Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Mid to Latter Acts Dispensational View
- Thread starter JM
- Start date
G
Georges
Guest
What is a "mid to Later Acts dispensational view"? If it is in regard to the birthday of the Chruch (ie Pentecost) shouldn't it technically have been started with the Resurrection and Great Commition?
Please explain what "mid to later Acts" dispensationalistic view is please... I've never heard the term before....Thanks.
Please explain what "mid to later Acts" dispensationalistic view is please... I've never heard the term before....Thanks.
Georges said:
Below is a chart to view, you'll see where the Rapture takes place and which books the mid 9, 13/latter Acts 28 view as relating to the future.
Many folks, as I'm finding out, don't believe the 'Church' to even to mentioned in the Book of Revelations at all. They have reasons which I'm still studying, Bullinger's book on Revelations is online if you search for it.
One person summed it up like so...
1 - Rapture: The present dispensation of grace ends when the body of Christ is raptured.
2 - Tribuation: After the rapture, the tribuation begins.
3 - Second Coming: After the tribulation, the second coming.
4 - Millenial Kingdom: The literal prophetic kingdom is then established.
It looks like Acts 2 dispensationalism accept it doesn't see the Church from Hebrews on to the end of Revelations! I'm not in agreement with these folks, just studying. Mid/latter dispey's don't see a 'New Covenant' made with the Church at all, and claim no such revelation was given in the OT...it's a mystery as Paul states in Eph. 3. Bullinger gives a good outline of why the Church couldn't have been revealed in the OT, and therefore isn't subject to revelation of tribulation.
The above chart is how I view the end times and how the Great Tribulation is kicked off.
Peace,
JM
G
Georges
Guest
JM the thread is confusing to me......
I know very well Dispensationalism.....please tell me do you think that Israel is lost forever? or, has the Chruch taken Israel's place in the prophetical scheme of things?
Do you buy into replacement theology?
Do you think Israel as a nation will be redeemed (eventually)?
I know very well Dispensationalism.....please tell me do you think that Israel is lost forever? or, has the Chruch taken Israel's place in the prophetical scheme of things?
Do you buy into replacement theology?
Do you think Israel as a nation will be redeemed (eventually)?
Georges said:
I know, the Bible is confusing if you mix it all up and mixing God's programs altogether. I don't believe Israel is lost for ever, just lost for now. Romans 11 Israel's prophetic plan will resume when the mystery which is the Church is Raptured/removed.
As for Replacement theology, no. The Church has never had a covenant with God...covenants are made in time, the Everlasting covenant was made within the person of the Godhead before time began. All believers are saved by Grace in every age, with Divine Revelation being progressive in nature, the programs and modes in which God deals with His people at different times change.
Wavy made some great points about Israel and there election...I'm still sorting that out. Israel will be saved, but Gentile believers in this age are members of the Church/Mystery and not Israel.
Hope this helps,
JM
PS: If you notice in the first chart, the dispensation of Grace is now, Israel's program resumes after the rapture. I'm just not too sure about end times to say when the rapture will happen, pretrib makes sense. I can't believe pre-wrath or other post trib rapture views because they mix Church and Israel.
This might be helpful:
THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST
The church the body of Christ being formed in this dispensation of grace is distinct from the nation of Israel and God's program with them. The church is not the subject of prophecy nor the fulfiller of Israel's promises and covenants. (Romans 11:1-36)
THE RAPTURE
This dispensation of grace will end with the rapture of the body of Christ. It will be followed by the resumption of God's program and dealings with Israel, including the Lord's day of wrath and the kingdom reign of Christ on this earth. (I Thessalonians 4:13-5:10; II Thessalonians 2:1-17)
THE CHURCH, THE BODY OF CHRIST
The church the body of Christ being formed in this dispensation of grace is distinct from the nation of Israel and God's program with them. The church is not the subject of prophecy nor the fulfiller of Israel's promises and covenants. (Romans 11:1-36)
THE RAPTURE
This dispensation of grace will end with the rapture of the body of Christ. It will be followed by the resumption of God's program and dealings with Israel, including the Lord's day of wrath and the kingdom reign of Christ on this earth. (I Thessalonians 4:13-5:10; II Thessalonians 2:1-17)
Quote:
Judaism =Under Judaism, the blessings of God were mainly in the PHYSICAL realm, with spiritual blessings relegated to second place. For example, in Genesis 15:18, "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, unto thy seed have I given this LAND, from the river Euphrates."
This is part of the Abrahamic Covenant, and the LAND referred to here is about 3 or 4 times the size of Palestine. The Jewish people have never occupied this land in its entirety, and so this verse WILL BE fulfilled in the Millennium. This will be one of THEIR blessings.
When the Kingdom is set up there will be THRONES of rule in it. One will be for the King (2 Samuel 7:13) and 12 thrones will be for the 12 apostles (Matthew 19:28) This is the realm of physical blessings.
When the Lord ministered to Israel, He HEALED all those that came to Him. Healing is a physical blessing. Paul wrote that the Jews required a SIGN (1 Cor. 1;22) Signs, wonders and miracles are all physical blessings that belong to Israel and its program.
Christianity =Today, according to the Gospel of the Grace of God, the believer in Christ is blessed "with ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS in heavenly places in Christ" (Eph. 1:3)
The emphasis has been shifted by God from the physical realm under the law to the spiritual realm under grace. 2 Corinthians 4:16 is a good example of this: ..."Though our outward man (the body) perish, yet the INWARD MAN is being renewed day by day" Spiritual blessings are for our growth in Christ. They are to keep us well balanced , spiritually and morally. See also Ephesians 3:20
Now there are physical blessings of the Lord in this Dispensation but they are secondary to the great spiritual blessings which are ours in Christ. God can and does heal people when it is His will to so (Philippians 2:25-27) but we must understand that God doesn't heal everybody. "But my God shall supply allyour need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus" is a promise of God for the believers to trust. (Phil. 4:19) But notivce it says "needs", not "wants". Most Christians demand their "wants" to be supplied by the Lord and are not satisfied when He supplies their "needs."
This is why I believe the Church cannot and will not be present during the Great Tribulation...
Judaism =Under Judaism, the blessings of God were mainly in the PHYSICAL realm, with spiritual blessings relegated to second place. For example, in Genesis 15:18, "In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram saying, unto thy seed have I given this LAND, from the river Euphrates."
This is part of the Abrahamic Covenant, and the LAND referred to here is about 3 or 4 times the size of Palestine. The Jewish people have never occupied this land in its entirety, and so this verse WILL BE fulfilled in the Millennium. This will be one of THEIR blessings.
When the Kingdom is set up there will be THRONES of rule in it. One will be for the King (2 Samuel 7:13) and 12 thrones will be for the 12 apostles (Matthew 19:28) This is the realm of physical blessings.
When the Lord ministered to Israel, He HEALED all those that came to Him. Healing is a physical blessing. Paul wrote that the Jews required a SIGN (1 Cor. 1;22) Signs, wonders and miracles are all physical blessings that belong to Israel and its program.
Christianity =Today, according to the Gospel of the Grace of God, the believer in Christ is blessed "with ALL SPIRITUAL BLESSINGS in heavenly places in Christ" (Eph. 1:3)
The emphasis has been shifted by God from the physical realm under the law to the spiritual realm under grace. 2 Corinthians 4:16 is a good example of this: ..."Though our outward man (the body) perish, yet the INWARD MAN is being renewed day by day" Spiritual blessings are for our growth in Christ. They are to keep us well balanced , spiritually and morally. See also Ephesians 3:20
Now there are physical blessings of the Lord in this Dispensation but they are secondary to the great spiritual blessings which are ours in Christ. God can and does heal people when it is His will to so (Philippians 2:25-27) but we must understand that God doesn't heal everybody. "But my God shall supply allyour need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus" is a promise of God for the believers to trust. (Phil. 4:19) But notivce it says "needs", not "wants". Most Christians demand their "wants" to be supplied by the Lord and are not satisfied when He supplies their "needs."
This is why I believe the Church cannot and will not be present during the Great Tribulation...
Vic C.
Member
(Please don't read any "tone" in my posts. I'm just trying to understand your position)JM said:
I'm not seeing in the posts anything that takes the NT Saints out of the GT. I don't see Tribulation as prophecy, persay. I'm not sure if the Bible tells us we will not be subject to Tribulation.
Where they mix is, they say both will be subject to Tribulation. Where I disagree with PostTrib (or post wrath, as I like to call it) is, they put the saints into God's Wrath. There is no scripture that I know that comes close to contradicting 1 Thess 5:9.
I posted this in another thread. Don't know if you saw it.
He's a thought, it's off the wall and just popped into my head.
If we remove all of the Pauline epistles, would you still be able to make pre-wrath and post tribulationalism work, would it still make sense?
Peace,
jason
PS> How much of what we as Christian believe do we find in the Pauline revelations?
If we remove all of the Pauline epistles, would you still be able to make pre-wrath and post tribulationalism work, would it still make sense?
Peace,
jason
PS> How much of what we as Christian believe do we find in the Pauline revelations?
Just gotta question...
I'd like to ask:
If we remove all of the Pauline epistles, would you still be able to make pre-wrath and post tribulationalism work, would it still make sense without Paul's writtings?
Peace,
jason
PS> How much of what we as Christian believe do we find in the Pauline revelations?
I'd like to ask:
If we remove all of the Pauline epistles, would you still be able to make pre-wrath and post tribulationalism work, would it still make sense without Paul's writtings?
Peace,
jason
PS> How much of what we as Christian believe do we find in the Pauline revelations?
G
Georges
Guest
Re: Just gotta question...
OT prophecy supports a pretrib/wrath rapture position.....but it does take a little digging.
In a nutshell here is how it works....Two basic prophecy principles are involved.
1. The Jewish Feast Days.
2. The Basic Ancient Jewish Wedding Ceremony.
A basic knowledge of Feast Days especially the names and idioms associated with them are very helpfull in interpreting OT and NT passages.
Almost every OT prophecy passage (regarding end times) can be broken down into 4 catagories using the Feast Day system. The are always in order, although some of the steps are skipped in order.
The 4 catagories are in order of occurence:
1. Rosh Hashanah...Rapture, Ressurection...Last Trump.
2. Yamim Noraim....Repent, Return, Tribulation/Jacobs Trouble.
3. Yom Kippur....Atonement....Second Coming.....Judgment.
4. Sukkot....Tabernacles...Millennial Kingdom period.
Back to the Pre Trib/Wrath rapture scenario......
Forgive me for cutting and pasting this from Isaiah but it is necessary to show how the above 4 catagories work. I will paste the Isaiah passage of interest (pre trib/wrath rapture) and color code it as I have in my Bible to keep things straight.
Rosh Hashanah terminology passages are in Blue
Yamim Noraim terminolgy passages in Red
Yom Kippur, or Second Coming passages in Orange
Sukkot, or Millennial Kingdom passages in Green.
Isa 26:1 In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: "We have a strong city; he sets up salvation as walls and bulwarks. Note: "n that day", Jewish idiom referring to the future Millennial Kingdom. This includes Jacob's trouble and the Kingdom period.
Isa 26:2 Open the gates, that the righteous nation which keeps faith may enter in.
Isa 26:3 Thou dost keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee, because he trusts in thee.
Isa 26:4 Trust in the LORD for ever, for the LORD GOD is an everlasting rock.
Isa 26:5 For he has brought low the inhabitants of the height, the lofty city. He lays it low, lays it low to the ground, casts it to the dust.
Isa 26:6 The foot tramples it, the feet of the poor, the steps of the needy."
Isa 26:7 The way of the righteous is level; thou dost make smooth the path of the righteous.
Isa 26:8 In the path of thy judgments, O LORD, we wait for thee; thy memorial name is the desire of our soul.
Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks thee. For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Isa 26:10 If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the LORD.
Isa 26:11 O LORD, thy hand is lifted up, but they see it not. Let them see thy zeal for thy people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for thy adversaries consume them.
Isa 26:12 O LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us, thou hast wrought for us all our works.
Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords besides thee have ruled over us, but thy name alone we acknowledge.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them.
Isa 26:15 But thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation; thou art glorified; thou hast enlarged all the borders of the land. Note: Part of the Yamim Noraim theme is repent and return.
Isa 26:16 O LORD, in distress they sought thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
Isa 26:17 Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs, when she is near her time, so were we because of thee, O LORD;
Isa 26:18 we were with child, we writhed, we have as it were brought forth wind. We have wrought no deliverance in the earth, and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen. Note: This is a tribulation period passage.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For thy dew is a dew of light, and on the land of the shades thou wilt let it fall.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the wrath is past. Note: The bride enters he chupah. This is where knowing the Jewish wedding terminology is helpful. The orange indicates that the Bride is in the Chupah before the wrath begins.
Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD is coming forth out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her, and will no more cover her slain. Note: Of course this is a Second Coming passage.
and continues in Isa 27...
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. Note: "In that Day" a Jewish idiom which includes both the tribulation period and Millennial kingdom period. Also, Leviathan is the False Messiah.
Isa 27:2 In that day: "A pleasant vineyard, sing of it! Note: "In that Day" a Jewish idiom including the Messianic Kingdom.
Isa 27:3 I, the LORD, am its keeper; every moment I water it. Lest any one harm it, I guard it night and day;
Isa 27:4 I have no wrath. Would that I had thorns and briers to battle! I would set out against them, I would burn them up together.
Isa 27:5 Or let them lay hold of my protection, let them make peace with me, let them make peace with me."
Isa 27:6 In days to come Jacob shall take root, Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots, and fill the whole world with fruit.
Sorry, but one more important passage from Joel using the same time/color scheme.....
Joe 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming, it is near, Note: This is a Rosh Hashanah passage announcing the beginning of the Day of the Lord, or the birthpains of the Messianic Kingdom.
Joe 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness! Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains a great and powerful people; their like has never been from of old, nor will be again after them through the years of all generations.
Joe 2:3 Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them, but after them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them.
Joe 2:4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses they run.
Joe 2:5 As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains, like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble, like a powerful army drawn up for battle.
Joe 2:6 Before them peoples are in anguish, all faces grow pale.
Joe 2:7 Like warriors they charge, like soldiers they scale the wall. They march each on his way, they do not swerve from their paths.
Joe 2:8 They do not jostle one another, each marches in his path; they burst through the weapons and are not halted.
Joe 2:9 They leap upon the city, they run upon the walls; they climb up into the houses, they enter through the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
Joe 2:11 The LORD utters his voice before his army, for his host is exceedingly great; he that executes his word is powerful. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; who can endure it? Note: Yamim Noraim, tribulaton passage.
Joe 2:12 "Yet even now," says the LORD, "return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD, your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knows whether he will not turn and repent, and leave a blessing behind him, a cereal offering and a drink offering for the LORD, your God? Note: Another theme of Yamim Noraim (Days of Awe) is repentence and return....this theme is also shown in Rev during the tribulation period.
Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sanctify a fast; call a solemn assembly; Note: This is Yom Kippur terminology...consistent with Yom Kippur religious practices and idioms.
Joe 2:16 gather the people. Sanctify the congregation; assemble the elders; gather the children, even nursing infants. Let the bridegroom leave his room, and the bride her chamber. J Note: The Bridegroom and Bride are in their chambers as seen in the Isa passage above. Traditonally, the Bride and Groom are not seen for seven days after the groom comes for his bride.
oe 2:17 Between the vestibule and the altar let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep and say, "Spare thy people, O LORD, and make not thy heritage a reproach, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?'"
Joe 2:18 Then the LORD became jealous for his land, and had pity on his people.
Joe 2:19 The LORD answered and said to his people, "Behold, I am sending to you grain, wine, and oil, and you will be satisfied; and I will no more make you a reproach among the nations.
Joe 2:20 "I will remove the northerner far from you, and drive him into a parched and desolate land, his front into the eastern sea, and his rear into the western sea; the stench and foul smell of him will rise, for he has done great things.
Joe 2:21 "Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice, for the LORD has done great things!
Joe 2:22 Fear not, you beasts of the field, for the pastures of the wilderness are green; the tree bears its fruit, the fig tree and vine give their full yield.
Joe 2:23 "Be glad, O sons of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD, your God; for he has given the early rain for your vindication, he has poured down for you abundant rain, the early and the latter rain, as before.
Joe 2:24 "The threshing floors shall be full of grain, the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe 2:25 I will restore to you the years which the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you.
Joe 2:26 "You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, who has dealt wondrously with you. And my people shall never again be put to shame.
Joe 2:27 You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I, the LORD, am your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame.
Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.
Joe 2:29 Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 "And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
This theme is seen all the way through OT and even NT Passages. Shoot, Revelation is the most blatantly obvious of all.
Rev 4-5 Rosh Hashanah themed
Rev 6-19 Yamim Noraim themed
Rev 19 Yom Kippur themed
Rev 20 Sukkot themed
Rev 20-22 Shemni Atzeret themed
easy as pie.....sorry about the length but had to do it this way....
JM said:
OT prophecy supports a pretrib/wrath rapture position.....but it does take a little digging.
In a nutshell here is how it works....Two basic prophecy principles are involved.
1. The Jewish Feast Days.
2. The Basic Ancient Jewish Wedding Ceremony.
A basic knowledge of Feast Days especially the names and idioms associated with them are very helpfull in interpreting OT and NT passages.
Almost every OT prophecy passage (regarding end times) can be broken down into 4 catagories using the Feast Day system. The are always in order, although some of the steps are skipped in order.
The 4 catagories are in order of occurence:
1. Rosh Hashanah...Rapture, Ressurection...Last Trump.
2. Yamim Noraim....Repent, Return, Tribulation/Jacobs Trouble.
3. Yom Kippur....Atonement....Second Coming.....Judgment.
4. Sukkot....Tabernacles...Millennial Kingdom period.
Back to the Pre Trib/Wrath rapture scenario......
Forgive me for cutting and pasting this from Isaiah but it is necessary to show how the above 4 catagories work. I will paste the Isaiah passage of interest (pre trib/wrath rapture) and color code it as I have in my Bible to keep things straight.
Rosh Hashanah terminology passages are in Blue
Yamim Noraim terminolgy passages in Red
Yom Kippur, or Second Coming passages in Orange
Sukkot, or Millennial Kingdom passages in Green.
Isa 26:1 In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: "We have a strong city; he sets up salvation as walls and bulwarks. Note: "n that day", Jewish idiom referring to the future Millennial Kingdom. This includes Jacob's trouble and the Kingdom period.
Isa 26:2 Open the gates, that the righteous nation which keeps faith may enter in.
Isa 26:3 Thou dost keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee, because he trusts in thee.
Isa 26:4 Trust in the LORD for ever, for the LORD GOD is an everlasting rock.
Isa 26:5 For he has brought low the inhabitants of the height, the lofty city. He lays it low, lays it low to the ground, casts it to the dust.
Isa 26:6 The foot tramples it, the feet of the poor, the steps of the needy."
Isa 26:7 The way of the righteous is level; thou dost make smooth the path of the righteous.
Isa 26:8 In the path of thy judgments, O LORD, we wait for thee; thy memorial name is the desire of our soul.
Isa 26:9 My soul yearns for thee in the night, my spirit within me earnestly seeks thee. For when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness.
Isa 26:10 If favor is shown to the wicked, he does not learn righteousness; in the land of uprightness he deals perversely and does not see the majesty of the LORD.
Isa 26:11 O LORD, thy hand is lifted up, but they see it not. Let them see thy zeal for thy people, and be ashamed. Let the fire for thy adversaries consume them.
Isa 26:12 O LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us, thou hast wrought for us all our works.
Isa 26:13 O LORD our God, other lords besides thee have ruled over us, but thy name alone we acknowledge.
Isa 26:14 They are dead, they will not live; they are shades, they will not arise; to that end thou hast visited them with destruction and wiped out all remembrance of them.
Isa 26:15 But thou hast increased the nation, O LORD, thou hast increased the nation; thou art glorified; thou hast enlarged all the borders of the land. Note: Part of the Yamim Noraim theme is repent and return.
Isa 26:16 O LORD, in distress they sought thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.
Isa 26:17 Like a woman with child, who writhes and cries out in her pangs, when she is near her time, so were we because of thee, O LORD;
Isa 26:18 we were with child, we writhed, we have as it were brought forth wind. We have wrought no deliverance in the earth, and the inhabitants of the world have not fallen. Note: This is a tribulation period passage.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise. O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For thy dew is a dew of light, and on the land of the shades thou wilt let it fall.
Isa 26:20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the wrath is past. Note: The bride enters he chupah. This is where knowing the Jewish wedding terminology is helpful. The orange indicates that the Bride is in the Chupah before the wrath begins.
Isa 26:21 For behold, the LORD is coming forth out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity, and the earth will disclose the blood shed upon her, and will no more cover her slain. Note: Of course this is a Second Coming passage.
and continues in Isa 27...
Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his hard and great and strong sword will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan the twisting serpent, and he will slay the dragon that is in the sea. Note: "In that Day" a Jewish idiom which includes both the tribulation period and Millennial kingdom period. Also, Leviathan is the False Messiah.
Isa 27:2 In that day: "A pleasant vineyard, sing of it! Note: "In that Day" a Jewish idiom including the Messianic Kingdom.
Isa 27:3 I, the LORD, am its keeper; every moment I water it. Lest any one harm it, I guard it night and day;
Isa 27:4 I have no wrath. Would that I had thorns and briers to battle! I would set out against them, I would burn them up together.
Isa 27:5 Or let them lay hold of my protection, let them make peace with me, let them make peace with me."
Isa 27:6 In days to come Jacob shall take root, Israel shall blossom and put forth shoots, and fill the whole world with fruit.
Sorry, but one more important passage from Joel using the same time/color scheme.....
Joe 2:1 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble, for the day of the LORD is coming, it is near, Note: This is a Rosh Hashanah passage announcing the beginning of the Day of the Lord, or the birthpains of the Messianic Kingdom.
Joe 2:2 a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and thick darkness! Like blackness there is spread upon the mountains a great and powerful people; their like has never been from of old, nor will be again after them through the years of all generations.
Joe 2:3 Fire devours before them, and behind them a flame burns. The land is like the garden of Eden before them, but after them a desolate wilderness, and nothing escapes them.
Joe 2:4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses, and like war horses they run.
Joe 2:5 As with the rumbling of chariots, they leap on the tops of the mountains, like the crackling of a flame of fire devouring the stubble, like a powerful army drawn up for battle.
Joe 2:6 Before them peoples are in anguish, all faces grow pale.
Joe 2:7 Like warriors they charge, like soldiers they scale the wall. They march each on his way, they do not swerve from their paths.
Joe 2:8 They do not jostle one another, each marches in his path; they burst through the weapons and are not halted.
Joe 2:9 They leap upon the city, they run upon the walls; they climb up into the houses, they enter through the windows like a thief.
Joe 2:10 The earth quakes before them, the heavens tremble. The sun and the moon are darkened, and the stars withdraw their shining.
Joe 2:11 The LORD utters his voice before his army, for his host is exceedingly great; he that executes his word is powerful. For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; who can endure it? Note: Yamim Noraim, tribulaton passage.
Joe 2:12 "Yet even now," says the LORD, "return to me with all your heart, with fasting, with weeping, and with mourning;
Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD, your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil.
Joe 2:14 Who knows whether he will not turn and repent, and leave a blessing behind him, a cereal offering and a drink offering for the LORD, your God? Note: Another theme of Yamim Noraim (Days of Awe) is repentence and return....this theme is also shown in Rev during the tribulation period.
Joe 2:15 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sanctify a fast; call a solemn assembly; Note: This is Yom Kippur terminology...consistent with Yom Kippur religious practices and idioms.
Joe 2:16 gather the people. Sanctify the congregation; assemble the elders; gather the children, even nursing infants. Let the bridegroom leave his room, and the bride her chamber. J Note: The Bridegroom and Bride are in their chambers as seen in the Isa passage above. Traditonally, the Bride and Groom are not seen for seven days after the groom comes for his bride.
oe 2:17 Between the vestibule and the altar let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep and say, "Spare thy people, O LORD, and make not thy heritage a reproach, a byword among the nations. Why should they say among the peoples, 'Where is their God?'"
Joe 2:18 Then the LORD became jealous for his land, and had pity on his people.
Joe 2:19 The LORD answered and said to his people, "Behold, I am sending to you grain, wine, and oil, and you will be satisfied; and I will no more make you a reproach among the nations.
Joe 2:20 "I will remove the northerner far from you, and drive him into a parched and desolate land, his front into the eastern sea, and his rear into the western sea; the stench and foul smell of him will rise, for he has done great things.
Joe 2:21 "Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice, for the LORD has done great things!
Joe 2:22 Fear not, you beasts of the field, for the pastures of the wilderness are green; the tree bears its fruit, the fig tree and vine give their full yield.
Joe 2:23 "Be glad, O sons of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD, your God; for he has given the early rain for your vindication, he has poured down for you abundant rain, the early and the latter rain, as before.
Joe 2:24 "The threshing floors shall be full of grain, the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.
Joe 2:25 I will restore to you the years which the swarming locust has eaten, the hopper, the destroyer, and the cutter, my great army, which I sent among you.
Joe 2:26 "You shall eat in plenty and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, who has dealt wondrously with you. And my people shall never again be put to shame.
Joe 2:27 You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I, the LORD, am your God and there is none else. And my people shall never again be put to shame.
Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.
Joe 2:29 Even upon the menservants and maidservants in those days, I will pour out my spirit.
Joe 2:30 "And I will give portents in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke.
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD comes.
Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of the LORD shall be delivered; for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the LORD has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the LORD calls.
This theme is seen all the way through OT and even NT Passages. Shoot, Revelation is the most blatantly obvious of all.
Rev 4-5 Rosh Hashanah themed
Rev 6-19 Yamim Noraim themed
Rev 19 Yom Kippur themed
Rev 20 Sukkot themed
Rev 20-22 Shemni Atzeret themed
easy as pie.....sorry about the length but had to do it this way....
Wow, that most of taken a long time, thank you.
What about
If the Church is now the Bride of Christ, why would Christ beat up on her over the 7 year tribulation?
I see two peoples, two programs. The post you made really does a lot to bloster my position, if you can prove the post trib/prewrath position from the OT, without the mystery revealed by Paul, then it most be for the first people/Israel and not the Church.
Compare
Matt. 24:24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
We read Christ's words, preach to the world and the end will come. We read Paul's words, I've preached to everyone, everywhere. Why hasn't the end come? Is the pretertist correct, or maybe the crazy dispensationalist with the two programs of God idea. The Gospel of the Kingdom is different then the Gospel of the Heavenly ministry revealed by Paul...Eph. 5. A few points, Acts 10:35 works for acceptance, Rev. 2:25 those who overcome, James 2:24 works & not by faith alone, Romans 5:1 by faith, Titus 3:5 not by works but mercy, Eph. 2:8-10 not of works.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Peace,
JM
What about
If the Church is now the Bride of Christ, why would Christ beat up on her over the 7 year tribulation?
I see two peoples, two programs. The post you made really does a lot to bloster my position, if you can prove the post trib/prewrath position from the OT, without the mystery revealed by Paul, then it most be for the first people/Israel and not the Church.
Compare
Matt. 24:24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
We read Christ's words, preach to the world and the end will come. We read Paul's words, I've preached to everyone, everywhere. Why hasn't the end come? Is the pretertist correct, or maybe the crazy dispensationalist with the two programs of God idea. The Gospel of the Kingdom is different then the Gospel of the Heavenly ministry revealed by Paul...Eph. 5. A few points, Acts 10:35 works for acceptance, Rev. 2:25 those who overcome, James 2:24 works & not by faith alone, Romans 5:1 by faith, Titus 3:5 not by works but mercy, Eph. 2:8-10 not of works.
2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Peace,
JM
G
Georges
Guest
Bruddah.....I think it's all about the lost sheep of Israel, and we Gentile believers are along for the ride.
G
Georges
Guest
JM said:
JM, consider the timing....the gospel will be preached over the entire world ultimately and conclusively by the Rev verse...
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Haven't seen or heard of any flying angels proclaiming the gospel as of yet.....either currently or historically.
:D That's my point...which brings to mind another question...what was the Gospel our Lord preached? It wasn't Him and Him crucified, or was it? Peter didn't think so, he even cut off an ear over it. The mystery was revealed by Paul. 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 3:2; Col. 1:25; Gal. 2:9/"...that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision."
The NASB translates it as "an."
I believe Jesus Christ was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, Paul was preaching Christ and Him crucified. The Angel in Rev. 14:6 is preaching 'good news' but the 'good news' of the Kingdom and not the Grace of God Acts 20:24. (NOTE: all salvation is by Grace, Grace of God is the term used by Paul so I use it as well.)
Brother, I just want to say thank you for taking your time and explain things. We disagree but you've been very godly about it.
Peace,
JM
PS: I look forward to reading more of your posts.
The NASB translates it as "an."
I believe Jesus Christ was preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, Paul was preaching Christ and Him crucified. The Angel in Rev. 14:6 is preaching 'good news' but the 'good news' of the Kingdom and not the Grace of God Acts 20:24. (NOTE: all salvation is by Grace, Grace of God is the term used by Paul so I use it as well.)
Brother, I just want to say thank you for taking your time and explain things. We disagree but you've been very godly about it.
Peace,
JM
PS: I look forward to reading more of your posts.
Vic C.
Member
Heh, that's priceless. I've thought that many times. After all, we were grafted in, not a replacement. We are here right now, discussing End Times, trying to see if we can "figure" out when we get off that ride. I'll probably die first.Georges said:
:Good job with the post George.