crossnote
Member
Oh, I agree, but I’m not sure we could handle it if He showed us that darkness.
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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
Limited atonement !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Dorothy Mae
Member
Isaiah and Job took it and were better men for knowing the truth. He can be trusted.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I rest my case. The “world” doesn’t mean the world. God wants every man to repent doesn’t mean “every” man. Those are changed to mean the opposite of the normal understanding.
Actually, it is true that some will understand evolution but choose to reject the evidence on the basis of faith, or else out of fear of this "new" idea and the desire to return to the old idea of creationism. This is well-known.
Dorothy Mae
Member
I have to laugh. It’s actually true of those embraced evolution (man from non-man) until they see the actual evidence. They stick to evolution out of fear.
Romans 8 Teaches Particular Redemption
Romans 8 is also contrary to universal atonement. Verses 28-30 speak of a people whom God foreknew, predestinated, called according to His purpose, justified, glorified and conformed to the image of His Son. The apostle draws the following conclusion: “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (31). “Then” or “therefore” indicates that this is a logical inference based on his preceding statements, here called “these things.” The “us” can only be those predestinated (or elected) and called according to God’s eternal purpose (28-30). Paul’s argument is this: If God is “for us” (31) in predestination, calling, justification and glorification (29-30), then “who can be against us?” (31). In other words, if God in His eternal decree has chosen us to everlasting bliss, called us out of darkness into His marvellous light, acquitted us of all our sins and reckoned us righteous with the very righteousness of Christ Himself, and glorified us in conforming us to the image of His Son, then “who can be against us?” (31).
The apostle reinforces this already compelling argument with another: “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” (32). Who are the “us” referred to twice here for whom God sent the Saviour to die? Again, they are those predestinated and called according to God’s eternal purpose (28-30). The only conclusion is that Christ died for the elect.
If it is objected that the Lord Jesus also died for the non-elect, then we reply that the passage gives absolutely no hint of this. In fact, this would make the passage teach that God sent His Son to die for those who are not predestinated and not called, justified, glorified or conformed to Christ. Moreover, if it is argued that the Saviour died for the reprobate, this would make the passage teach that the reprobate will receive all the blessings of His cross, for verse 32 teaches that God freely gives “all things” to those for whom Christ died. The “all things” include freedom from the law of sin and death (2), life and peace (6), adoption as God’s sons (14), the witness of the Spirit (16), an eternal inheritance (17), the redemption of the body at the resurrection of the just (23), the ability to pray in the Spirit (26), etc. Furthermore, the “all things” would also include the blessings of justification, calling, glorification and conformity to Christ according to God’s eternal predestination (28-30)! To read universal atonement into Romans 8:32 would mean that God freely gives the blessings of calling, justification and glorification to the reprobate, those whom He never calls, justifies or glorifies. This verse teaches an absolutely inseparable connection between those for whom Christ died and all these spiritual blessings. Some do not receive these blessings; therefore, the Saviour did not die for them.
Next Romans 8 declares that no charge (33) and no condemnation (34) can be laid against those who are justified (33), those for whom Christ died (34). But many charges are righteously made by the God of heaven against the reprobate wicked so that they are condemned! This is the case because they are not justified (33), for Jesus did not die for them and does not intercede for them (34).
https://cprc.co.uk/pamphlets2/forwhomdidchristdie/
Romans 8 is also contrary to universal atonement. Verses 28-30 speak of a people whom God foreknew, predestinated, called according to His purpose, justified, glorified and conformed to the image of His Son. The apostle draws the following conclusion: “What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?” (31). “Then” or “therefore” indicates that this is a logical inference based on his preceding statements, here called “these things.” The “us” can only be those predestinated (or elected) and called according to God’s eternal purpose (28-30). Paul’s argument is this: If God is “for us” (31) in predestination, calling, justification and glorification (29-30), then “who can be against us?” (31). In other words, if God in His eternal decree has chosen us to everlasting bliss, called us out of darkness into His marvellous light, acquitted us of all our sins and reckoned us righteous with the very righteousness of Christ Himself, and glorified us in conforming us to the image of His Son, then “who can be against us?” (31).
The apostle reinforces this already compelling argument with another: “He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?” (32). Who are the “us” referred to twice here for whom God sent the Saviour to die? Again, they are those predestinated and called according to God’s eternal purpose (28-30). The only conclusion is that Christ died for the elect.
If it is objected that the Lord Jesus also died for the non-elect, then we reply that the passage gives absolutely no hint of this. In fact, this would make the passage teach that God sent His Son to die for those who are not predestinated and not called, justified, glorified or conformed to Christ. Moreover, if it is argued that the Saviour died for the reprobate, this would make the passage teach that the reprobate will receive all the blessings of His cross, for verse 32 teaches that God freely gives “all things” to those for whom Christ died. The “all things” include freedom from the law of sin and death (2), life and peace (6), adoption as God’s sons (14), the witness of the Spirit (16), an eternal inheritance (17), the redemption of the body at the resurrection of the just (23), the ability to pray in the Spirit (26), etc. Furthermore, the “all things” would also include the blessings of justification, calling, glorification and conformity to Christ according to God’s eternal predestination (28-30)! To read universal atonement into Romans 8:32 would mean that God freely gives the blessings of calling, justification and glorification to the reprobate, those whom He never calls, justifies or glorifies. This verse teaches an absolutely inseparable connection between those for whom Christ died and all these spiritual blessings. Some do not receive these blessings; therefore, the Saviour did not die for them.
Next Romans 8 declares that no charge (33) and no condemnation (34) can be laid against those who are justified (33), those for whom Christ died (34). But many charges are righteously made by the God of heaven against the reprobate wicked so that they are condemned! This is the case because they are not justified (33), for Jesus did not die for them and does not intercede for them (34).
https://cprc.co.uk/pamphlets2/forwhomdidchristdie/
You obviously dont understand how God uses words opposed to how the natural man does.
I accepted evolution due to nothing but evidence. A huge mountain of it.
Are you a "natural man"? If so, aren't you discounting your own argument?
And Dorothy Mae isn't a man.
Dorothy Mae
Member
You don’t work in science. Those who’ve rejected work there.
Dorothy Mae
Member
It isn’t God changing the meaning.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Pretty funny but by one definition I am a man, a hu-man. I’m not playing with words. If God says to me as He’s done to others, “Stand up and talk to me like a man” He is just in doing so.
Who said God changes meanings ?
Post 486 do you understand it ?
The vast majority of people opposed to evolution are not scientists, so you're wrong on that point. Yes, the people who write books against evolution work in science. Because no one would care if a non-scientist wrote a book against evolution, for good reason.
In an archaic meaning, yes.
brightfame52 There are Calvinists who think Romans 8-9 teaches predestination, but who still think limited atonement is false ("four-point Calvinists").
Dorothy Mae
Member
You did. If God is supposedly using words with different meanings than people (“natural man” whatever that is) have defined that word to
mean, He is changing the meaning.
Now you won’t be able to find an example of this in the Bible where God speaks of His love for the world but doesn’t really mean the world, This is actually close to deceiving people.
Dorothy Mae
Member
Absolutely
Dorothy Mae
Member
Evolution discussions belong elsewhere.
Good point, I'll stop discussing it here.
Dorothy Mae
Member
A few points:
But there’s no scripture that he prechose some for heaven and some for hell.
Verse 38: Those who love God measured by obeying Him and are called according to Him purpose, for them all things work together for good. Who can stand against those not “chosen” but fulfill those two conditions.
have heard the message and repented and believe…whosoever they are.
Not at all. God gave his son for the world, John3:16, and whosoever will can become one of those for whom Jesus died. It actually says Jesus died for sinners, not the righteous (“the sick need a doctor, not the righteous.) While we were yet sinners (reprobate) he died of us.
You use past tense. The text is future…to be conformed to the image of His son. By using past it paints it as a done deal. The text is future which is not a done deal but depends upon our cooperation, “today if you hear his voice do not harden your heart.”
Once a part of his kingdom, the predestined plan is to be conformed to become like Jesus. This is not identifying particular people chosen for heaven. “Whosoever will..”
But there’s no scripture that he prechose some for heaven and some for hell.
Verse 38: Those who love God measured by obeying Him and are called according to Him purpose, for them all things work together for good. Who can stand against those not “chosen” but fulfill those two conditions.
Not at all. The “us” are those who
have heard the message and repented and believe…whosoever they are.
Not at all. God gave his son for the world, John3:16, and whosoever will can become one of those for whom Jesus died. It actually says Jesus died for sinners, not the righteous (“the sick need a doctor, not the righteous.) While we were yet sinners (reprobate) he died of us.
Well, Jesus died for them but they refused.
As impressive as the link looks, one can see it have holes…even though I have no link.