John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist

[Alfred Persson]

From Frame 5:15

The Pastor says:

"I think the argument is when you read the chapter and you see how unique the apostles were and when they passed away what finality that was; that defines cessationism when you cease to have apostles you cease to have the signs that were unique to the apostles. So when someone says he's Cessationist…[he doesn't] mean the Holy Spirit ceased to work or Christ ceased to work. I only mean that the things that attended the apostles have ceased when the apostles ceased." -John MacArthur

"One of the arguments I've made is that every charismatic except the really bizarre quirky ones if you take the better charismatics the ones whose theology are more on the sound end of the spectrum they're all Cessationists as well because and in fact they would admit this. Wayne grudem says contemporary prophecy the prophecies we're hearing today are fallible; everybody would acknowledge that the tongues people speak today are not like the tongues at Pentecost, they're not translatable languages. So clearly something has changed and unless you want to deny that you've embraced the kind of cessationism." - Interviewer

[John MaCarthur resumes]
"Yeah you just put your finger on what I think is the knockout punch in the final chapter of the book. The last chapter is an open letter to my continuationist friends---and my continuation friends are my friends even friends theologically in many cases, and they want to be continuationist. But in that chapter and exactly what Phil said is the case:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

So we need to come up with a new name for them you know they are "inventionists". I don't know what but that that is not a continuity--- once you say it's not what was then you're not really a continuationist. So I try to back them into a corner and make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

 

[Hidden In Him]

So we need to come up with a new name for them you know they are "inventionists". I don't know what but that that is not a continuity--- once you say it's not what was then you're not really a continuationist. So I try to back them into a corner and make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

No, Lol.

MacArthur doesn't have any Charismatic experience, so like all Cessationists he is basing his conclusions on a whole list of assumptions.

The main problem is that he excuses himself from having to manifest supernatural gifts himself by reinventing New Testament teaching into something foreign to it; a modernized version of "Christianity" that bears even less in common with the original.

If he were actually spending some time pursuing God for the gifts as Paul commanded, he wouldn't be nearly so critical and judgmental of others for not measuring up to the apostles at this time in church history.

I don't really have the time you seem to, so I don't know if I will do anything other than pin the tail on the donkey here. But he needs to be careful about using the word "inventionists." He will be held accountable to God for the "sins" of others which he himself was far more guilty of.

 

[Alfred Persson]

No, Lol.

MacArthur doesn't have any Charismatic experience, so like all Cessationists he is basing his conclusions on a whole list of assumptions.

The main problem is that he excuses himself from having to manifest supernatural gifts himself by reinventing New Testament teaching into something foreign to it; a modernized version of "Christianity" that bears even less in common with the original.

If he were actually spending some time pursuing God for the gifts as Paul commanded, he wouldn't be nearly so critical and judgmental of others for not measuring up to the apostles at this time in church history.

I don't really have the time you seem to, so I don't know if I will do anything other than pin the tail on the donkey here. But he needs to be careful about using the word "inventionists." He will be held accountable to God for the "sins" of others which he himself was far more guilty of.

Its easy to prove MacArthur wrong, point him (and me) to the group whose tongues are actual languages, whose healings replicate exactly what the apostles did, where prophecy is about the future and is never wrong.

That's all Continualists need do, to prove Continualism.

But if you point to "fallible prophecy", tongues that aren't the same as on Pentecost, and healings that are different than those done by the apostles, then his allegations stands:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

... make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

His argument is based on fact, not his experiences. His experiences are irrelevant and immaterial to the proof FROM YOU CONTINUALISTS he asks for.

If I claimed to have the same coin the apostles used, and I produce an old out of circulation US quarter and say "see, its money". My claim is not proved. Its irrelevant and immaterial you don't have the same coin in your collection and didn't make any effort to obtain it.

The only way I can prove my claim, is to produce the same coin the apostles used in the 1st century.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Its easy to prove MacArthur wrong

I do it on a regular basis.

God bless.
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

Its easy to prove MacArthur wrong, point him (and me) to the group whose tongues are actual languages, whose healings replicate exactly what the apostles did, where prophecy is about the future and is never wrong.

That's all Continualists need do, to prove Continualism.

But if you point to "fallible prophecy", tongues that aren't the same as on Pentecost, and healings that are different than those done by the apostles, then his allegations stands:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

... make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

His argument is based on fact, not his experiences. His experiences are irrelevant and immaterial to the proof FROM YOU CONTINUALISTS he asks for.

If I claimed to have the same coin the apostles used, and I produce an old out of circulation US quarter and say "see, its money". My claim is not proved. Its irrelevant and immaterial you don't have the same coin in your collection and didn't make any effort to obtain it.

The only way I can prove my claim, is to produce the same coin the apostles used in the 1st century.

Don't learn about spiritual gifts from those who have never operated in them, Alfred.

If you want to know, seek answers from people who have.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I do it on a regular basis.

God bless.
- H

You told me the prophets who predicted Trump would win didn't interpret their visions correctly, but you wouldn't call them false prophets. So you believe in "fallible prophecy", which isn't what the apostles and prophets of the Bible did.

Any deviation from the NT standard is "something else," not a continuation. MacArthur's argument is sound and evidently you have no answer for it.

You could go to Grace Community Church, and prophesy to MacArthur in front of many witnesses, and prove your gift of prophecy IS a continuation of the NT Standard, and not something different.

In fact, there are dozens of charismatic churches near Grace Community, just call one of them up and surely they can send a few prophets to Grace Community, and prove they manifest "a continuation of the gifts seen in the NT".

You can get it all on film, with a smartphone post it on the internet, if he declines the offer. That would really destroy his argument.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You could go to Grace Community Church, and prophesy to MacArthur in front of many witnesses, and prove your gift of prophecy IS a continuation of the NT Standard, and not something different.

As if I would prove something to a man whose ears were closed and eyes were shut.

Alfred, I think yours are as well, or I'd be talking to you more.

Take some advice and stop posting on matters you know almost nothing about. You are sinning against both God and men when you do so.

 

[Hidden In Him]

You told me the prophets who predicted Trump would win didn't interpret their visions correctly, but you wouldn't call them false prophets. So you believe in "fallible prophecy", which isn't what the apostles and prophets of the Bible did

One last thing before I leave this. You don't have any idea what I actually believe on these matters, as is clear from your statements... not just above but consistently and regularly. And the reason is the same as with John MacArthur. You listen to no one but yourselves, to your own detriment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

As if I would prove something to a man whose ears were closed and eyes were shut.

Alfred, I think yours are as well, or I'd be talking to you more.

Take some advice and stop posting on matters you know almost nothing about. You are sinning against both God and men when you do so.

While I believe he would repent if shown NT prophecies and miracles, it doesn't matter if he does.

Organize a "flash gang" of Prophets from churches near Grace Community, armed with Smartphones recording the prophecies etc. proving their gifts were a continuation of what is seen in the NT.

Knock on the door of Grace Community and prove Continalism is true!

That's would be better than Luther's 95 thesis nailed to a Catholic Church door!

It would make the secular news cycle worldwide.


In fact, this strategy is so obviously the way to win for Continualists one must wonder why it wasn't done years ago.

Can you explain why this hasn't been done?

I believe no Continualist has done this because Cessationism is true, and modern "gifts" are not a "continuation of what the apostles did", they are something new. So MacArthur is right, a new name should be created, "Inventionists" or "Something Different than the NT" would be more arrurate.

 

[miamited]

I prefer the way the Scriptures explain us: one is either a believer or an unbeliever.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hopeful]

While I believe he would repent if shown NT prophecies and miracles, it doesn't matter if he does.

Organize a "flash gang" of Prophets from churches near Grace Community, armed with Smartphones recording the prophecies etc. proving their gifts were a continuation of what is seen in the NT.

Knock on the door of Grace Community and prove Continalism is true!

That's would be better than Luther's 95 thesis nailed to a Catholic Church door!

It would make the secular news cycle worldwide.


In fact, this strategy is so obviously the way to win for Continualists one must wonder why it wasn't done years ago.

Can you explain why this hasn't been done?

I believe no Continualist has done this because Cessationism is true, and modern "gifts" are not a "continuation of what the apostles did", they are something new. So MacArthur is right, a new name should be created, "Inventionists" or "Something Different than the NT" would be more arrurate.

I thank God that I don't need to see and hear things in order to believe them.
BTW, there are indeed still apostles on earth.
(And why didn't he count Barnabas as an apostle? Acts 14:14)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I prefer the way the Scriptures explain us: one is either a believer or an unbeliever.

God bless,
Ted

You should applaud our loyalty to the Holy Scriptures, as God did the Bereans:

10 Then the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea. When they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men.
(Acts 17:10-12 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

I thank God that I don't need to see and hear things in order to believe them.

Do you believe every religion is of God or do you need to see and hear proof?

 

[Hopeful]

Do you believe every religion is of God or do you need to see and hear proof?

I don't believe that every religion is of God.
All but one are enemies to God.
There will be two, after the Jewish people return to God.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't believe that every religion is of God.
All but one are enemies to God.
There will be two, after the Jewish people return to God.

How can you know that?

You said:

"I thank God that I don't need to see and hear things in order to believe them."-Hopeful

They claim to be of God and you don't need to see and hear things in order to believe them.

 

[Hopeful]

How can you know that?

I didn't write "I know..." that.
I wrote "I believe..." that

You said:
"I thank God that I don't need to see and hear things in order to believe them."-Hopeful

Again, I thank God, in the name of Jesus Christ His Son.

They claim to be of God and you don't need to see and hear things in order to believe them.

Jews...right?
What they claim is of themselves and not of God.
When they submit to Jesus they will again be "God's people".
Have you submitted to God's Son, Jesus Christ?

 

[Iconoclast]

Don't learn about spiritual gifts from those who have never operated in them, Alfred.

If you want to know, seek answers from people who have.

No one "operates in spiritual gifts". WOF nonsense.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

From Frame 5:15

The Pastor says:

"I think the argument is when you read the chapter and you see how unique the apostles were and when they passed away what finality that was; that defines cessationism when you cease to have apostles you cease to have the signs that were unique to the apostles. So when someone says he's Cessationist…[he doesn't] mean the Holy Spirit ceased to work or Christ ceased to work. I only mean that the things that attended the apostles have ceased when the apostles ceased." -John MacArthur

"One of the arguments I've made is that every charismatic except the really bizarre quirky ones if you take the better charismatics the ones whose theology are more on the sound end of the spectrum they're all Cessationists as well because and in fact they would admit this. Wayne grudem says contemporary prophecy the prophecies we're hearing today are fallible; everybody would acknowledge that the tongues people speak today are not like the tongues at Pentecost, they're not translatable languages. So clearly something has changed and unless you want to deny that you've embraced the kind of cessationism." - Interviewer

[John MaCarthur resumes]
"Yeah you just put your finger on what I think is the knockout punch in the final chapter of the book. The last chapter is an open letter to my continuationist friends---and my continuation friends are my friends even friends theologically in many cases, and they want to be continuationist. But in that chapter and exactly what Phil said is the case:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

So we need to come up with a new name for them you know they are "inventionists". I don't know what but that that is not a continuity--- once you say it's not what was then you're not really a continuationist. So I try to back them into a corner and make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

Their experience is extremely limited and they judge solely on their personal experience. I’ve known people who were given the gift of normal understandable languages including sign language.

But by all means solve the problem of unbelief by inventing a new word. Why be different than the world? That’s what they’ve learned to do.

 

[for_his_glory]

From Frame 5:15

The Pastor says:

"I think the argument is when you read the chapter and you see how unique the apostles were and when they passed away what finality that was; that defines cessationism when you cease to have apostles you cease to have the signs that were unique to the apostles. So when someone says he's Cessationist…[he doesn't] mean the Holy Spirit ceased to work or Christ ceased to work. I only mean that the things that attended the apostles have ceased when the apostles ceased." -John MacArthur

"One of the arguments I've made is that every charismatic except the really bizarre quirky ones if you take the better charismatics the ones whose theology are more on the sound end of the spectrum they're all Cessationists as well because and in fact they would admit this. Wayne grudem says contemporary prophecy the prophecies we're hearing today are fallible; everybody would acknowledge that the tongues people speak today are not like the tongues at Pentecost, they're not translatable languages. So clearly something has changed and unless you want to deny that you've embraced the kind of cessationism." - Interviewer

[John MaCarthur resumes]
"Yeah you just put your finger on what I think is the knockout punch in the final chapter of the book. The last chapter is an open letter to my continuationist friends---and my continuation friends are my friends even friends theologically in many cases, and they want to be continuationist. But in that chapter and exactly what Phil said is the case:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

So we need to come up with a new name for them you know they are "inventionists". I don't know what but that that is not a continuity--- once you say it's not what was then you're not really a continuationist. So I try to back them into a corner and make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

These are nothing more than the views and opinions of John MacArthur and comes against what the Apostles have taught.

Cessationism is a doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. The doctrine was developed in the reformation and is particularly associated with the Calvinists.

The doctrine of cessationism has evolved into various forms since its initial formulation. One disagreement between cessationists is the point when the gifts ceased—either with the deaths of the apostles, or gradually over the first few centuries. If the gifts are only imparted through the laying on of hands by the apostles, as Warfield argues, then the gifts necessarily ended with the death of the last apostle. One writer categorises such a priori beliefs as principled cessationism, but recognises that an a posteriori, or empirical, cessationism is also possible. Empirical cessationism asserts that the gifts were lost through the church's supposed deviation from sound doctrine, and not because they must necessarily have ended. The author quotes a study published by cessationists Brian and Scott McPherson to illustrate the empirical cessationist position.

Although the original formulation of cessationism arose in response to claims of healing and miracles in the Catholic Church, cessationists now divide into four viewpoints based on their views about the possibility of miracles among Christians today. These are:

Full cessationists believe that all miracles have ceased, along with any miraculous gifts.
Classical cessationists assert that the miraculous gifts such as prophecy, healing, and speaking in tongues ceased with the apostles. However, they do believe that God occasionally works in supernatural ways today.
Consistent cessationists believe that not only were the miraculous gifts only for the establishment of the first-century church, but the need for apostles and prophets also ceased.
Concentric cessationists believe that the miraculous gifts have indeed ceased in the mainstream church and evangelized areas, but may appear in unreached areas as an aid to spreading the Gospel. Daniel B. Wallace describes himself as a concentric cessationist and describes the other cessationist viewpoints as "linear".

 

[for_his_glory]

Alfred Persson many of us have been through this with you many times and even giving our testimonies of the Spiritual gifts that each of us have been given. Sir, you are in a Christian forum that believes in Spiritual gifts and have practiced and seen these gifts work through the Holy Spirit. It wasn't the Apostles that had these gifts and died with them, but the Holy Spirit that worked these Spiritual gifts through them as well as everyone today that have sought after them. The only ones that are going to believe in these false teachings are those who have been blinded to truth as they would rather believe man's doctrines instead of the doctrines of Christ Jesus in what He has already taught.

I encourage you to start studying the Bible for what has already been written as you will be held accountable to God for preaching another doctrine.