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Matthew 18:8-9 problem.

Orion

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8If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.

9And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

If anyone is experiencing anti-social behavior, it makes much more sense to seek professional help to sway that wrong behavior than simply maiming yourself. :-? That does nothing for the person. The wrong has to be addressed before the person is freed from whatever their "sin" is.
 
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Solo

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Orion said:
If anyone is experiencing anti-social behavior, it makes much more sense to seek professional help to sway that wrong behavior than simply maiming yourself. :-? That does nothing for the person. The wrong has to be addressed before the person is freed from whatever their "sin" is.
Well if you cannot stop sinning by looking at women with lust in your heart for them, then pluck your eyes out and that will cure the problem. A little more drastic then stopping the sin by walking in the Spirit instead of the flesh, but effective nonetheless.

If you do not like the Scripture of Matthew 18:8-9 you will have to ask Jesus to correct it according to Orion's outlook on life, since Orion knows best.
 

Orion

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Who is to say that Jesus actually even said that? Seems like another hold over of those Hammurabi codes. :-?

If someone, who lusts after a woman, gouges his eyes out, . . . how will that help him? Just because he can't SEE a woman doesn't mean that the mind can't generate all sorts of images and lusts. His lack of eyes does nothing.

Maiming yourself, rather than exposing and working on the problem, is not a wise decision!
 
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sisterchristian

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Romans 13:14 says.... But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provisions for the flesh in regard to it's lusts.
 
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Solo

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Orion said:
Who is to say that Jesus actually even said that? Seems like another hold over of those Hammurabi codes. :-?

If someone, who lusts after a woman, gouges his eyes out, . . . how will that help him? Just because he can't SEE a woman doesn't mean that the mind can't generate all sorts of images and lusts. His lack of eyes does nothing.

Maiming yourself, rather than exposing and working on the problem, is not a wise decision!
You have shown your inability to believe, and you have shown you unbelief towards the Word of God.

You, my friend, are in need.
 

jgredline

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Ok, I deleted the posts that are nonsense...

Orion, as for your question regarding the Matt passage....

6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to sin, it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!
8 “If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire.
10 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.


Look at the context...Jesus is speaking to all those who were preaching heresy..False teachers....It was a problem back then, just as it is today..
So anyone who causes an offense to one of Gods children ''woe'' unto u''

Jesus quickly changes who his target audience is and turns into the fire and brimstone preacher he was and is now talking about the severity of sin...Jesus is not teaching about self mutilation...How do I know this? Because that would not ''fix'' the problem...The problem is of the heart....
You need to fix the root...If a person has a problem with drinking, he does not go to the liquor store to by milk...He begins to fix the problem by avoiding the street that the liquor store is in all together....These people who were being mislead by the false teachers are to be avoided because they will lead folks down a path of destruction....Notice what the consequence is...''everlasting fire'' a fire that never goes out...The implication is that the soul will burn forever....
 

Drew

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Solo said:
You have shown your inability to believe, and you have shown you unbelief towards the Word of God.

You, my friend, are in need.
How is this not avoidance of the question that Orion asked and an attempt to make the issue the presence or absence of belief on the part of Orion?

He asked a specific question and you have responded with a statement about his belief or lack thereof.
 
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Solo

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Drew said:
How is this not avoidance of the question that Orion asked and an attempt to make the issue the presence or absence of belief on the part of Orion?

He asked a specific question and you have responded with a statement about his belief or lack thereof.
There is no answer that will be acceptable to one who does not believe the Word of God.

No one who denies the Word of God is born again. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in one who does not recognize the Word of God.

That is precisely why I have discerned your lack of being born again.
 

cyberjosh

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Self-mutilation is not in view here. Origin took it too literally and castrated himself. Jesus is speaking of ceasing to do things which tempt you by killing it at its source. What causes your eyes to look at something lewd? Your inward desires. Attack that by God's power and pray for him to remove those desires. The Bible says do not make provision for the flesh, that's what Jesus is talking about here.

~Josh
 

jgredline

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cybershark5886 said:
Self-mutilation is not in view here. Origin took it too literally and castrated himself. Jesus is speaking of ceasing to do things which tempt you by killing it at its source. What causes your eyes to look at something lewd? Your inward desires. Attack that by God's power and pray for him to remove those desires. The Bible says do not make provision for the flesh, that's what Jesus is talking about here.

~Josh

Yep, thats what I said...Josh Thanks for the cd...I look forward to spending some time with it this weekend :)
 
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Rick W

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jgredline said:
Jesus is not teaching about self mutilation...How do I know this? Because that would not ''fix'' the problem...The problem is of the heart....

cybershark5886 said:
Self-mutilation is not in view here. Origin took it too literally and castrated himself. Jesus is speaking of ceasing to do things which tempt you by killing it at its source. What causes your eyes to look at something lewd? Your inward desires. Attack that by God's power and pray for him to remove those desires. The Bible says do not make provision for the flesh, that's what Jesus is talking about here.

~Josh

And demonstrating the seriousness of sin.



"The problem is of the heart"

"Attack that by God's power and pray for him to remove those desires."


Romans 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
 

n2thelight

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Hope this helps

Matthew 18:8 "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire."

God has given us His health laws that show us how to protect our physical bodies. Those health laws tell us what to eat and what not to eat so we can live a healthy life. When you break one of the health laws the punishment is sickness to this flesh body, which could end in the death of this flesh body.

Why then would He tell us to mutilate the flesh body for the sake of the soul, when through His laws, He stresses our protection of it. The answer is; He doesn't, and mutilation is not what is talked about here.

This is in reference to the protection of that many membered body of Christ. He is talking about those members of the many membered body of Christ, that if you cannot conduct yourself as part of that body of Christ, as one of these children of His kingdom, and you bring offences to those that are, you are to be separated from the main body, while you are offensive. Sometimes God allows troublemakers to become part of a church, to be a thorn to them, and this can be tolerated. However, Jesus is telling us that it is best to just tell them to leave, rather then have them cause others to fall.

Matthew 18:9 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire."

This is directed to those in the church that are to be the watchmen. Those that watch that which is taught is from God's Word, and keeping the eye out for the well being of the church body. It is better to go with less understanding of God's Word, and dig it out for yourselves, then put up with allowing someone to steer the body of Christ into some other path. Little children don't act that way, it would be someone that thinks that they know it all, and trying to add something new to God's Word.
 

Orion

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Solo said:
There is no answer that will be acceptable to one who does not believe the Word of God.

No one who denies the Word of God is born again. There is no indwelling of the Holy Spirit in one who does not recognize the Word of God.

That is precisely why I have discerned your lack of being born again.


Is it DAVID'S words that he is writing in the Psalms, or just God's words and David is just writing them down for God? Is David expressing how he feels to God, or is God telling David how to feel?

If you say, "the latter on both questions", . . . . does that even make sense?

Sometimes I wonder if Christians worship the Bible more than they should, . . .which should be never.
 
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Solo

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Orion said:
Is it DAVID'S words that he is writing in the Psalms, or just God's words and David is just writing them down for God? Is David expressing how he feels to God, or is God telling David how to feel?

If you say, "the latter on both questions", . . . . does that even make sense?

Sometimes I wonder if Christians worship the Bible more than they should, . . .which should be never.
Your earlier post doubted whether Jesus' words were actually Jesus' words or not:
  • ~Orion wrote: Who is to say that Jesus actually even said that? Seems like another hold over of those Hammurabi codes.
Now you wonder whether the words in the Psalms are David's or God's.

Also, those who know the Bible as the Word of God do not worship the Bible, but know the Bible to be God's Word.

Here are a couple of articles for you to read:
  • QUESTION: Don't King James Bible believer's "worship" the Bible? Didn't God destroy the originals because He didn't want these people to venerate them?

    ANSWER: No and no.

    EXPLANATION: Many critics of the perfect Bible have become very frustrated in recent years. This is due to the fact that their entire argument against the Bible has been systematically destroyed by historical fact, their own shortfall of scholastic ability and the consistent blessing of the King James Bible by the Holy Spirit.

    In a desperate attempt to "sling mud" at Bible believers, they make the two statements found above.

    Do King James Bible believers worship the Bible? No. They do not pray to it as they do to Jesus Christ. They do not preach that "the Bible saves" but that Jesus saves. They blissfully mark notes all over their Bibles, though none would dare to do so to Jesus Christ.

    There is not even enough evidence to mistakenly believe that King James Bible believers worship the Bible. Therefore, the charge is unfortunately born of malice not sincerity.

    Did God destroy the originals to keep King James Bible believers from someday worshipping them? No. Nothing could be farther from fact.

    God allowed the originals to pass off the scene because their only value, was their words, which He preserved through copies. Once the originals had served their purpose and were copied, they received no loyalty from God or His people.

    If the originals were somehow to "miraculously" appear today, they would be of little interest to Bible believers since they make little of them now.

    If anyone would venerate them, it would probably be the crowd that makes so much of them today, the Bible critics.

    Retrieved from http://www.chick.com/reading/books/158/158_21.asp
AND:
  • Question: "Is the Bible truly God's Word?"

    Answer: Our answer to this question will not only determine how we view the Bible and its importance to our lives, but also it will ultimately will have an eternal impact on us. If the Bible is truly God’s Word, then we should cherish it, study it, obey it, and ultimately trust it. If the Bible is the Word of God then to dismiss it is to dismiss God Himself.

    The fact that God gave us the Bible is an evidence and illustration of His love for us. The term "revelation" simply means that God communicated to mankind what He is like and how we can have a right relationship with Him. These are things that we could not have known had not God divinely revealed them to us in the Bible. Although God’s revelation of Himself in the Bible was given progressively over approximately 1500 years, it has always contained everything that man needed to know about God in order to have a right relationship with Him. If the Bible is truly the Word of God, then it is the final authority for all matters of faith, religious practice, and morals.

    The question we must ask ourselves is how can we know that the Bible is the Word of God and not just a good book? What is unique about the Bible that sets it apart from all other religious books ever written? Is there any evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word? These are the type of questions that must be looked at if we are to seriously examine the biblical claim that the Bible is the very Word of God, divinely inspired, and totally sufficient for all matters of faith and practice.

    There can be no doubt about the fact that the Bible does claim to be the very Word of God. This is clearly seen in verses like 2 Timothy 3:15-17, which say, “. . .from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.â€Â

    In order to answer these questions we must look at both the internal and external evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word. The internal evidences are those things internal to the Bible itself that testify of its divine origin. One of the first internal evidences that the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in its unity. Even though it is really sixty-six individual books, written on three continents, in three different languages, over a period of approximately 1500 years, by more that 40 authors (who came from many walks of life), the Bible remains one unified book from beginning to end without contradiction. This unity is unique from all other books and is evidence of the divine origin of the words as God moved men in such a way that they recorded His very words.

    Another of the internal evidences that indicate the Bible is truly God’s Word is seen in the detailed prophecies contained within its pages. The Bible contains hundreds of detailed prophecies relating to the future of individual nations including Israel, to the future of certain cities, to the future of mankind, and to the coming of one who would be the Messiah, the Savior of not only Israel, but all who would believe in Him. Unlike the prophecies found in other religious books or those done by Nostradamus, the biblical prophecies are extremely detailed and have never failed to come true. There are over three hundred prophecies concerning Jesus Christ in the Old Testament alone. Not only was it foretold where He would be born and what family He would come from, but also how He would die and that He would rise again on the third day. There simply is no logical way to explain the fulfilled prophecies in the Bible other than by divine origin. There is no other religious book with the extent or type of predictive prophecy that the Bible has.

    A third internal evidence of the divine origin of the Bible is seen in its unique authority and power. While this evidence is more subjective than the first two internal evidences, it is no less a very powerful testimony of the divine origin of the Bible. The Bible has a unique authority that is unlike any other book ever written. This authority and power are best seen in the way countless lives have been transformed by reading the Bible. Drug addicts have been cured by it, homosexuals have been set free by it, derelicts and deadbeats have been transformed by it, hardened criminals reformed by it, sinners are rebuked by it, and hate has been turned to love by reading it. The Bible does possess a dynamic and transforming power that is only possible because it is truly God’s Word.

    Besides the internal evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word there are also external evidences that indicate the Bible is truly the Word of God. One of those evidences is the historicity of the Bible. Because the Bible details historical events its truthfulness and accuracy is subject to verification like any other historical documentation. Through both archaeological evidences and other written documents, the historical accounts of the Bible have been proven time and time again to be accurate and true. In fact all the archaeological and manuscript evidence supporting the Bible makes it the best documented book from the ancient world. The fact that the Bible accurately and truthfully records historically verifiable events is a great indication of its truthfulness when dealing with religious subjects and doctrines and helps substantiate its claim that it is the very Word of God.

    Another external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the integrity of the human authors. As mentioned earlier, God used men from many walks of life to record His Words to us. In studying the lives of these men, there is no good reason to believe that they were not honest and sincere men. Examining their lives and the fact that they were willing to die (often excruciating deaths) for what they believed in, it quickly becomes clear that these ordinary yet honest men truly believed that God had spoken to them. The men who wrote the New Testament and many hundreds of other believers (1 Corinthians 15:6) knew the truth of their message because they had seen and spent time with Jesus Christ after He had risen from the dead. The transformation of seeing the Risen Christ had a tremendous impact on these men. They went from hiding in fear, to being willing to die for the message God had revealed to them. Their lives and deaths testify to the fact that the Bible truly is God’s Word.

    A final external evidence that the Bible is truly God’s Word is the indestructibility of the Bible. Because of its importance and its claim to be the very word of God, the Bible has suffered more vicious attacks and attempts to destroy it than any other book in history. From early Roman Emperors like Diocletian, through communist dictators and on to modern day atheists and agnostics, the Bible has withstood and outlasted all of its attackers and is still the most widely published book in the world today.

    Throughout time, skeptics have regarded the Bible as mythological, but archeology has established it as historical. Opponents have attacked its teaching as primitive and outdated, but its moral and legal concepts and teachings have had a positive influence on societies and cultures throughout the world. It continues to be attacked by science, psychology, and political movements and yet remains just as true and relevant today as it was when it was first written. It is a book that has transformed countless lives and cultures throughout the last 2000 years. No matter how its opponents try to attack, destroy, or discredit it, the Bible remains just as strong, just a true, and just as relevant after the attacks as it was before. The accuracy which has been preserved despite every attempt to corrupt, attack, or destroy it, is clear testimony to the fact that the Bible is truly God’s Word. It should not surprise us that no matter how the Bible is attacked, it always comes out unchanged and unscathed. After all, Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away†(Mark 13:31). After looking at the evidence one can say without a doubt that “Yes the Bible is truly God’s Word.â€Â

    Recommended Resource: Scripture Alone by James White.

    Retrieved from http://www.gotquestions.org/Bible-God-Word.html
 

lovely

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Dear Orion,


If anyone is experiencing anti-social behavior, it makes much more sense to seek professional help to sway that wrong behavior than simply maiming yourself. That does nothing for the person. The wrong has to be addressed before the person is freed from whatever their "sin" is.

Matthew 18 is a beautiful picture of God's concern for the humble and the lost.

This is not something that Jesus would actually have us do, but rather the extent in which He would have us desire go in order to keep from offending our brothers, or the lost. He did as much, by laying His own life down on our behalf...though we were guilty of offense, He did not offend us, but saved us with love. God cares so much for the wayward child, or the young in the faith, that He goes to great lengths to find them and teach them. The angels watch His face, and they know of how He suffers when we, believers, offend the lost and one another...especially our younger brothers and sisters. I would rather do those things that Christ mentioned than cause my children, or others, to end up in Hell because of my offense...my sin. I think of this sometimes when my children bicker with one another, or hurt one another's feelings. It grieves me when they hurt one another, or cause each other to sin...especially when they have missed out on wonderful opportunities to be examples of love, obedience, and Truth. God expects us all to shine, especially toward one another, with Truthful Love.

Concerning the help for social behaviors, the change in a person after they have been regenerated is such a change that someone would be willing to do almost anything to please God. To keep themselves from evil doing, and to avoid other things for the sake of offense. This passage is a picture of that attitude. I think that professional help these days mainly consists of psychology, and this is a teaching of man...of the deceiver. It is moslty unScriptural. In most instances, especially in things like marriage counseling, this route does more harm than good for believers. It is self focused, and Jesus' words are meant to teach us a great measure of self-denial for the love of others.

I hope that you can see the great love in this chapter.

As far as David's Word, and God's...yes, it's both. God is artful, and He created David with a heart that was very similar to His own. He also, through inspiration (Which most artists will tell you is real), gave David many words...words of prophecy, love, observations of His ways, etc. David's 'conversations' with God teach us, and inspire us, and help us to know Him better. They are also a model of prayers, and songs, that we ourselves may articulate when in trial. It's not the Bible that is worshipped, it's the One who inspired holy men to write it.

I think one is guilty of worshipping Scripture when they walk by the letter, and not by the Spirit...and expect others too as well. It's a distortion, and then making an idol of that distortion. Scripture, for the believer, is a love letter...not a yoke to be bound to or to bind others with. For example, if you have a love, and that love writes you beautiful words of love, of directions about a meeting, of requests on what you can do for him/her, then won't you read it carefully...follow it carefully...to please your love...especially if you love merits all that behavior? This is why we study, why we delight in the Law, and the knowledge of God. I know that my explanation may be simple, but I hope that it still encourages you. The Lord bless you.
 

Orion

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Thank you for your post, lovely. :)

I believe, as well, that Jesus was speaking figuratively as you suggested.

I also pretty much agree with what you said about David in the Psalms. Each person has been given gifts and talents that are used to express themselves. David just happened to be a writer, and his inspiration gave him the ability to write from his heart what he was experiencing, whether it was exceeding joy, or sorrow in asking where God was in his trials. To me, they HAVE to be David's own words. They show a real man who is expressing himself by his written words.

When I say "not all the Bible is God's own words", it isn't a slam against the Bible. It is just me giving it more heart than it normally is given. How much more great is it to see the words of a real person who give homage to a God he loves!! So, inspiration in many areas of the ancient texts is true.

I also see a lot of the ancient texts (that made it into Canon) as just recorded history. Even history as the writer saw it.

The New Testament has eye witness accounts of events of that time as well. But even if all scripture was "inspired by the Holy Spirit", I don't see that as meaning that it didn't end up skewed by the time it made it into Canon. Free will of people cause many things to be messed up, even if God's will is for something other to happen. Ex. God's will was for my marriage to stay together. My ex wife's free will superseded God's will, and what God wanted preserved.
 

lovely

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Hi Orion,

Thanks for your reply. I do see that you admit to only agreeing with most of my post concerning the Scripture. I suppose our disagreement lies in the idea that man's will can skew the Word of God. I do not believe that to be the case in the written Word of the Lord, but I do believe that to be the case in the minds of believers...who are mere men...that read the Word, teach it, and apply it wrong at times.

See, David was able to observe the sinful world, and yet always come back to a point of absolute Truth...even in his trials and fears. How? How can he write Truth when he is hopeless, angry, terrified, grieved, etc? Why do his circumstances not distort God's Truth? I believe it's because God has the ability to cause Himself to be represented perfectly, and according to His will...even to the point of surpassing man's will...and willfulness. Scripture is so honest, in fact, that many writers sins are there for all of us to read. I think it would be hard to write down our own private shame on our own, but God has led these people to do it for His glory, and for the purpose of the Gospel. Your will, mine, your wifes, can all be worked out for good if we know Him, but He can, and will, surpass it when needed. His Word is something else altogether...He has not left something so timeless, honest, Truthful, applicable, etc....alone in the hands of men. Men do not posess this Truth...it is not born from something in them, but it is only from God. In fact, He wrote the Ten Commandments in His own hand. The Word is complete Truth, and I have never seen evidence to the contrary. The History, the Science, the Principals, the Revelations of God's Character, etc....it's all from Him, through them.

Thanks for the conversation, and may the Lord bless you.
 

Drew

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Here is some material expressing the position of Dallas Willard (author of "The Divine Conspiracy") on this subject:

"Jesus is saying that if you think that laws can eliminate being wrong you would, to be consistent, cut off your hand or gouge out your eye so that you could not possibly do the acts the law forbids. Now, truly, if you blind yourself, you cannot look at a woman to lust after her, because you cannot look on her at all. And if you sufficiently dismember yourself, you will not be able to do any wrong action. This is the logic by which Jesus reduces the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees to the absurd. In their view, the law could be satisfied, and thus goodness attained, if you avoided sinning. You are right if you have done nothing wrong. You could avoid sinning if you simply eliminated the bodily parts that make sinful actions possible. Then you would roll into heaven a mutilated stumpâ€Â

I am inclined to think that Willard is right.
 
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