With so much talk about Jewish feasts, trumps, etc. I thought I'd post a link of a dispensational Jewish convert.
http://www.levitt.com/
http://www.levitt.com/
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Leviit or leave it! (lol)
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
Vic C.
Member
So far, I agree with his placement of the ekklesia's catching up.
http://www.levitt.com/faqs.html#shofar
8-)
http://www.levitt.com/faqs.html#shofar
8-)
Vic said:
Really! They believe the Church is Raptured at the second coming in Rev. 4 and Christ returns for His elect Israel in Matt. 24:31...just like I do! They see the Church as the bride and the Jewish nation as the elect of God...at least that's what I read...I could be wrong...but this is what the Jewish Christian sites keep saying about the Rapture. The Trumpet sounding in Rev. 4 begins the judgement of Israel, while the Bride is snatch away to be with Christ.
Quote: A trumpet will also be blown at the Rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:16) and when Jesus returns to earth and all the Jewish “elect†are gathered back to Israel (Matthew 24:31).
I could be mistaken, HELP!
lol
Vic C.
Member
I believe what he is saying is there are three trumps of God (this has also come up in my studies).
First trump... "During the Feast of Trumpets on the first day of the seventh month (Tishri), the blowing of trumpets is done to begin the celebration of this Feast (Leviticus 23:23–25)"
final or last trump... "A trumpet will also be blown at the Rapture of the Church (1 Thes. 4:16)' (why they call this the "final trump"? :smt102 )
Great trump... "Jesus returns to earth and all the Jewish “elect†are gathered back to Israel (Matthew 24:31)"
I see Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thess 4:16-17 as the same event. Matthew 24:31 doesn't specifically suggest Jesus has physically returned to Earth. It says He 'comes in the clouds'. This could be literal, or it could mean He comes with a crowd of people. Clouds is sometimes used to mean that.
Amyway, it also says He sends His angels to gather the elect. I may be wrong, but isn't it the Lord, with the help of the sealed 144,000, who will be gathering up Israel and leading them to their land? I see :angel:s in Matthew 24:31
What I agreed with was that 1 Thess 4:16-17 is where the catching up takes place. What has been debated is "when" this takes place. I believe it takes place somewhere late in the second 3 1/2 years. I "see" the Great trump as happenning sometime right after the end of the 70th. week.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Interesting, I read it so differently. I see Rev. 4:1 and read it literally. It says John and I have no reason or scripture to think orherwise. I don't see the first couple of seals to be part of the Great Tribulation, though I do believe thay are part of the 70th. week. I don't see the judgement of Isreal until after the Wrath begins (at the opening of the seventh seal. My reason is because I don't believe the Great Tribulation is from God.
I think who the bride is may still be up to how you interpret the ten virgins parable. http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#219333
I don't think it's just the "church". It couled be Israel, depending on how you see the "wedding traditions" fitting in. I tend to believe it is both the ekklesia and believing Israel.
I try to follow a simple rule: if it makes good sense, seek no other sense, in case it because non-sense. I see you follow the same rule Vic, so I ask you to consider the following.
Quote: This is when Israel fasts and repents before God before He judges them. Then a series of a silver trumpets sound while God's Judgment on Israel is poured out. The book of Revelation parallels the entire trumpet judgment to a tee. Before the time of judgment comes, the Last Trump is blown first . Then and only then can the trumpet judgments begin. When the Last Trump of God is blown, it is then the Bride of Christ is snatched away! Some argue that we cannot know when the Rapture comes. This true because we have to wait and see when Jesus will come with His best man (archangel) and sound the Last Trump.
1. The Last Trump is blown first
2. The silver trumpets sound Judgement on ISRAEL
Quote: What is also very interesting is that when a Jewish man comes for his bride on an unknown day that she knows not, the best man blows the Shofar ( Last Trump ). The groom come unexpectedly to snatch his bride away and to take her to her father's house. Only when the father declared it was time for the son to snatch his bride away could the son go and get her. Only the Father knows when the time comes because he is the one that decides when. The son never knew when the father would declare the time. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36
1. When a Jewish man comes for His bride = When Christ comes for His bride (the Church, not Israel)
2. Shofar (Last Trump which is blown first) is sounded.
3. Snatches Bride = Rapture's Church
4. Only the Father knows when it'll happen = same with the coming of Christ
Quote: When the Last Trump of God is blown, it is then the Bride of Christ is snatched away! Some argue that we cannot know when the Rapture comes. This true because we have to wait and see when Jesus will come with His best man (archangel) and sound the Last Trump.
1. The Bride is snatched away = Rapture at the Last Trump which is blow before the Judgement upon Israel
2. Cannot know the time of this snatching away
The Messanic Jewish site these quotes were taken from finish up with this: Because the churches have removed themselves from the Jewish root, the Post Tribulation doctrine has found rich fertile ground in which to grow.
I still see the pre-wrath view as post trib.
Peace Vic, waiting to hear back from you.
JM
Quote: This is when Israel fasts and repents before God before He judges them. Then a series of a silver trumpets sound while God's Judgment on Israel is poured out. The book of Revelation parallels the entire trumpet judgment to a tee. Before the time of judgment comes, the Last Trump is blown first . Then and only then can the trumpet judgments begin. When the Last Trump of God is blown, it is then the Bride of Christ is snatched away! Some argue that we cannot know when the Rapture comes. This true because we have to wait and see when Jesus will come with His best man (archangel) and sound the Last Trump.
1. The Last Trump is blown first
2. The silver trumpets sound Judgement on ISRAEL
Quote: What is also very interesting is that when a Jewish man comes for his bride on an unknown day that she knows not, the best man blows the Shofar ( Last Trump ). The groom come unexpectedly to snatch his bride away and to take her to her father's house. Only when the father declared it was time for the son to snatch his bride away could the son go and get her. Only the Father knows when the time comes because he is the one that decides when. The son never knew when the father would declare the time. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Matt 24:36
1. When a Jewish man comes for His bride = When Christ comes for His bride (the Church, not Israel)
2. Shofar (Last Trump which is blown first) is sounded.
3. Snatches Bride = Rapture's Church
4. Only the Father knows when it'll happen = same with the coming of Christ
Quote: When the Last Trump of God is blown, it is then the Bride of Christ is snatched away! Some argue that we cannot know when the Rapture comes. This true because we have to wait and see when Jesus will come with His best man (archangel) and sound the Last Trump.
1. The Bride is snatched away = Rapture at the Last Trump which is blow before the Judgement upon Israel
2. Cannot know the time of this snatching away
The Messanic Jewish site these quotes were taken from finish up with this: Because the churches have removed themselves from the Jewish root, the Post Tribulation doctrine has found rich fertile ground in which to grow.
I still see the pre-wrath view as post trib.
Peace Vic, waiting to hear back from you.
JM
Interesting notes and quotes!
The Time of Rosh Hashanah begins with the sound of the great Shofar Trumpet. It is also refered to as the Awaking Blast.
Col 2:16-17 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Everything God has done or will do is expressed in the Jewish Feasts. Notice how it says "new moon." The new moon is when Rosh Hashanah begins. Also look at this passage,
1Thes 5:3-4 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The term (Last) Trump is only used only 2 times in scripture:
TRUMP: 1Thes 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)
LAST TRUMP: 1 Cor 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (KJV)
The feast of Rosh Hashanah is called the Last Trump. Paul was a Jew writing to a Jewish audience. He knew full well what the term Last Trump meant. AFTER the time of the Last Trump comes the time of Yom Kippur. This is referred to as the Day of Atonement which includes the judgements of the trumpets as seen in the book of Revelation.
Rev 8:6 "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."
FIRST comes the Last Trump (singular) known as Rosh Hashanah. SECOND comes the Trumpets (plural) known as Yom Kippur.
The above list scriptures regarding the Last Trump is clearly seen as the Rapture of the Church. The 7 trumpets of Revelation is clearly seen as the time of God's judgements on the earth. It is very clear from scripture that the Last Trump and the 7 trumpets are very different and at different times. One is the Rapture followed by the 7 trumpets of judgement.
The Last Trump only sounds when two witnesses spot the new moon which could be at any time.
Here is the only two places in the entire Bible that the word Trump is used. The names of Rosh Hashanah are in capitals.
1Thes 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV) 1 Cor 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (KJV)
Also look at this verse:
Ps 47:5
"God is gone up with a SHOUT, the LORD with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET." (KJV)
Rosh Hashanah is also referred to as being the time of the open door or gate. It is a time when all heaven has it's door open to allow people in.
Rev 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a DOOR was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." (KJV)
Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the DOOR, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the DOOR (heaven), I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (KJV)
In Rev. 1:10 we read:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a GREAT VOICE (shout), as of a TRUMPET." (KJV)
Now look what it says just two chapters over and again is in verse 10:
Rev 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV)
The Time of Rosh Hashanah begins with the sound of the great Shofar Trumpet. It is also refered to as the Awaking Blast.
Col 2:16-17 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Everything God has done or will do is expressed in the Jewish Feasts. Notice how it says "new moon." The new moon is when Rosh Hashanah begins. Also look at this passage,
1Thes 5:3-4 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
The term (Last) Trump is only used only 2 times in scripture:
TRUMP: 1Thes 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (KJV)
LAST TRUMP: 1 Cor 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (KJV)
The feast of Rosh Hashanah is called the Last Trump. Paul was a Jew writing to a Jewish audience. He knew full well what the term Last Trump meant. AFTER the time of the Last Trump comes the time of Yom Kippur. This is referred to as the Day of Atonement which includes the judgements of the trumpets as seen in the book of Revelation.
Rev 8:6 "And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound."
FIRST comes the Last Trump (singular) known as Rosh Hashanah. SECOND comes the Trumpets (plural) known as Yom Kippur.
The above list scriptures regarding the Last Trump is clearly seen as the Rapture of the Church. The 7 trumpets of Revelation is clearly seen as the time of God's judgements on the earth. It is very clear from scripture that the Last Trump and the 7 trumpets are very different and at different times. One is the Rapture followed by the 7 trumpets of judgement.
The Last Trump only sounds when two witnesses spot the new moon which could be at any time.
Here is the only two places in the entire Bible that the word Trump is used. The names of Rosh Hashanah are in capitals.
1Thes 4:16-18
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the voice of the archangel, and with the TRUMP of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (KJV) 1 Cor 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMP: for the trumpet shall SOUND, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed." (KJV)
Also look at this verse:
Ps 47:5
"God is gone up with a SHOUT, the LORD with the SOUND OF A TRUMPET." (KJV)
Rosh Hashanah is also referred to as being the time of the open door or gate. It is a time when all heaven has it's door open to allow people in.
Rev 4:1 "After this I looked, and, behold, a DOOR was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." (KJV)
Rev 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the DOOR, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the DOOR (heaven), I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (KJV)
In Rev. 1:10 we read:
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a GREAT VOICE (shout), as of a TRUMPET." (KJV)
Now look what it says just two chapters over and again is in verse 10:
Rev 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (KJV)
G
Georges
Guest
Wait......hold on.....consider this.......stay with me and read this post....you can do your own research to prove it out......
In regards to the trumpets.....
In Judaism.....
The First and the Last (or Second) trumps come from the horns of the Ram that was sacrificed in Issac's place. These are the left and right horns or shofars from that Ram.
The Issac/Ram incident is known as the "Akedah" and is associated with Rosh Hashanah. This can be found in http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com under the article of "Shofar" and "Rosh Hashanah".
These are totally independent of the Great Trump of Yom Kippur, or the Judgment trumps.
According to Judaism,
The First trump (left horn) was blown at Sinai to call the Israelites to the Mount (Ex 19:13-24) this occurred on, and is the first "Pentecost", or in Judaism "Shavout".
The Last trump (right horn) will be blown to gather the Israelites (yes that includes believing Christians (Proselytes in Spirit) together to enter into the kingdom.
*interesting to note that in Jewish tradition, the rest of the ram's body parts were used for other items.....ie. the sinews where uses as the strings on David's harp etc.
Bottom Line:
First Trump: Pentecost (past)
Last (Second Trump): Rosh Hashanah (future)
Judgment Trumps: Days of Awe (future)
Great Trump: Yom Kippur (future)
In regards to the trumpets.....
In Judaism.....
The First and the Last (or Second) trumps come from the horns of the Ram that was sacrificed in Issac's place. These are the left and right horns or shofars from that Ram.
The Issac/Ram incident is known as the "Akedah" and is associated with Rosh Hashanah. This can be found in http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com under the article of "Shofar" and "Rosh Hashanah".
These are totally independent of the Great Trump of Yom Kippur, or the Judgment trumps.
According to Judaism,
The First trump (left horn) was blown at Sinai to call the Israelites to the Mount (Ex 19:13-24) this occurred on, and is the first "Pentecost", or in Judaism "Shavout".
The Last trump (right horn) will be blown to gather the Israelites (yes that includes believing Christians (Proselytes in Spirit) together to enter into the kingdom.
*interesting to note that in Jewish tradition, the rest of the ram's body parts were used for other items.....ie. the sinews where uses as the strings on David's harp etc.
Bottom Line:
First Trump: Pentecost (past)
Last (Second Trump): Rosh Hashanah (future)
Judgment Trumps: Days of Awe (future)
Great Trump: Yom Kippur (future)
G
Georges
Guest
another interesting note about Judaism and Trumpets....again please do the research and check it out.....
In Judaism:
Rosh Hashanah: Feast of Trumpets, has many names and themes associated with this day....It is a day known as the day when the "Gates of Heaven are open".
Yom Kippur: Feast of Atonement. The Great Trump was blown (yearly) to signify the "Gates of Heaven" are closed. I believe this was the Neilah in the Yom Kippur service.
Interesting to note that the whole repentence theme between RH and YK match's the call to repentence during the tribulation period perfectly. The period of the chande to repent ends with the Great trump of that final YK and the closing of the Gates of Heaven. What does that mean? That means by the end of the tribulation period, if sinners haven't repented of thier sins by the time of the Closing of the Gates....to bad cause Christ is coming to Judge....
In Judaism:
Rosh Hashanah: Feast of Trumpets, has many names and themes associated with this day....It is a day known as the day when the "Gates of Heaven are open".
Yom Kippur: Feast of Atonement. The Great Trump was blown (yearly) to signify the "Gates of Heaven" are closed. I believe this was the Neilah in the Yom Kippur service.
Interesting to note that the whole repentence theme between RH and YK match's the call to repentence during the tribulation period perfectly. The period of the chande to repent ends with the Great trump of that final YK and the closing of the Gates of Heaven. What does that mean? That means by the end of the tribulation period, if sinners haven't repented of thier sins by the time of the Closing of the Gates....to bad cause Christ is coming to Judge....
G
Georges
Guest
BTW, Zola is very good....his TV shows pretty good as well.
If any get a chance to see his Passover show it is well worth the effort. I was fortunate enough to be at the taping.....I'm in a few shots of the crowd...you can recognize me...I'm the one with the shiny forehead (receding hairline, ha ha).
I do believe that Zola supports a pretrib rapture. I'm very conviced that he believes it will be on a future Rosh Hashanah.
If any get a chance to see his Passover show it is well worth the effort. I was fortunate enough to be at the taping.....I'm in a few shots of the crowd...you can recognize me...I'm the one with the shiny forehead (receding hairline, ha ha).
I do believe that Zola supports a pretrib rapture. I'm very conviced that he believes it will be on a future Rosh Hashanah.
G
Georges
Guest
Don't know if I can do that......I am short 5'8" and been called Simple ;-).
In Short.....I don't know.
1. I do believe that there will be a rapture at a period of 7 (days, or years) before the 2nd coming.
2. I do believe the trib period is 7 years and that the 7 years ends with the coming of the Messiah.
3. I do believe that the Great Tribulation is in the later part of the tribulation period and that Christians/Believers will be raptured before that time.
To me there is evidence to support either, or both.
If the rapture doesn't happen when the False Messiah appears, then I'll be looking for it to happen on a Rosh Hashanah 7 days before the 2nd coming.
It is a complicated
Vic C.
Member
Interesting that they rely on "two Witnesses"; could this be 'related' with to the two witnesses in Revelation and if so, when do these two witnesses show up in Revelation? Is it before or after 4:1?
I see a distinct difference between these two verses. One says "descend from heaven with a shout" and the other says "God is gone up with a shout". "Descend" and "gone up" are two different directions.
True... and it's also referred to as a time of memorial.
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm
The "Door" verses are compelling at first, but I notice differences in the events of 1 Thess 4:16 and Revelation 4:1.
1 Thess 4:16 says the Lord descends with the voice of the archangel AND with the trump of God. Revelation 4:1 just mentions a voice that sounds like a trumpet... no voice of the archangel mentioned. This may be nothing, but it could be significant.
I have questions about the meaning of this verse which I haven't reconciled as of yet. What is the "Lord's Day"? Is it the day of ressurrection, is it the Sabbath or is it in reference to The Day of the Lord? If it is the last, we find ourselves somewhere past Revelation 6:17. This puts us way past Rev. 4:1.
Aah, this verse has been beaten to death as far as trying to interpret and debate it. I have posted several times about what it says. I believe, regardless of what Geo says ( ;) ) that we must look at the Greek, specifically the meaning of the word keep and kept. I had asked James for his opinion of this verse, knowing he has a grasp on the Greek language. No word from him on it yet.
Vic C.
Member
LOL. I got you beat, if we are counting down, that is. I'm 5'6".Georges said:
Good posts Georges.
This takes on the feel of what 'they' call a post trib rapture (or Post Wrath, as it should be called). It accounts for the 144,000 and any Jewish 'converts' that somehow survive the Wrath. What it doesn't account for though is 1 Thess 5:9, which is one of the reasons I embraced the PreWrath position.
Maybe the PanTrib position is the best one of all. LOL
:Rev. 3:10, I noticed the word 'hour' which maybe useful in considering the 'time' they are kept from.
I thought about that, but if the a trumpet is sounded by the best man (The Angel), the voice aspect could be mere symbolism...notice trump, single not trumps.
You've got me. I've read it's Sunday, but I don't know. I don't think it's that important...could be wrong.
What do you think about the Church not being mentioned between chpt. 4 and 19? Or the 17 times the Church is mentioned until Rev. 4:1 and then not again until 19?
In Rev. 4:1 the 'voice' doesn't mean speaken, it refers to 'a sound, a tone.' It could be a trumpet.
I thought about that, but if the a trumpet is sounded by the best man (The Angel), the voice aspect could be mere symbolism...notice trump, single not trumps.
You've got me. I've read it's Sunday, but I don't know. I don't think it's that important...could be wrong.
What do you think about the Church not being mentioned between chpt. 4 and 19? Or the 17 times the Church is mentioned until Rev. 4:1 and then not again until 19?
In Rev. 4:1 the 'voice' doesn't mean speaken, it refers to 'a sound, a tone.' It could be a trumpet.
G
Georges
Guest
In regard to "The Revelation of Jesus" the Greek must be consulted as far as words, definitions and grammer are concerned, but what must be considered above that (in my opinion) is that the interpretation of the passages should be made from a Hebraic position. In other words, how would the Jewish Christians of the First Century interpret the Revelation.
Revelation is the most Jewish book in the NT and should be treated and interpreted as such.
Having said that,
The "Lord's Day" is the Greek translation of the Hebrew "Day of the Lord". In Judaica, The Day of the Lord includes the Tribulation and Messianic Kingdom period together.
John was taken in spirit to view the Day of the Lord. That includes the Tribulation Rev 6-19, Millennial Kingdom period Rev 20, and beyond Rev 20-.
In keeping with the 7 days of creation 7000 years of human history, the Day of the Lord is the 1000 year Millennial Sabbath Kingdom period.
Vic C.
Member
Yes, the hour of temptation. I believe the hour of temptation is the Great Tribulation and the faithful 'church' (Philadelphia) will be protected from the mark and persecution by Mr. Antichrist. I see no reason to call God's Wrath tempting by any stretch. lol. I see this verse as a promise of protection, not removal.JM said:
I feel it makes no difference if they are mentioned or not. Actually, I don't see the church specifically mentioned in Ch. 19 either. There is mention of a great multitude in Revelation 19:6, but if we are to attach the 'church' to this verse, we must also do the same with Revelation 7:9.
I also don't see the church mentioned in Chs. 20 and 21 either. Should we assume the 'church' is missing from the millennium and events succeeding it?
All the above is food for thought.
Vic C.
Member
Oh goodness, I'm just not getting any of this from Scripture. I see "Day of the Lord" 20 times in the OT alone and each passage seems to be addressing God's Wrath but no persecution from The Adversary.Georges said:
I'm just not seeing where the Great Tribulation is attributed to the entire 70th. week. Sorry.
Plus I still have that nagging question about Matthew 24:22. What is Jesus referring to if Daniel suggests the 70th week is a full 7 year period? What exactly is He shortening? If the Great Tribulation is an event seperate from the Day of the Lord, this is easily reconciled.
G
Georges
Guest
Vic,
As you are quoting me, I will address your comments...
Vic....God uses all elements to chastise his people....even "The Adversary", wouldn't you agree with that....He certainly uses Kings in the OT to chastise Israel. Is the AC the Great Tribulation?no. Is he part of it? Yes.....
Neither do I....never said it did. The Tribulation isn't limited to the Great Tribulation. Tribulation is Tribulation no matter how small. The tribulation period is likened to Birthpains...small at first, great at the end. The OT has many instances of that imagery.
Shorten can also mean bring to an end...as meaning punishment. The verse simply amplifies the seriousness and damage of the GT. It's birthpains.....7 years worth culminating in the birth (return of Christ).
Day of the Lord is both....being versed in the OT, the disciples knew the difference between the two as being 2 events under the same name/day description.
As you are quoting me, I will address your comments...
Vic....God uses all elements to chastise his people....even "The Adversary", wouldn't you agree with that....He certainly uses Kings in the OT to chastise Israel. Is the AC the Great Tribulation?no. Is he part of it? Yes.....
Neither do I....never said it did. The Tribulation isn't limited to the Great Tribulation. Tribulation is Tribulation no matter how small. The tribulation period is likened to Birthpains...small at first, great at the end. The OT has many instances of that imagery.
Shorten can also mean bring to an end...as meaning punishment. The verse simply amplifies the seriousness and damage of the GT. It's birthpains.....7 years worth culminating in the birth (return of Christ).
Day of the Lord is both....being versed in the OT, the disciples knew the difference between the two as being 2 events under the same name/day description.