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”How can God judge as guilty, those whom he has not predestined to faith in His Son?"
That seems to be the same question Paul was expecting of his readers in Romans. He probably asked the question because in his preaching he came across the same question as yours 1,000 times. Notice he never answers the question.

This is the ESV (English Standard Version)
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Again, "why does He still find fault" sounds exactly like your "How can God judge those He has not elected."

What was Paul's answer? He basically rebukes the person for asking the question in the first place: "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

Does not the potter (creator of the universe) have the right to make one for honorable use and another for dishonorable?

You people who get upset at this idea would answer Paul with an emphatic NO. God does not have the right.
 
That seems to be the same question Paul was expecting of his readers in Romans. He probably asked the question because in his preaching he came across the same question as yours 1,000 times. Notice he never answers the question.

This is the ESV (English Standard Version)
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Rom 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Rom 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”
Rom 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

Again, "why does He still find fault" sounds exactly like your "How can God judge those He has not elected."

What was Paul's answer? He basically rebukes the person for asking the question in the first place: "But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?"

Does not the potter (creator of the universe) have the right to make one for honorable use and another for dishonorable?

You people who get upset at this idea would answer Paul with an emphatic NO. God does not have the right.
That's all fine and dandy, only problem is that I'm not part of the "You people who get upset", this was just an honest question/inquiry on my part.
 
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In that case one needs to ask the Lord for wisdom, why ‘it pleased the Lord to crush Him’…

Isaiah 53:10 NASB
[10] But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.
This verse you cited has the answer within it, because the guilt offering would "see his offspring" and "prolong his days" and he would continually do Gods pleasure.
These things are contrary to guilt born of sin, so repentance and restoration are caused by knowing the sin of placing guilt on Thee Innocent.
So...it seems God was pleased to crush his Son, as this would cause people to consider the wrong done to him and turn.
You know, dear Christian, that our Father

scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. Heb.12:6

and our Savior was no exception. He goes on to say,

If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons Heb.12:7

The Father was pleased that his Son endured chastening. And his only begotten Son didn't need it...except as an example to us that we do.
 
No. Sinners will be condemned for rejecting the witness God gave them,

Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Mt.21:31-32
No sinner Christ died for shall be condemned for anything. Havent you ever read Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
 
No sinner Christ died for shall be condemned for anything. Havent you ever read Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
I've read Romans many times. The passage you cited is built on the prior chapters, where Pail comments on how circumcision won't help them. It's obvious from Acts and the Letters that problems occured between Jews and gentiles in the early church. Some of the Jews weren't Christian, so Paul is teaching that they can't lay any charge to believers. Paul is in no way teaching that repentance isn't required for salvation.
 
That seems to be the same question Paul was expecting of his readers in Romans. He probably asked the question because in his preaching he came across the same question as yours 1,000 times. Notice he never answers the question.

This is the ESV (English Standard Version)
Rom 9:18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
I think if people truly look at how the Potter "forms" the clay in Jer.18, they will see that in Rom.8, Paul is teaching that the more someone rebels against God, the harder he becomes.
Paul isn't teaching that God wants certain people to rebel against him. He's teaching that certain people harden themselves to Gods character.
 
I think if people truly look at how the Potter "forms" the clay in Jer.18, they will see that in Rom.8, Paul is teaching that the more someone rebels against God, the harder he becomes.
Paul isn't teaching that God wants certain people to rebel against him. He's teaching that certain people harden themselves to Gods character
That is the usual answer to get away from what Paul is saying. Just because there is a potter forming clay in the Old Testament, that does not mean that Paul has to stick to its exact meaning.

If your view is true, then why is Paul expecting people to say “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

Nobody would find fault in God letting somebody get harder if they rebel.

Only the Calvinist interpretation elicits that kind of response.
 
That is the usual answer to get away from what Paul is saying. Just because there is a potter forming clay in the Old Testament, that does not mean that Paul has to stick to its exact meaning.
That isn't the usual answer. I didn get that answer from a commentary, but from praying for an answer to all scripture in accordance with Jas.5: and I doubt you can find any commentary that interprets Pauls' use of the Potter that way.
If your view is true, then why is Paul expecting people to say “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”
Because Paul cited,

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. Rom.9:15, Exo.33:19,

and Paul expected his listeners to know that God has mercy on the humble and resists the proud (too many scriptures to list.)
Whaterer:
Nobody would find fault in God letting somebody get harder if they rebel.
Unless God sent a nobody with a demand to a King who was worshipped as a god, like he did to Pharaoh. This is also why James says,

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? Jas.2:5

Or when Paul says,

For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 1Cor.1:26

Of course they arent saying, "No rich, famous, etc. people are chosen." They're merely saying it's more difficult for such people to trust God.
Only the Calvinist interpretation elicits that kind of response.
I think the Calvinist interpretation has twisted Pauls' writings beyond sense.
 
I've read Romans many times. The passage you cited is built on the prior chapters, where Pail comments on how circumcision won't help them. It's obvious from Acts and the Letters that problems occured between Jews and gentiles in the early church. Some of the Jews weren't Christian, so Paul is teaching that they can't lay any charge to believers. Paul is in no way teaching that repentance isn't required for salvation.
The prior chapters dont change the fact that Christs death was for the elect.
 
The prior chapters dont change the fact that Christs death was for the elect.
And Paul is saying the elect are those who live by faith, not people who are physically circumcised,

For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision something that is outward in the flesh, but someone is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart by the Spirit and not by the written code. This person's praise is not from people but from God. Rom.2:28-29

You can see how some Jews in the early church wanted gentile converts to be circumcised by reading Acts 15.
 
And Paul is saying the elect are those who live by faith, not people who are physically circumcised,

For a person is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision something that is outward in the flesh, but someone is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart by the Spirit and not by the written code. This person's praise is not from people but from God. Rom.2:28-29

You can see how some Jews in the early church wanted gentile converts to be circumcised by reading Acts 15.
The elect shall live by Faith. However they arent born living by Faith, they are born ungodly, thats why Jesus died for them. Only the Elect come to Faith, because only them Christ died for.
 
and Paul expected his listeners to know that God has mercy on the humble and resists the proud (too many scriptures to list.)
So you are saying that this is all Paul is saying in the Romans passage? Again, nobody would have a quarrel about that. But Paul is expecting a quarrel where people are basically saying "that isn't fair." This doesn't fit.

Again, this is the English Standard Version
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Verse 8, it is not the children of the flesh (Jews) who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

If I understand the Jewish historical context, they believed that God promised the Jews that they were the people of God. If all of a sudden Jews are not being saved and Gentiles are, that seems unjust. That seems to one of the main arguments the Pharisee's had when arguing with Jesus: "Abraham is our father." Now Paul is saying that doesn't matter, not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring

Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Human will is the Greek word ethelō 2309 in Strongs = to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.

The word exertion there is trechō 5143 in Strongs = properly, to run (like an athlete competing in the ancient Greek games); (figuratively) advance speedily, like an athlete moving forward with full effort and directed purpose.
tréxō) ("running wide-open") conveys intense desire to get to the goal as quickly as possible.
5143 (tréxō) was used of "runners in a race, of swiftness or of effort to attain an end

Paul says God's mercy does not depend upon any of the characteristics above. Your verses of God giving grace to the humble and resisting the proud just might be limited to those who are already His. Paul is talking who the elect are.
 
The elect shall live by Faith. However they arent born living by Faith, they are born ungodly, thats why Jesus died for them. Only the Elect come to Faith, because only them Christ died for.
Our Lord came into this world so that all sinners would have reason to come to faith in God, because all sinners are born with the capacity to understand (aside from people who have mental challenges.)
God doesn't choose people arbitrarily, because the Bible says,

Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. Eze.33:17

Read the whole chapter. It shows how God sends messengers to all sinners for the purpose of repentance. That's why God himself came in flesh.
 
Our Lord came into this world so that all sinners would have reason to come to faith in God, because all sinners are born with the capacity to understand
That is a human assumption.

Jeremiah 6:10
To whom can I speak and give warning?
Who will listen to me?
Their ears are closed
so they cannot hear.
The word of the Lord is offensive to them;
they find no pleasure in it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Better get your theology in line with what scripture teaches, rather than man made wishes.
 
So you are saying that this is all Paul is saying in the Romans passage? Again, nobody would have a quarrel about that. But Paul is expecting a quarrel where people are basically saying "that isn't fair." This doesn't fit.
The early church did have a quarrel,

This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. Act.15:2
Again, this is the English Standard Version
Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

Verse 8, it is not the children of the flesh (Jews) who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means!

If I understand the Jewish historical context, they believed that God promised the Jews that they were the people of God. If all of a sudden Jews are not being saved and Gentiles are, that seems unjust.
It's not that Jews weren't being saved. The problem was, Jews believed if gentiles didn't become physically circumcised, they couldn't be saved, (Act.15:1)

there rose upcertain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. Act.15:5
That seems to one of the main arguments the Pharisee's had when arguing with Jesus: "Abraham is our father." Now Paul is saying that doesn't matter, not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring
Our Lord taught the same thing,

I know that ye are Abraham's seed Jn.8:37
compare with,
If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. Jn.8:39
Rom 9:15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Human will is the Greek word ethelō 2309 in Strongs = to desire (wish, will), wanting what is best (optimal) because someone is ready and willing to act.

The word exertion there is trechō 5143 in Strongs = properly, to run (like an athlete competing in the ancient Greek games); (figuratively) advance speedily, like an athlete moving forward with full effort and directed purpose.
tréxō) ("running wide-open") conveys intense desire to get to the goal as quickly as possible.
5143 (tréxō) was used of "runners in a race, of swiftness or of effort to attain an end

Paul says God's mercy does not depend upon any of the characteristics above. Your verses of God giving grace to the humble and resisting the proud just might be limited to those who are already His. Paul is talking who the elect are.
Paul is talking about anyone who realizes he needs forgivness and so is dependent on God,

if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? Jn.8:46

There's no reason not to believe him.
 
That is a human assumption.

Jeremiah 6:10
To whom can I speak and give warning?
Who will listen to me?
Their ears are closed
so they cannot hear.
The word of the Lord is offensive to them;
they find no pleasure in it.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

Better get your theology in line with what scripture teaches, rather than man made wishes.
Please read the chapter you cited. God is saying the reason he will send calamity and destruction among them is because they're not listening to him,

Be thou instructed, O Jerusalem, lest my soul depart from thee; lest I make thee desolate, a land not inhabited. Jer.6:8

Jesus taught the same thing in Lk.13:1-5 and Mt.12:41-42
 
Our Lord came into this world so that all sinners would have reason to come to faith in God, because all sinners are born with the capacity to understand (aside from people who have mental challenges.)
God doesn't choose people arbitrarily, because the Bible says,

Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. Eze.33:17

Read the whole chapter. It shows how God sends messengers to all sinners for the purpose of repentance. That's why God himself came in flesh.
Thats False, Christ came to Justify His Elect. He didnt die for all ungodly sinners, only some.
 
Thats False, Christ came to Justify His Elect. He didnt die for all ungodly sinners, only some.
No it isn't false. It's the reason I believe in God,

Through him you now trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. 1Pet.1:21

This is why I believe in our Lord. Why do you believe in him?
 
Please read the chapter you cited. God is saying the reason he will send calamity and destruction among them is because they're not listening to him,
Buy it is clear to a person who understands the whole of Scripture that they did not listen was because God had a plan. Them listening at that time was not part of the plan.

Isa 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.

Romans 11:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

It is clear to me that the Sovereign God of the Bible created Israel to have a people, but only a chosen number of them were to be saved, the rest are hardened and passed over and eventually the Messiah would come that national Israel would reject Him and thus open the door for God to bring in His chosen Gentiles, who together would make up the Spiritual Israel God intended all along. (I know - long sentence, but I flunked English)
 
Buy it is clear to a person who understands the whole of Scripture that they did not listen was because God had a plan. Them listening at that time was not part of the plan.

Isa 10:22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

Romans 9:27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel be like the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved; 28 for the Lord will execute His word on the earth, thoroughly and quickly.

Romans 11:
5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written,
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes to see not and ears to hear not,
Down to this very day.”

It is clear to me that the Sovereign God of the Bible created Israel to have a people, but only a chosen number of them were to be saved, the rest are hardened and passed over and eventually the Messiah would come that national Israel would reject Him and thus open the door for God to bring in His chosen Gentiles, who together would make up the Spiritual Israel God intended all along. (I know - long sentence, but I flunked English)I have no problem with the scripture you're citing, because when Pauls' chain of reasoning is examined, it's obvious he's saying the elect, or chosen, are believers,
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom.4:3

But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
Rom.4:24

Scripture teaches this from front to back,

to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. Isa.66:2

Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Mt.18:3

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world, rich in faith, Jas.2:5
 
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