining that the man is born-again prior to his exercise of saving faith. That is a very fine line and in my opinion impossible to prove.

2.) It was never said we are talking about the T. in T.U.L.I.P.

3.) Yes, there is such a thing as the doctrine of total depravity outside the Calvinist view. But once they are addressed they will be seen to not be so very far apart.

I hold to total deravity. Man is a sinner and cannot save himself. We can exercise our faith towards God and Christ and be saved. But, we are also told that even our faith is a gift from God. (Eph. 2:8) This coincides perfectly with Christ's statement to Peter in (Matt. 16:15-17). If God had not, by His Spirit, revealed it to Peter, Peter could never have known it.

The example with Peter may not be all that convincing since Peter was a saved man already under the Old Testament economy. But it is still the New Testament economy being introduced. The faith to believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God is a gift from God and comes from the Father.

Quantrill
 

JLB

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The example with Peter may not be all that convincing since Peter was a saved man already under the Old Testament economy.


What does this mean… “Peter was saved under the Old Testament economy?”


“The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.
Luke 16:16


Didn‘t Peter hear His voice and follow Christ?


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28






JLB
 

for_his_glory

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Because it shows Satan in the hearts/minds of mankind.

There is the totally depraved one.
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Where does it say these people are totally depraved because Satan stole the word from their hearts?
 

for_his_glory

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Is this your definition or Calvins definition? Is it the definition the author of this post had in mind when giving the title of this thread?

Quantrill
Did I not write: "man's theology/doctrine?

Yes, this is what Calvin believed, but not only Calvin, but many Protestant denominations including some Lutheran synods (Martin Luther) Arminian denominations such as the Methodist church (John Wesley) to name a couple that teach total depravity.
 

for_his_glory

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Is this your definition or Calvins definition? Is it the definition the author of this post had in mind when giving the title of this thread?

Quantrill
Anyone can search the definition like I did and posted it, as for after all it was you that asked for one.
 

for_his_glory

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Created as a perfect devil, yes. If you read "in all thy ways" that would be uh, perfect devil ways
Was Ezekiel lying in what he wrote?

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
 

for_his_glory

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Uh, no. No Holy Satan therein either

Created as a perfect devil, yes. If you read "in all thy ways" that would be uh, perfect devil ways


No, it's not. You've provided zero scriptural proof showing Satan was once a holy angel because it's not in the scriptures to be found.

Jesus already gave us Satan's measure in John 8:44. There is zero reason to doubt what Jesus said about the devil being a liar and a murderer from the beginning.
You were given the scriptures by Quantrill but you choose to ignore them, Why is that?
 

for_his_glory

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I've said no different

My observation to you is why do you make the slave of Satan totally depraved when Jesus came to save such captives.

And ignore the fact that it is only Satan who is totally depraved.

You see the fact that there is more than one party involved in these matters does lend credence to mankind not being totally depraved, and I cited earlier that all of Israel for example were and still are God's children, per Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, Matt 23:9 and others

God did not and does not have totally depraved children.
If we are a slave to sin then we are none of Christ own, but follow after Satan unaware of his devices. If we serve sin then we are serving Satan who we have fallen to his temptation. If the heart is evil then it makes the whole body totally depraved as we would have Satan dwelling in us. Those who are Spiritually born again from above and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit can never sin as long as they are walking in the Spirit. So in that sense those who are truly God's own will not choose to sin. There is always a battle between the flesh and the Spirit.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
 

for_his_glory

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smaller why do you refute the scriptures we give you.

You said:
Well, I guess we'll just have to agree that you see Satan stated as being at one time, Holy, even though it actually does not exist in print

I might question the source of such views and we'll leave it at that

We gave you:
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

It comes down to two things as you either do not believe what has already been written or you are just trolling to argue and goad others to argue with you. I think you are just trolling as let me know which one it is.
 

Quantrill

 
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Did I not write: "man's theology/doctrine?

Yes, this is what Calvin believed, but not only Calvin, but many Protestant denominations including some Lutheran synods (Martin Luther) Arminian denominations such as the Methodist church (John Wesley) to name a couple that teach total depravity.

I am not defending the T. in Tulip.

See my post #(104).

But I do hold to total depravity for the reasons given.

Quantrill
 

Quantrill

 
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Anyone can search the definition like I did and posted it, as for after all it was you that asked for one.

Is this the definition the author of this thread had in mind?

Is Calvin the only one who held to a doctrine of total depravity?

As i have said, I hold to total depravity. That doesn't mean you can identify me with Calvins definition of depravity.

Total depravity---man is born a sinner and cannot save himself. Salvation is the work of God on man's behalf.

See again my post #(104).

Quantrill
 
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smaller

 
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Sin is a result of an action or failure of action.
1 John 1:9

New International Version​

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness..

All Sin is not of the devil.
I didn't see the elimination of any sin in 1 John 3:8's statement nor can we eliminate the involvement of devils in the chain of events i.e. primarily temptations, but also deceptions, errors, false doctrines, internal Word theft, etc etc

I'd also observe it's a common mistake to say only external actions constitute sins, per Jesus in
Matthew 15:19-20
Mark 7:21-23
Matt. 5:28

Short version. There are not sinless people other than Jesus. We all have evil thoughts which defile us, and it is virtually impossible to rule out the tempter from the matters
 

smaller

 
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Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Where does it say these people are totally depraved because Satan stole the word from their hearts?
The presence of Satan in the form of internal temptation constitutes the most depraved being there is, therein

What more do you want to wrench out of the picture?

That human hearts are more depraved than Satan? An unlikely and scripturally closed avenue
 

smaller

 
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Was Ezekiel lying in what he wrote?

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Got to be aware of the caveats:

"in thy ways"

A perfect devil does not equate to a holy angel or God
 

smaller

 
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You were given the scriptures by Quantrill but you choose to ignore them, Why is that?
Our exchange was relatively simple. I requested Mr. Quantrill to provide a single statement in the scriptures stating that Satan was Holy. Knowing in advance of course there is no such presentation anywhere in the scriptures.

Mr. Quantrill insisted his scriptures state that Satan is or was Holy. Maybe someone else can pinpoint the fact, but alas, no one will because it's still not there, and no, they were not ignored. Don't know why you'd say that anyway

Do you think Satan was Holy? If so, I'd make the same request, to show it in writing
 

smaller

 
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smaller why do you refute the scriptures we give you.

You said:


We gave you:
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

It comes down to two things as you either do not believe what has already been written or you are just trolling to argue and goad others to argue with you. I think you are just trolling as let me know which one it is.
I've provided repeatedly Jesus statement of fact that the devil was a liar and a murderer from the beginning, John 8:44, and that nowhere in the scriptures does it say Satan was holy anywhere.

Being a perfect devil from the beginning is far from holy.

No need to push further than the facts I provided above
 
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