Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Learning In / By Immersion Baptizo

2024 Website Hosting Fees

Total amount
$905.00
Goal
$1,038.00

eddif

Member
The secular discussion about learning by immersion first got my attention.

Foreign language classes sometimes use the immersion technique. A Spanish class may only speak Spanish during class (except in emergency / needed situations). Actually the Greek baptizo fits. The class is underneath / covered with Spanish.
The Greek language even describes a drunk person as baptizo.

Now my question / thought:
John The Baptist was sent by the Father
and baptized with water. To learn about repentance, would you not put a bubble around The Father, John the Baptist, repentance and water. In this situation would you actually learn about the subject more fully?

Then the baptism of Jesus could be put in a bubble that only discusses the baptism of Jesus. You would only graduate from / into Christ Jesus till you knew all about that subject (baptized into Christ).

Then the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be taught as immersion / baptizo course. You would have the course regardless of being: Jew, Gentile, Baptist, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, etc.
If you got kicked out of class, you would not pass the class.

Give a redneck a little feedback.

Just take area by area and no dragging in other subjects.

Baptize in:
The Fathers Baptism (John?)
The Sons Baptism (Jesus)
The Holy Spirits Baptism (Holy)

LOL

eddif
 
Baptize in:
The Fathers Baptism (John?)
The Sons Baptism (Jesus)
The Holy Spirits Baptism (Holy)

Essentially you are talking about programming people to follow an 'offical' set of beliefs.

While there is a great need for Christians to learn what and why they belief a system like you propose gives the impression of a cult.

As for learning about the Spirit, we can learn through bible study, but w really learn about the Spirit by doing.
 
Essentially you are talking about programming people to follow an 'offical' set of beliefs.

While there is a great need for Christians to learn what and why they belief a system like you propose gives the impression of a cult.

As for learning about the Spirit, we can learn through bible study, but w really learn about the Spirit by doing.
I see your point.

When you read the great commission they are required to teach all things Jesus had commanded them, That would include warnings not to teach error.

I Kings 11 is an example of the leading of King Solomon away by his foreign wives. Solomon’s heart was not perfect / complete toward God as was his father David. David was after God’s heart. Did David never sin? No. King David suffered for his sins and repented over and over. Being after Gods heart does not mean perfection before the resurrection.
so
Yes an Immersion teaching system would have to be monitored,
But
Do we not already have cults today that teach false doctrine. Do we not seek to loose people from error? If we just back off and let error get worse (without speaking out) are we not in error.

To discern good and evil is a spiritual gift. Teaching about spiritual gifts is necessary. Just because there are several groups with error did not stop Paul from teaching about the Spirit and
the Diversity from God the Father and administration by Jesus. I think we just cringe and draw away from any deep discussion.

Thanks for the warning .

We immersion teach about the Father.
We immersion teach about Jesus the Son
We immersion teach about the Holy Spirit
(Do we?)

Mississippi redneck (hopefully not a cult leader)
eddif
 
I just thought through why I may be pushed toward this method. A new pastor arrived and asked the question ( do you want an in depth study or an overview on Wednesday night?). The majority chose overview. So Covid hits and some classes are combined in Sunday School ( I wasn’t the teacher). I did not know I am a stickler for detail. No one wanted to worry about error details in the literature. I guess my approach is I am to see that baptizo takes place and not just a single drop of information.

I guess I see an overview as rewriting the Great Commission to read ( teaching a little bit of some of what I said and by all means avoid anything that might cause a lively discussion that might cause me to be in you). LOL

Chill redneck
eddif
 
Ok
So what was the error in the literature. Every mention of the advantage of a Jewish heritage was deleted from Romans. Were some Jews terrible? Yes. Were all Jews bad? No. Were Gentiles without God for a time? Yes.
Could the left out scripture be discussed? Why no.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
You have those who just want a slice of the pie as that is good enough for them. Then you have those who want the whole pie, plus that extra slice to fill the whole belly. Here is the whole pie plus an extra slice.

Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

The Mikveh (meaning a collection of water) in the OT was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion. Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. In Priestly law, the ultimate purpose of ritual purification was to protect God's sanctuary, the tabernacle, from contamination, Leviticus chapter 15.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (IE. Baptism of Christ) was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.


Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for repentance or the remission of sin, but had to associate with humanity in order to fulfill prophecy.
 
You have those who just want a slice of the pie as that is good enough for them. Then you have those who want the whole pie, plus that extra slice to fill the whole belly. Here is the whole pie plus an extra slice.

Lev 16:23 And Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall put off the linen garments, which he put on when he went into the holy place, and shall leave them there:
Lev 16:24 And he shall wash his flesh with water in the holy place, and put on his garments, and come forth, and offer his burnt offering, and the burnt offering of the people, and make an atonement for himself, and for the people.

The Mikveh (meaning a collection of water) in the OT was a bath used for the purpose of ritual immersion. Several biblical regulations specify that full immersion in water is required to regain ritual purity after ritually impure incidents have occurred. In Priestly law, the ultimate purpose of ritual purification was to protect God's sanctuary, the tabernacle, from contamination, Leviticus chapter 15.

The Mikveh, being a shadow of John's baptism and the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (IE. Baptism of Christ) was for purification, not for remission of sin, like that of what Esaias prophesied saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight, Isaiah 40:3. In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins, Matthew 3:1-6. John said, I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire, Matthew 3:11.


Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. John's water baptism was only for repentance as being prepared for the coming of the Lord as the water represented the washing away of sin, or as John put it "prepare ye the way of the Lord". It is not clear in scripture that Jesus ever baptized anyone in water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of prophecy as He had to identify with humanity even though He had no sin. This was the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day as God gave Him full power and authority here on earth and there after Jesus went about teaching the disciples as it was not Jesus who the Pharisees heard that He baptized more than John did, John 4:1-3 but His disciples baptizing others in water for remission of sin after the death of John the Baptist as all together they would have baptized others in water for the remission of sin then John could at one time. Jesus could not baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit until the day of Pentecost after He ascended up to the Father and the Father sent down the indwelling Holy Spirit, Acts 2.

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water, word of God, that no one can enter into the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the hearing of the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. God's word is living water as described in John 4:4-26; 7:37-39; 12:44-50; Ephesians 5:26; 1 John 5:5-8; Jeremiah 17:13; Zechariah 14:8, 9; Rev 21:6-8; Ezekiel 47:22.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

There is the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent first. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you repented, accepted Jesus and was indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Baptism is not mentioned in John chapter three so why do so many believe we are to be dunked in dirty river water as the water can not bring about Gods salvation, but only by faith do we believe as it comes by Gods grace, Ephesians 2:1-10, as we hear the gospel (word/living water) preached to us.

This is what the Jerusalem Bible says:
John 3:3 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born from above, he can not see the kingdom of God."
John 3:5-7 "I tell you most solemnly, unless a man is born through water and the Spirit, he can not enter the kingdom of God. What is born of the flesh is flesh,(sin nature) what is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not be surprised when I say you must be born from above.

One needs to hear the word of God, as word being living water, in order to know they have to be born again of the Spirit in order to see and enter the kingdom of God.

John's baptism was literal, but yet symbolic for cleansing after one repented of their sin. Notice in Mark 1:8 I have baptized you with (actual) water, but he (Jesus) will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. (Not water, but baptize you with the Holy Spirit after you have repented and made clean again through the washing of the word as you become a new creation in Christ.

Jesus never baptized anyone in literal water that we know of and also instructed the Disciples to wait upon the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Acts chapter 1, and then commissioned them to go out preaching the Gospel (word/living water) and to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:16-20.

Being born from above means being born from the heavenly word of God, not dirty river water. When Jesus was baptized by John it was for the fulfillment of Messiah come as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him. Jesus had no need of being baptized in water for repentance or the remission of sin, but had to associate with humanity in order to fulfill prophecy.
That’s pretty good for an introduction. Feel free to start us on a 9 week course on each area.

I heard a radio preacher once say ( folks think I may know a lot, but what I know is like the light that comes under a door from a lighted room — I know just enough to know that there must be a tremondus amount of light / knowledge in that room).

If we see through welding goggles we can be in a super lighted area and see only a small amount (glass darkly).

The world itself could not contain the books about all that Jesus said and did (from redneck memory).

eddif
 
I expect John’s baptism starts breaking up a hardened heart. Got to get good ground for good seed.

The quickening spirit of the second Adam directs our heart of flesh (if we open the door).

The spirit of the mind may distribute spiritual gifts that start growth to witness to others.

eddif
 
Before one can seek to do that one has to know the truth and be able to give a reason for the hope/belief that one has.
Matthew 7:7 kjv
7. “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

James 1:5 kjv
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
Galatians 6:1 kjv
1. Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

eddif
 
Matthew 7:7 kjv
7. “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

James 1:5 kjv
5. If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

And how ready are those in your church to make the effort to knock on the door of the bible and read it, or to read or listen to appologeic lectures like William lane Craig at reasonablefaith.

Yes God will give wisdom, but one has to recieve it and use it.
As Paul writes he trains his body, like a marathon runner.

Learning, getting wisom takes effort. Just as resiting temptation takes effort.
 
And how ready are those in your church to make the effort to knock on the door of the bible and read it, or to read or listen to appologeic lectures like William lane Craig at reasonablefaith.

Yes God will give wisdom, but one has to recieve it and use it.
As Paul writes he trains his body, like a marathon runner.

Learning, getting wisom takes effort. Just as resiting temptation takes effort.
I Corinthians 1:12 kjv
12. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14. I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

17. For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

Who Me
I hope we belong to the same gathering / church. It is never about the side notes in commentaries or theological discussions. It is about Jesus Christ.
As a Mississippi redneck I can get off on what I believe, and if it agrees with scripture that might be ok. We all have differing callings, and the diversity sometimes throws us into shock. I like the letters to the churches. Sometimes our group is on track and sometimes not, but there should be a uniting in Christ Jesus, and the Holy Spirit should lead us all into truth.
Please feel free to express thoughts here at any time.

Now the terrible answer to your question. Most people just stand by the door afraid to open the door and have the quickening spirit of Jesus come in and upset their thoughts.

You are free to try and let the Holy Spirit define which part of the body of Christ the two of us are. Office? Gifts? Practice? Real? False? True? Discerner of spirits?

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
I would say most preachers will not feed there people strong meat.
I can agree with that on a couple of levels, but also see where preachers should not try and cram too much meat on the table.

This thread is about taking a concept and immersing the conversation into all the aspects of that concept. Ephesians 6 has some of the appropriate points for such a (strong meat) conversation.
I am ok if you wish to have a (high level general conversation of strong meat teaching). I do not know if I am up to it, but we can try out immersion, if you care to.

I guess I can start by saying:
A family that has thrust themselves into a slavery situation owing for houses, land, education, vehicles, sports, recreation, public service, etc.
Is probably
Going to fit the Ephesians 6 ( do slavery service as unto the Lord).

This is up to you. You may not want to go into this. You brought up strong meat. As a married person with two kids, three grandkids I may have room to look into Spiritual Gifts ( just an example of strong meat), but the family (on a physical level) may suffer some as I do this. There is persecution for those who seek.

Mississippi redneck
eddif
 
In 20 days this thread stayed dormant. There just needs to be several one new men from both sources.

In fact we might need to discuss the Jewish advantage vs supersessionism. Thus inviting both groups that have something that contributed to the one new man.

Ephesians early chapters.

eddif
 
Back
Top