Learn something.......................

[(THE)]

After Solomon built his temple God was angry with Solomon so God took most of the tribes of Israel from Solomon.......God allowed Solomon to continue leadership over the tribe of Judah.......The tribe of Benjamin also lived in the same land,,,, so Solomon became leader of 2 of the 12 tribes of Israel,,,the other 10 tribes were taken from Solomon....Lets begin....

I Kings 11:43 "And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead

--Solomon has just died and Rehoboam is now become the king of Solomon's 2 tribes "Judah"and "Benjamin" ...

I Kings 12:1 "And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king."

I Kings 12:2 "And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was yet in Egypt, heard of it, for he was fled from the presence of king Solomon, and Jeroboam dwelt in Egypt.

--- in 1Kings 11:29 its says Jeroboam will be king of ten of the 12 tribes.........(Proof below)

I Kings 11:29 "And it came to pass at that time when Jeroboam went out of Jerusalem, that the prophet Ahijah the Shilomite found him in the way; and he had clad himself with a new garment; and they two were alone in the field:"

I Kings 11:30 "And Ahijah caught the new garment that was on him, and rent it in twelve pieces:"

I Kings 11:31 "And he said to Jeroboam, "Take thee ten pieces: for thus saith the Lord, the God of Israel, Behold, I will rend the kingdom out of the hand of Solomon, and will give ten tribes to thee:"

-------

Now when Solomon got word that Jeroboam was going to be king,,,,,Solomon tried to kill Jeroboam.....(Proof below)

I Kings 11:40 "Solomon sought therefore to kill Jeroboam, And Jeroboam arose, and fled into Egypt, unto Shishak king of 'Egypt, and was in Egypt until the death of Solomon."

SO Jeroboam fled to Egypt,,, and and when Solomon died he returned to take his throne....
(Proof below)

I Kings 12:1 "And Rehoboam went to Shechem: for all Israel were come to Shechem to make him king."

I Kings 12:2 "And it came to pass, when Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who was yet in Egypt, heard of it, (for he was fled from the presence of king Solomon, and Jeroboam dwelt in Egypt;)"

I Kings 12:3 "That they sent and called him... And Jeroboam and all the congregation of Israel came and spake unto Rehoboam, saying,"

I Kings 12:4 "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, ,and his heavy yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

The people are saying that under Solomon that had it hard,,,But the tribes of "Judah" and "Benjamin" had it better.............

SO all the people are asking is,,, if Rehoboam will lighten up they will follow him,,,and Rehoboam can lead all 12 tribes.......

I Kings 12:5 "And he said unto them, "Depart yet for three days, then come again to me." And the People departed."

--Rehoboam decides he wants to think about the offer,,,,remember,, Rehoboam is a jerk and he really doesnt want to lighten up on the 10 tribes.....

I Kings 12:6 "And king Rehoboam consulted with the old men, that stood before Solomon his father while he yet lived, and said, "How do ye advise that I may answer this People?" "

SO Rehoboam ashed the the old men that kicked it with his father,,, Solomon,,what he should do....

I Kings 12:7 "And they spake unto him, saying, "If thou wilt be a servant unto this People this day, and wilt serve them, and answer them, and speak good words to them, then they will be thy servants for ever." "

The old men told Rehoboam to lighten up.....

I Kings 12:8 "But he forsook the counsel of the old men, which they had given him, and consulted with the young men that were grown up with him, and which stood before him:"

But instead of listening to the old men,,,Rehoboam went to the young men he grew up with,,,big mistake.....

I Kings 12:9 "And he said unto them, "What counsel give ye that we may answer this people, who have spoken to me, saying, `Make the yoke which thy father did put upon us lighter?" "

Rehoboam is asking the young men for advice,,,,whether he should lighten up or not....

I Kings 12:10 "And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, "Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, `Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us;' thus shalt thou say unto them, `My little finger shall be thinker than my father's

The young men are telling Roboam not to lighten up,,,but be even meaner...

I Kings 12:11 "And now whereas my father did lade you with a heavy yoke, I will add to your yoke: I will chastise you with scorpions.' "

Again,,, they are telling Rehoboam to be even worse then his father Solomon was on the people.....

I Kings 12:12 "So Jeroboam and all the People came to Rehoboam the third day, as the king had appointed, saying, "Come to me again the third day." "

Now Jeroboam and the 10 tribes are back,,,,and they want to see of Rehobaom is going to lighten up.....

I Kings 12:13 "And the king answered the People roughly, and forsook the old men's counsel that they gave him;"

Rehoboam didn't listen to the old men.......

I Kings 12:14 "And [Rehoboam] spake to them after the counsel of the young men, saying, "My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chasetise you with scorpions." "

Rehoboam listened to the young men,,,,and now we can see hes a real jerk....

I Kings 12:15 "Wherefore the king hearkened not unto the People; for the cause was from the Lord, that He might perform His saying, which the Lord spake by Ahijah the Shilonite unto Jeroboam the son of Nebat."

ok this is a very important scripture....as we can see GOD is the one to caused Rehoboam's heart and allowed Rehoboam to be a jerk,,,just like he did with Pharoah....

Remember in 1 Kings chp 11 God said all this was going to happen anyway.....

,,lets continue....

I Kings 12:16 "So when all Israel saw that the king hearkened not unto them, the people answered the king, saying, "What portion have we in David? neither have we inheritance in the son of Jesse: to your tents, O Israel: now see to thine own house, David." So Israel departed unto their tents."

The 10 tribes are now angry with Rehoboam and the tribe of Judah and Benjamin,,,,so they are ready to go to war.......

From now on the 12 tribes are officially split.....and God did it.....

The 10 tribes are now called "Israel"

The other 2 tribes "Judah" and "Benjamin" are now called "The house of Judah" (JEWS)

I Kings 12:17 "But as for the children of Israel which dwelt in the cities of Judah, Rehoboam reigned over them

The children of Israel that dwelt in the land of Judah are "Benjamin" and "Judah"
Rehoboam is the Leader of the tribes of 'Judah" and "Benjamin"

I Kings 12:18 "Then king Rehoboam set Adoram, who was over the tribute; and all Israel stoned him with stones, that he died. Therefore king Rehoboam made speed to get him up to his chariot, to flee to Jerusalem."

Rehoboam told the 10 tribes he was going to be worse then his father Solomon,,,so he sent a tax collector out to get money from the 10 tribes,,,,the 10 tribes killed the tax collector,,,and Rehoboam got the heck out of there...

I Kings 12:19 "So Israel rebelled against the house of David unto this day."

Israel is the 10 tribes ,,,they rebelled against the house of David,,,the house of David is "Judah" and "Benjamin".....

I Kings 12:20 "And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only."

SO Israel (10 tribes) just made Jeroboam the official leader,,,,but he was not the leader of the tribe of Judah,,,and remember Benjamin is with Judah....

So Jeroboam is the official king over all Israel......But not Judah and Benjamin which are Jews.....

I Kings 12:21 "And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, and hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon."

A war is about to happen between Israel the (10 tribes) and Judah and Benjamin (Jews)

I Kings 12:22 "But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying, "

I Kings 12:23 " "Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the People, saying,"

I Kings 12:24 "`Thus saith the Lord, "Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for this thing is from Me.' They hearkened therefore to the word of the Lord, and returned to depart, according to the word of the Lord."

God didn't let them go to war,,,,,the 10 tribes (Israel) has now been split from Judah and Benjamin (Jews),,,, but God is not going to let them go to war....

So Gods people have just split ,,,the 12 tribes of Israel have now become 1o tribes of Israel,,,,,,,because 2 tribes "Judah" and "Benjamin" would be separated by God......

conclusion,,,

The 10 tribes (Israel) were captured and scattered by the Assyrians they traveled over the Caucasus mountains and became known as "Celts" "Anglo Saxon" Brits' Dame and Norman,,,,protectors of the faith......White people...

The tribes of Judah and Benjamin (Jews) were captured by Nebuchadnezzar,,,and taken to Babylon after they came out they were called Jews....

So the next time you here someone talking and there acting like,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Israel = Jew ,,,they dont know what there talking about because the Jews and the nation of Israel are 2 different things......2 different nations.....

BUT,,,,,,,,,,,the Jews (Judah and Benjamin) will be joined back together with Israel.....(Proof Below)

Ezekiel 37:15 "The word of the Lord came again unto me, saying,"

Ezekiel 37:16 "Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: Then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:"

Ezekiel 37:17 "And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."

Ezekiel 37:18 "And when the children of thy People shall speak unto thee, saying, Wilt thou not shew us what thou meanest by these?"

Ezekiel 37:19 "Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in Mine hand."

Ezekiel 37:20 "And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes."

Ezekiel 37:21 "And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be one, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:"

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:"

Ezekiel 37:23 "Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions:"

Those 2 sticks are the nation of Israel and the Jews ,,,they will be joined together in the end.......

 

[whirlwind]

This thread is truly important for us to understand (THE). Knowing what happened, where they went, who they are and...who they are today brings understanding to Scripture. Thank you for posting it.

 

[Drew]

The tribes of Judah and Benjamin (Jews) were captured by Nebuchadnezzar,,,and taken to Babylon after they came out they were called Jews....

So the next time you here someone talking and there acting like,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Israel = Jew ,,,they dont know what there talking about because the Jews and the nation of Israel are 2 different things......2 different nations.....

Misleading. There are indeed times when writer of Scripture refer to "Jews", they are intending a reference to all genetic descendents of Jacob. Paul certainly uses the term "Jew" in a manner that does not reflect the distinction that you assert:

but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Who is the "Jew" here? It is clearly the one who is under the Law of Moses. And this includes members of all 12 tribes. So while, in some contexts, the term "Jew" might well refer to the "southern kingdom" only, that is certainly not the case here.

And this:

17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

Again, Paul clearly uses the term "Jew" to denote those under the Law of Moses. And that includes all 12 tribes. Besides, Paul is alluding to the covenantal promise made to Abraham about how his descendents will be a light to all the nations. Paul is therefore using the term "Jew" here to denote the 12 tribes that sprang from Abraham (by Jacob, of course).

And there are many more examples. For Paul, the term "Jew" most commonly denotes all members of the 12 tribes.

 

[(THE)]

The tribes of Judah and Benjamin (Jews) were captured by Nebuchadnezzar,,,and taken to Babylon after they came out they were called Jews....

So the next time you here someone talking and there acting like,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Israel = Jew ,,,they dont know what there talking about because the Jews and the nation of Israel are 2 different things......2 different nations.....

Misleading. There are indeed times when writer of Scripture refer to "Jews", they are intending a reference to all genetic descendents of Jacob. Paul certainly uses the term "Jew" in a manner that does not reflect the distinction that you assert:

but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11For there is no partiality with God. 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Who is the "Jew" here? It is clearly the one who is under the Law of Moses. And this includes members of all 12 tribes. So while, in some contexts, the term "Jew" might well refer to the "southern kingdom" only, that is certainly not the case here.

And this:

17But if you bear the name "Jew" and rely upon the Law and boast in God, 18and know His will and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, 19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,

Again, Paul clearly uses the term "Jew" to denote those under the Law of Moses. And that includes all 12 tribes. Besides, Paul is alluding to the covenantal promise made to Abraham about how his descendents will be a light to all the nations. Paul is therefore using the term "Jew" here to denote the 12 tribes that sprang from Abraham (by Jacob, of course).

And there are many more examples. For Paul, the term "Jew" most commonly denotes all members of the 12 tribes.


Misleading????? I kept my thoughts short,,,and let God tell the story....

[quote:1wrigx35]Who is the "Jew" here? It is clearly the one who is under the Law of Moses. And this includes members of all 12 tribes. So while, in some contexts, the term "Jew" might well refer to the "southern kingdom" only, that is certainly not the case here.

[/quote:1wrigx35]

The "word" Jew as it is used here in Romans 2:9 was taken from the word "Israelite".....So that pretty much kills your notion in itself......

In the manuscripts it reads "of the Israelite first" the word is "????????" or transliterated "Ioudaios"

It means Judah and the southern kingdoms......
All of Israel including the house of Judah.....

Be careful with Paul and his Greek,,,,,remember he was Hebrew Scholar,,,not a Greek Scholar.....

And there are many more examples. For Paul, the term "Jew" most commonly denotes all members of the 12 tribes.

By all means,,,,present your example.....But please refer back to the manuscripts before you present your case,,,we wouldnt want this to happen again.....

 

[Drew]

The "word" Jew as it is used here in Romans 2:9 was taken from the word "Israelite".....So that pretty much kills your notion in itself......

The word rendered as "Jew" is greek word "????????", as you point out. And, against what you assert, it does not specifically and solely denote "Judah and the southern kingdoms". To assert that it does is to beg the very question at issue. Note definition that the NET offers:

1) Jewish, belonging to the Jewish nation
2) Jewish as respects to birth, origin, religion

This is not the narrow meaning that you are offering.

Besides, as I have already stated, Paul uses the term in such a manner that it is clear that he is equating the "Jew" with those under the Law of Moses.

And, of course, this is the whole 12 tribes, not only the southern kingdom.

 

[(THE)]

The "word" Jew as it is used here in Romans 2:9 was taken from the word "Israelite".....So that pretty much kills your notion in itself......

You are, of course, incorrect.

The word rendered as "Jew" is greek word "????????", as you point out. And, against what you assert, it does not specifically and solely denote "Judah and the southern kingdoms". To assert that it does is to beg the very question at issue. Note definition that the NET offers:

1) Jewish, belonging to the Jewish nation
2) Jewish as respects to birth, origin, religion

This is not the narrow meaning that you are offering.

Besides, as I have already stated, Paul uses the term in such a manner that it is clear that he is equating the "Jew" with those under the Law of Moses.

And, of course, this is the whole 12 tribes, not only the southern kingdom.

Ok I just have a couple of questions.....

How does the Romans 2:9 read in the manucripts???????

Does it say to the "Jew" first,,,,or the "Israelite first????

 

[Drew]

More examples of Paul using the word "Jew" to denote the entirety of the 12 tribes of ethnic Israel:

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Paul is clearly offering us a re-definition of what it means to be a true "Jew". But, for present purposes, the important point is that Paul is contrasting his new definition with the old one -a definition where the "Jew" is the one who is circumcized and under the Law. In short, Paul is saying "Despite the commonly held belief that the identifiers of being a true Jew are circumision and the law, I am telling you something new about what it means to be a "true" Jew after the time of the cross".

So Paul clearly is reacting to the generally held belief that a Jew is someone who is circumcized and under the letter of the Law of Moses.

And that includes all 12 tribes.

And then we have this from the beginning of Romans 3:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

What these "oracles"? The greek word is "logia" and refers to the "utterances or words of God". This is clearly a reference to the Law of Moses. This is confirmed by the reference to their being entrusted with these oracles. To be entrusted with something is to be given it for the benefit of somebody else.

Paul is intending an allusion to this promise made to Abraham:

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.

What is the point? It is that it is specifically Abraham's family - all the 12 tribes that sprang from him - who were entrusted with the Law of Moses at Mount Sinai - that are in view by the use of the term "Jew" in these verses from Romans 3.

 

[Drew]

Ok I just have a couple of questions.....

How does the Romans 2:9 read in the manucripts???????

Does it say to the "Jew" first,,,,or the "Israelite first????

According to my sources, it says to the "????????" first, just as you assert. Now, please tell us why you think this means that this is necessarily a reference to one of the two kingdoms, and not to all ethnic Jews.

And please respect the reader's intelligence - do not give us one example (or even several examples) of where the term "????????" denotes one of these two kingdoms and think that this makes your case.

That would be like providing several examples of the how the term "Yankee" denotes a member of a certain baseball team and then concluding that this sentence:

"The Yankees defeated the confederates"

.....is a reference to a baseball game.

 

[(THE)]

More examples of Paul using the word "Jew" to denote the entirety of the 12 tribes of ethnic Israel:

But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Paul is clearly offering us a re-definition of what it means to be a true "Jew". But, for present purposes, the important point is that Paul is contrasting his new definition with the old one -a definition where the "Jew" is the one who is circumcized and under the Law. In short, Paul is saying "Despite the commonly held belief that the identifiers of being a true Jew are circumision and the law, I am telling you something new about what it means to be a "true" Jew after the time of the cross".

So Paul clearly is reacting to the generally held belief that a Jew is someone who is circumcized and under the letter of the Law of Moses.

And that includes all 12 tribes.

And then we have this from the beginning of Romans 3:

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

What these "oracles"? The greek word is "logia" and refers to the "utterances or words of God". This is clearly a reference to the Law of Moses. This is confirmed by the reference to their being entrusted with these oracles. To be entrusted with something is to be given it for the benefit of somebody else.

Paul is intending an allusion to this promise made to Abraham:

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.

What is the point? It is that it is specifically Abraham's family - all the 12 tribes that sprang from him - who were entrusted with the Law of Moses at Mount Sinai - that are in view by the use of the term "Jew" in these verses from Romans 3.

More examples,,,really Drew?????

Have you not just read further down the page and found the "word" Jew and tryed to continue your thought.....

How about the next you present the word "Jew" you see what the manuscrits say....


Lets look at your argument

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

How does this in anyway Change the fact that the House of Judah are the Jews.....

Matthew 10:6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

DO you see this verse?????? DOes it say Jews ??? does it say Judah ??????

NO ,,the lost sheep that were scattered abroad,,,,it would seem Christ understood the split between Israel..........

 

[(THE)]

Ok I just have a couple of questions.....

How does the Romans 2:9 read in the manucripts???????

Does it say to the "Jew" first,,,,or the "Israelite first????

According to my sources, it says to the "????????" first, just as you assert. Now, please tell us why you think this means that this is necessarily a reference to one of the two kingdoms, and not to all ethnic Jews.

And please respect the reader's intelligence - do not give us one example (or even several examples) of where the term "????????" denotes one of these two kingdoms and think that this makes your case.

That would be like providing several examples of the how the term "Yankee" denotes a member of a certain baseball team and then concluding that this sentence:

"The Yankees defeated the confederates"

.....is a reference to a baseball game.

SO we agree then,,,,, in the manuscripts it Says "Israelites first" and later was translated to read Jew.....

Romans 2:9 "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

SO if it really reads Israelites (and it does) that would mean refering to all 12 tribes,,,,which would line up with simple truth......Because the Israelites recieved the Law and ordinances first....

Would you like to pretend that 1 kings 12 never happened,,,and God didnt split Israel....

 

[Drew]

More examples,,,really Drew?????

Yes, these are additional examples of precisely what I am saying - Paul uses the term "Jew" to refer to the 12 tribes.

Lets look at your argument

Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? 2Great in every respect. First of all, that they were entrusted with the oracles of God.

How does this in anyway Change the fact that the House of Judah are the Jews.....

You are begging the question. You simply assume what you should be actually making a case for. In some cases, yes, the term "Jew" may well mean what you are asserting. But I am making a context-based argument that this is not how Paul uses the term in Romans.

Consider the statement : "The Yankees defeated the confederates". Now suppose I mounted an argument that, from historical context, the term "yankee" here must denote the "armies of the north in the American civil war".

Your objection (above) is similar to someone who would say "And how does that change the fact that the Yankees are a baseball team"?

I hope that you see what I mean. Neither of us can appeal to one of many definitions for a term and simply assume that all uses of that term honour that one definition.

Matthew 10:6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

DO you see this verse?????? DOes it say Jews ??? does it say Judah ??????

NO ,,the lost sheep that were scattered abroad,,,,it would seem Christ understood the split between Israel..........

Well, this is an entirely different text. You seem to be making the following, clearly incorrect argument:

1. Jesus understands that there was an historical split where the 12 tribes fractured into 2 kingdoms - called Israel and Judah;

2. The term "Jew" sometimes denotes a member of the kingdom of Judah;

3. Therefore the term "Jew" can never denote all 12 tribes.

This is clearly not correct. It is like me arguing as follows:

1. Drew understands that there are two baseball teams in New York - the Yankees and the Mets;

2. Any member of the "Yankees" team is referred to as a Yankee;

3. Therefore, in all writings of whatever time period or source, the term "Yankee" must denote a member of the NY Yankees baseball team.

This is clearly incorrect logic. The term "yankee" often refers to an American who lives the northern parts of the USA.

Same with the word "Jew". The fact that it can be used to denote a resident of the southern kingdom does not mean that it is always used in this way. As we see from the content of Paul's argument, he uses the term to refer to any person who is under the Law of Moses.

And that involves all 12 tribes.

And, of course, you have simply ignored the content of my arguments - arguments that show that this is what Paul means. Instead, you seem to simply stand on one definition of the term "Jew". Well, if language were that simple, you would have a point. But as with many words, the term "Jew" has different meanings in different contexts.

 

[Drew]

SO we agree then,,,,, in the manuscripts it Says "Israelites first" and later was translated to read Jew.....

Romans 2:9 "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;"

SO if it really reads Israelites (and it does) that would mean refering to all 12 tribes,,,,which would line up with simple truth......Because the Israelites recieved the Law and ordinances first....

Would you like to pretend that 1 kings 12 never happened,,,and God didnt split Israel....

No. All am I agreeing to is that the greek word rendered as "Jew" in Romans 2:9 is the word ""????????". I do not see anywhere in this thread that you have made an actual case that this word must be read as denoting one of the two kingdoms.

I am not sure what your point here is. The context suggests that Paul is using the term "????????" in 2:9 to denote any person who is under the Law of Moses.

There is nothing at all in any of my arguments that denies that there was a split into two kingdoms. How does the fact that there was such a split make it somehow "illegal" for Paul to define the term "Jew" as he sees fit? It is clear from all the texts that I have provided that he sees the "Jew" as any person under the Law of Moses.

 

[Drew]

If ever there was a text that should put this matter to bed, it is this:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Clearly Paul has divided all of humanity into two groups: "Jews and Gentiles", with the Jews marked out from the Gentiles by virtue of being under the Law of Moses. Now let's see where your definition "Jew = a member of the southern kingdom" gets us.

Consider some simple fellow from one of the 10 lost tribes - let's call him "Schlomo". Of course, Schlomo, by heritage, is under the Law of Moses. Is Schlomo a Jew? Not by your defintion. Is Schlomo a Gentile? Obviously not.

I trust the point is clear. Paul here argues that God is not only God of those who do the works of the Law of Moses- and this would include our friend Schlomo.

And what term does Paul use to denote those who do the works of the Law of Moses?

He uses the term "Jew".

You ( (THE) ) may not like it, but Paul says what he says. The fact that his use of the term "Jew" does not line up with your categories is the not the determining factor. We need to let Paul tell us what he means by the term "Jew". And it is clear, here at least, that a "Jew" is anyone who is under the Law of Moses. And this includes Schlomo.

 

[(THE)]

If ever there was a text that should put this matter to bed, it is this:

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Clearly Paul has divided all of humanity into two groups: "Jews and Gentiles", with the Jews marked out from the Gentiles by virtue of being under the Law of Moses. Now let's see where your definition "Jew = a member of the southern kingdom" gets us.

Consider some simple fellow from one of the 10 lost tribes - let's call him "Schlomo". Of course, Schlomo, by heritage, is under the Law of Moses. Is Schlomo a Jew? Not by your defintion. Is Schlomo a Gentile? Obviously not.

I trust the point is clear. Paul here argues that God is not only God of those who do the works of the Law of Moses- and this would include our friend Schlomo.

And what term does Paul use to denote those who do the works of the Law of Moses?

He uses the term "Jew".

You ( (THE) ) may not like it, but Paul says what he says. The fact that his use of the term "Jew" does not line up with your categories is the not the determining factor. We need to let Paul tell us what he means by the term "Jew". And it is clear, here at least, that a "Jew" is anyone who is under the Law of Moses. And this includes Schlomo.

Can you provide one verse or definiton that says a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses.....

I believe a Jew is a person from the tribe of Benjamin Judah or Levi....

Or

someone can beconsidered a Jew because they live in the Land of Judea.....

Can you provide one verse or definiton that says a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses????????

 

[Drew]

Can you provide one verse or definiton that says a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses.....

I believe a Jew is a person from the tribe of Benjamin Judah or Levi....

Or

someone can beconsidered a Jew because they live in the Land of Judea.....

Can you provide one verse or definiton that says a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses????????

We are going in circles. I have argued in great detail that the context establishes what Paul means by the term "Jew". And you have not engaged those arguments. I suggest that the reason for this is that the arguments are clearly fatal to your position.

That's it for me for now. If someone else enters the discussion, I will rejoin it.

 

[(THE)]

Can you provide one verse or definiton that says a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses.....

I believe a Jew is a person from the tribe of Benjamin Judah or Levi....

Or

someone can beconsidered a Jew because they live in the Land of Judea.....

Can you provide one verse or definiton that says a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses????????

We are going in circles. I have argued in great detail that the context establishes what Paul means by the term "Jew". And you have not engaged those arguments. I suggest that the reason for this is that the arguments are clearly fatal to your position.

That's it for me for now. If someone else enters the discussion, I will rejoin it.

What your doing is reading the scripture and telling me how you see it,,,,and thats ok,,,,what im asking you to do is find any scholar or any bible verse or any dictionary that says.....

a Jew is someone under the Law of Moses,,,can you provide this ???????????

I dont think im asking for to much.......

 

[(THE)]

Ok I just have a couple of questions.....

How does the Romans 2:9 read in the manucripts???????

Does it say to the "Jew" first,,,,or the "Israelite first????

According to my sources, it says to the "????????" first, just as you assert. Now, please tell us why you think this means that this is necessarily a reference to one of the two kingdoms, and not to all ethnic Jews.

And please respect the reader's intelligence - do not give us one example (or even several examples) of where the term "????????" denotes one of these two kingdoms and think that this makes your case.

That would be like providing several examples of the how the term "Yankee" denotes a member of a certain baseball team and then concluding that this sentence:

"The Yankees defeated the confederates"

.....is a reference to a baseball game.

What you are doing is trying to use Paul to void out the Old test......Why are you using the book of Romans to determine what a Jew is,,,,Thats like studying 4-3 defense to learn how to throw a slider.....

If you wanna learn what a Jew is,,we should go to the heart of the matter,,,,We will conclude what a Jew is long before Paul is even born......

SO why do you hide from the Old test????? I have provided evidence of the split verse by verse,,,what you are doing is jumping around looking for the word "Jew" .......

And since you dont understand What a Jew is according to the old test,,,, you abolish it and say lean on Paul,,,the problem is,,,, the subject of Romans 2 is not what a Jew is....SO please stay on subject....

 

[tim-from-pa]

NO ,,the lost sheep that were scattered abroad,,,,it would seem Christ understood the split between Israel..........

I agree. The other ten tribes were "lost" and never returned to the land. No serious historian or Jewish scholar denies this. As a matter of fact, not only did Jesus recognize this, but the gospels emphatically state the Jews did as well as evidenced by the passage in John where Jesus says:

Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.

To which they Jews reply:

Whither will he go, that we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?

As a matter of fact, I can gauge a person's understanding about the core theme of the bible story and their understanding of Israel by how funny they find this passage. Such a person would be rolling on the floor with laughter as this has to be one of the funniest passages in the bible. Jesus is talking about his mission spiritually, and the Jews are mocking him regarding their lost brethren being Gentiles amongst the Gentiles (or, nations). This was poking fun at Jesus because only true Messiah could gather their brethren because they did not know where they all were and all 12 tribes had to be there for Messiah to rule.

To take a typical quote from myriads of Jewish commentaries:

According to the Bible, Tiglath-pileser (II Kings xv. 29) or Shalmaneser (ib. xvii. 6, xviii. 11), after the defeat of Israel, transported the majority of the inhabitants of the Northern Kingdom to Assyria, and placed them in Halah and Habor, on the stream of Gozan, and in the towns of Media. In their stead a mixed multitude was transported to the plains and mountains of Israel. As a large number of prophecies relate to the return of "Israel" to the Holy Land, believers in the literal inspiration of the Scriptures have always labored under a difficulty in regard to the continued existence of the tribes of Israel, with the exception of those of Judah and Levi (or Benjamin), which returned with Ezra and Nehemiah. If the Ten Tribes have disappeared, the literal fulfilment of the prophecies would be impossible; if they have not disappeared, obviously they must exist under a different name. The numerous attempts at identification that have been made constitute some of the most remarkable curiosities of literature.

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... z0Xk87bYBA

Although opinions differ as to who the lost tribes became as a people, it is without question that they never returned to the land of Israel and are exiled to this day.

I take an Anglo-Israel position given that there are scores of prophecies and descriptions in the bible regarding these people (of Israel), so it is just a matter of matching these with present day people just as a detective finds his suspect based on descriptions and is not really reading too much into a passage or being illogical if prophecy is to be fulfilled.

Here is a Jewish gentleman who has such an interesting view. You probably already know about his site.

http://www.britam.org

 

[(THE)]

Its kinda late in Cali,,,I actually havent seen the site you provided so I will check it out in the morning and give reply......

But SO there is no issue of race involved,,I am not a Jew nor am I from the house of Israel and no I am not white.......With that said I can still assure that the 10 lost tribes are now basically what we call white people including anglo-saxon .......

WOW I guess it is some people that still read the Old test....

 

[veteran]

The Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D.) said the name Jew comes from the sole tribe Judah, and those who returned from the 70 years Babylon captivity to rebuild Jerusalem and the 2nd temple is when those first began using that title of Jew. He said also the people in the land began using that title, meaning non-Israelites that lived in Judea. In Esther 8, a Babylon captivity time Book, it's written that many peoples became Jews for fear of the Jews. Josephus also said the ten tribes of Israel were still scattered abroad in his day (100 A.D.), and that they were a great number of people, too many to be numbered.

God's Word also gave many prophecies concerning the two houses of Israel for after their split. And within those prophecies are conditions that were to be fulfilled among only the house of Israel (ten tribes) as contrasted from the house of Judah (Jews). The conditions are to be manifested all the way up to Christ's return, and when looking at the Jews as people (house of Judah) in Jerusalem today, those conditions are not found among them, even though they are part of God's chosen.

To give one such example, Ephraim, one of the sons of Joseph who was a son of Jacob (Israel), was to literally become "a multitude of nations" (Gen.48). That has never been fulfilled among the Jews.

Even many Jewish rabbi understand the ten tribes are still lost to the world today, and are a great number of people, AND, they understand God's Word that they are to be joined back with Judah in final. They'd be foolish to deny it, because what God told Ezekiel in Ezek.37 about the two sticks being put back together is so easy to understand, especially the split of Israel into two separate kingdoms that each had their own king, and began to war against each other per 1 Kings 11 forward.

The Books of Ezra and Nehemiah reveal just which ones returned from the 70 years Babylon captivity to Jerusalem; only a remnant of Judah and Benjamin. None of the other tribes of Israel are mentioned in the lists. Not only that, in Ezra 8 the scribe Ezra looked around at those returning and found none of the sons of Levi returning, so he sent back to Babylon to get Levites for service in the 2nd temple.

The rest of the house of Judah (Judah, Benjamin, and Levi), even the majority of them, remained in Babylon, as God had taken good care of them while in the 70 years captivity. After that they were scattered throug the countries like the ten tribes were. But they never lost their heritage as part of Israel, while the ten tribes did lose their heritage as Israel, as it still is to this day. Those returning to Jeruslaem today are of the house of Judah, Jews, not lost tribe Israelites. And a lot of them are religious Jews, having taken the religion of Judaism, which anyone can do.

God did this because He warned Israel early on in Deut.4 that if they rebelled against Him He would scatter them through the nations, and let the Gentiles rule over them.


This subject is not difficult to discover in God's Word. It is a major part of God's Word, because a lot of Bible prophecy can't be properly understood without first knowing which peoples God is talking about. And quite a bit of it is specifically to the "house of Israel". After the split of Israel into two separate kingdoms when Solomon died, there are several Bible terms God used to specifically point to the ten tribes only. They are "house of Israel", "Samaria", "Ephraim", "house of Joseph", "Aholah", and "Israel".

In the Book of Ezekiel, God specifically told him He made him a prophet to the "house of Israel". That means the ten tribes, separate from the "house of Judah". The Book of Ezekiel of course includes prophecy to the house of Judah also, but a good majority of Ezekiel is specifically about, and given to, the "house of Israel" (ten tribes).

This is a Bible teaching that is a Faith builder, for both believing Israelite and believing Gentile, because it reveals that God's Promises are true, and our Heavenly Father does what He says He's going to do. And one of the things He said about His chosen Israel, was that they will exist forever on the earth, and even there would never fail a man to sit upon David's throne on earth, forever.

Jer 33:23-26
23 Moreover the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying,
24 Considerest thou not what this people have spoken, saying, "The two families which the LORD hath chosen, He hath even cast them off? thus they have despised My people, that they should be no more a nation before them.
25 Thus saith the LORD; If My covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David My servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them."
(KJV)