Limited Atonement, God's Longsuffering and the Meaning of the Word "All"

[Ernest T. Bass]

Calvinists, in trying to prove John Calvin's idea of a limited atonement, will sometimes avoid the primary meaning of the word 'all' (pas).

The primary meaning of the word all means each and everyone universally but Calvinists try and use a secondary meaning as in 'all of a certain group'.

Example:

2 Pet 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."


According to Calvinism's limited atonement, all here does not carry its primary meaning where all means each and every person but 'all' here means 'all of a certain group', a group that God supposedly chose unconditionally before the world began to be saved.


If 'all' here does not refer to each person universally but only refers to all of a group God predetemined to be saved, then:

1) why is God longsuffering to this group that He already predetemined that will saved? 2 Pet 3:15 the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation so why is God longsuffering for what He has already predetemined will happen?


2) Calvinists will also use Rom 9:22 as proof that God did not elect each and every person to be saved but God "fitted" some to be lost.

Rom 9:22 "[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:"

But God is also longsuffering to this 'not chosen', unsaved group.

So from 2 Pet 3:9 God is longsuffering to all but all, according to Calvinists, only refers to the prechosen saved group, yet from Rom 9:22 God is also longsuffering to the non-chosen unsaved group. Yet the chosen and non-chosen make up all- each and every person.

So how can the Calvinist argue that "all" in 2 Pet 3:9 can only refer to all the chosen ones only and not to the non-chosen also when God is longsuffering towards both groups? Or in other words, how can Calvinists limit God's longsuffering to all of one group only in 2 Pet 3:9 when God is longsuffering to all universally? (the chosen in 2 Pet 3:9 and the unchosen in Rom 9:22)

3) why is God longsuffering in Rom 9:22 towards a group that God has already predetermined to be lost?

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

The primary meaning of the word all means each and everyone universally

In the context its[all] is limited to the usward, those whom Peter was writing, the Elect of God. We know that by the 1 Pet 1:1-2 and those who had received like precious faith 2 Pet 1:1 . So God was not willing for none of the elect who were yet to be born at the time Peter wrote, that none of them shall persih but they too would come to Repentance. And God's Longsuffering regarding them is Salvation Peter went on to write a few verse later here 2 Pet 3:15

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

That should settle the issue !

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Very good reasoning Ernest.
No argument here.
Yes, another lesson in the Bible you have taught me.
Thank you.

 

[savedbygrace57]

why is God longsuffering in Rom 9:22
towards a group that God has already predetermined to be lost?

To multiply the sum total of all their sins to be punished for in the day of Judgment. They will all be destroyed together Ps 37:38

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

God has a day reserved for them specifically Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

eb



In the context its[all] is limited to the usward, those whom Peter was writing, the Elect of God. We know that by the 1 Pet 1:1-2 and those who had received like precious faith 2 Pet 1:1 . So God was not willing for none of the elect who were yet to be born at the time Peter wrote, that none of them shall persih but they too would come to Repentance. And God's Longsuffering regarding them is Salvation Peter went on to write a few verse later here 2 Pet 3:15

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

That should settle the issue !

1) My point was God is longsuffering to the "all" in 2 Pet 3:9. You say the "all" in this verse only refers to those God supposedly chose before the world began. But God is not longsuffering only to the chosen but is also longsuffering to the unchosen in Rom 9:22. So how can you limit the 'all' in 2 Pet 3:9 to the chosen only when God is longsuffering to both the chosen and unchosen?

2) the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation, 2 Pet 3:15. If God has already predetemined what individuals will be saved and lost and nothing can change what God has predetemined, then why is God longsuffering about what He has already predetemined?


3) what grammar rule says the indefinite pronoun any (tis) must refer to usward?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Very good reasoning Ernest.
No argument here.
Yes, another lesson in the Bible you have taught me.
Thank you.

Thank you for your comment. I was afraid I would not be able to clearly get my point across on what I was thinking about this issue but apparently I did.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

To multiply the sum total of all their sins to be punished for in the day of Judgment. They will all be destroyed together Ps 37:38

But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

God has a day reserved for them specifically Job 21:30

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.

2 Pet 3:15 "And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; "


Since the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation, then why would God be longsuffering to those "fitted vessels of wrath" in Rom 9:22 that God has already determined them to be lost with no hope, no chance of being saved?

Where does the bible say the purpose of God's longsuffering is "To multiply the sum total of all their sins to be punished for in the day of Judgment"?

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

Since the purpose of God's longsuffering is salvation, then why would God be
longsuffering to those "fitted vessels of wrath" in Rom
9:22

See post 4

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

1

) My point was God is longsuffering to the "all" in 2
Pet 3:9.

Sure, all the Elect !

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

eb



In the context its[all] is limited to the usward, those whom Peter was writing, the Elect of God. We know that by the 1 Pet 1:1-2 and those who had received like precious faith 2 Pet 1:1 . So God was not willing for none of the elect who were yet to be born at the time Peter wrote, that none of them shall persih but they too would come to Repentance. And God's Longsuffering regarding them is Salvation Peter went on to write a few verse later here 2 Pet 3:15

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

That should settle the issue !

I'm sorry savedbygrace57, but your response here doesn't make sense to me.
Could you please reword it to help my understanding?
I would greatly appreciate it.

 

[savedbygrace57]

allen

I'm sorry savedbygrace57, but your response here doesn't make sense to
me.

I cannot help that !

 

[Butch5]

allen



I cannot help that !

See, if you applied the word "cannot" in 1 John as you have here you wouldn't have the contradiction with John's other statement. In case this is confusing I am referring to the other thread where we were discussing John saying the one born of God cannot sin. It's obvious that you are not unable to help that.

 

[savedbygrace57]

See, if you applied the word "cannot" in 1 John as you have here you wouldn't have the contradiction with John's other statement. In case this is confusing I am referring to the other thread where we were discussing John saying the one born of God cannot sin. It's obvious that you are not unable to help that.

Different subject matter !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

eb



See post 4

Post 4 doesn't answer the question,

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

eb

1

Sure, all the Elect !

Rom 9:22 says God is longsuffering to the supposed non-elect vessels of wrath also. So God in not longsuffering to the elect only so how can you then limit 'all' in 2 Pet 3:9 to the elect only?

 

[savedbygrace57]

Rom 9:22 says God is longsuffering to the supposed non-elect vessels of wrath also. So God in not longsuffering to the elect only so how can you then limit 'all' in 2 Pet 3:9 to the elect only?

God's Longsuffering has differet purposes for different people groups, for the Elect its Salvation, for the None Elect its for damnation !

 

[savedbygrace57]

Post 4 doesn't answer the question,

Yes it does ! You reject the answer, thats on you !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

God's Longsuffering has differet purposes for different people groups, for the Elect its Salvation, for the None Elect its for damnation !

You quoted the verse yourself from 2 Pet 3:15 that God's longsuffering is for salvation. In 2 Pet 3:9 God's longsuffering in that verses is so not any should perish but all come to repentance.

So here are two verses that say God's longsuffering is for salvation. What verse says God's longsuffering is for damnation? And why have longsuffering for something that is already predetemined?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes it does ! You reject the answer, thats on you !

No. You have serious problems within your theology that you are not able to explain, so you pulled some verse out of the OT that does not answer the issue but only claims that it does.

 

[savedbygrace57]

eb

No.

Yes !