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I attended a church a while back and was blessed to meet a man who was confine to a wheelchair. Desperate for a cure he and his wife traveled to various faith healers. Nothing could be done for him and he became disillusioned and disappointed that God would not heal him. Most of the healers never let him get anywhere near the stage in various arenas around America. More than once he was told he didn’t have enough faith to be healed. Those were the hardest for him to deal with because he believed he lacked faith to be healed. E and I talked frequently and he was a dear sweet man who was wing crushed with guilt. He could not take care of his wife or himself and it was all because he lacked faith. As I was sitting in the pews after receiving the Lord’s Supper I watched other older people make that long walk with unsteady bodies. Struggling to walk. Trouble kneeling down and getting back up and it dawned on me. We all as we age lose somethings to old age, injuries and what have you its part of life in the flesh we still dwell in. But the Lord made me aware He was trying to reach me to teach me and He finally got through. The Lord said that His people need to understand that unlike physical healings that some receive and others don’t. Healings of physical healings that pass away when the body dies. But spiritually He has healed us with that which will never be destroyed. We were dead and we live. Deaf and blind I see hear the things of my Lord. Unable to work or walk for Christ I have been saved for good works and my walk has changed. You are a merciful God faithful to us. Always doing more for us than we deserve. The day is coming Lord when we will be with you forever and the work you have been doing in us will be finished. We will have been made whole and all because you desired us to be your Son’s Wife. Thank you for your Son who died to save us and to rid us of our sins and seal the Covenant with nothing held back. The Lord God Almighty king of heaven and earth and amazingly our Husband.
 
+1

and yet...I believe I have been on the receiving end of maybe not 'miracles' (dude, theologians outdo themselves defining and redefining 'miracles...' see RC Sproul for the most unbelievably intellectual definition I have come across, to date...), but definitely...

extreme grace. now...in -my 1 case-, a lot of this extreme grace came gradually, over my 7 year walk with Christ...

so I think of it (now...) as more God willing to '...put off the old, put on the new...,' with an element of being made physically (more) whole, vs straight up healing, like with your friend who desperately (and understandably...) wanted outta that wheel chair.

Of course...I went from a shell of a human being, filled with anger and bitterness and wrath, previously destroyed by psychiatrists because I was a 'narcissistic loser' from a 'rinky dink middle class family' to being...

a normal, healthy, surprisingly smart....'Schizophrenic, from a 'good family' .' LOL. oh, and im still not heterosexual (not active, I know Scripture...), so....yeah. a mix of '...put off the old, put on the new...' and 'My grace is sufficient for thee,' etc.

sorry to make it about me, yet again. its just...this whole healing business is a lot more nuanced than YES or IN HEAVEN. His ways are, in fact, higher than my ways, that's for certain. I don't pretend to fully -get it- , of course. :)

thanks again for the good post.
 
awww, thanks. :)

im still putting it together. not to rehash, but to understand...to construct a meaningful narrative, a story of...I'm guessing 1st God's love and pity, then repentance, then mercy and being brought out of the miry clay, etc.

miracles...as most people (but not RC Sproul) define them do still happen. I get the sense that when an outcast in impoverished African nations (for instance...) is healed and set free upon repentance...

there is mighty rejoicing in Heaven, not a bit of coverage in much of the world. If a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, does it still fall?

cliche, supposedly Zen, I think (?). now, I think...obvious answer: God hears all, so yes. Truth is Truth.

anyway, thanks again. :)
 
I attended a church a while back and was blessed to meet a man who was confine to a wheelchair. Desperate for a cure he and his wife traveled to various faith healers. Nothing could be done for him and he became disillusioned and disappointed that God would not heal him. Most of the healers never let him get anywhere near the stage in various arenas around America. More than once he was told he didn’t have enough faith to be healed. Those were the hardest for him to deal with because he believed he lacked faith to be healed. E and I talked frequently and he was a dear sweet man who was wing crushed with guilt. He could not take care of his wife or himself and it was all because he lacked faith. As I was sitting in the pews after receiving the Lord’s Supper I watched other older people make that long walk with unsteady bodies. Struggling to walk. Trouble kneeling down and getting back up and it dawned on me. We all as we age lose somethings to old age, injuries and what have you its part of life in the flesh we still dwell in. But the Lord made me aware He was trying to reach me to teach me and He finally got through. The Lord said that His people need to understand that unlike physical healings that some receive and others don’t. Healings of physical healings that pass away when the body dies. But spiritually He has healed us with that which will never be destroyed. We were dead and we live. Deaf and blind I see hear the things of my Lord. Unable to work or walk for Christ I have been saved for good works and my walk has changed. You are a merciful God faithful to us. Always doing more for us than we deserve. The day is coming Lord when we will be with you forever and the work you have been doing in us will be finished. We will have been made whole and all because you desired us to be your Son’s Wife. Thank you for your Son who died to save us and to rid us of our sins and seal the Covenant with nothing held back. The Lord God Almighty king of heaven and earth and amazingly our Husband.
Please read what it says in the bible about healing:-
James5:13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Question.
What does the sick person do?
Who is it that prays the prayer of faith?

To drive home the lesson I will answer.
The sick person asks for an elder to come to them. healing meetings are wrong.

The person who has to have faith is the person praying for the healing is the one who has to have faith.
Those who say that sick person did not have faith to be healed is lying. Have nothing to do with such a cruel unnatural person.
 
Please read what it says in the bible about healing:-
James5:13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Question.
What does the sick person do?
Who is it that prays the prayer of faith?

To drive home the lesson I will answer.
The sick person asks for an elder to come to them. healing meetings are wrong.

The person who has to have faith is the person praying for the healing is the one who has to have faith.
Those who say that sick person did not have faith to be healed is lying. Have nothing to do with such a cruel unnatural person.
Hi Who Me...
Great point!
I've never even thought of this.

I'd also like to say that I don't feel anyone has to go anywhere to be healed....God cold heal us right where we are; unless, of course, for some reason a person feels they should go to a particular place. I'm not one of them - if God wants to heal me, He can do it while I'm in my own home.

I do wonder why these words were put in scripture...
James 5:13-16, as you quoted.
Perhaps persons were being healed more at that time than today?
For James to state this, it certainly had to be true and functional.

I have no answer, but trust in God.
 
Who Me,

Please read what it says in the bible about healing:-
James5:13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Question.
What does the sick person do? be sick, pray
Who is it that prays the prayer of faith? I would hope all involved would offer the prayer of faith

To drive home the lesson I will answer.
The sick person asks for an elder to come to them. healing meetings are wrong.

The person who has to have faith is the person praying for the healing is the one who has to have faith. The receiver needs faith as well. The healing can be offered but if the person rejects or does not act upon it it is like it never was given
Those who say that sick person did not have faith to be healed is lying. Have nothing to do with such a cruel unnatural person. By your faith you have been healed.
 
Hi Who Me...
Great point!
I've never even thought of this.

I'd also like to say that I don't feel anyone has to go anywhere to be healed....God cold heal us right where we are; unless, of course, for some reason a person feels they should go to a particular place. I'm not one of them - if God wants to heal me, He can do it while I'm in my own home.

I do wonder why these words were put in scripture...
James 5:13-16, as you quoted.
Perhaps persons were being healed more at that time than today?
For James to state this, it certainly had to be true and functional.

I have no answer, but trust in God.
I think the Lord healed more often back then due to necessity because of lack of modern medicine. In our case we could not get medical help because they REFUSED to help him. I brought his case up before you guys for prayer. Within a few days something sloughed off our son's esophagus and his stomach calmed down. He was on a liquid diet before prayer and now he eats solid food. % years of parental hell brought to an end through prayer and an Almighty God. When the Tribulation hits in full force we will see widespread Gifts due to the needs f the Body in a hateful world.
 
((note to daninthelionsden: I -tried- to like, then love, then like your post, and somehow it messed up...sorry...))

I go with the necessity argument. A minister told me about seeing people healed upon repentance in poor villages in Africa. now and then, reputable Christian ministries will share stories of miraculous healing happening when people simply cannot get the treatment they need.

in my case...I was never going to be given proper treatment for HIV+ or any other physical health problems. just...wasn't going to happen, even when I still had good insurance. A long (to me) time ago, I got deathly ill, and I was -still- not given treatment, even though I had good insurance (which a psych ward bilked, predictably). so, speaking just of my personal, 1 person only experience...

7 years into my Walk with The Lord, I'm remarkably healthy and I'm even smart, normal, etc...

and I think part of the reason He has seen fit to make me healthy, etc. even though I was wretched, unrepentant, etc. is because The Medical Establishment...

ripped me to shreds when I needed Rx (physical, not psych) the most. blah.

happy about your son, daninthelionsden. :)
 
Healing itself even seems to be a controversial topic to some degree. I remember being diagnosed with a seizure disorder when I was about 9 years old...practically out of nowhere. Got worse when I turned 14. At that time, I was a child...I don't know how someone could say, "You don't have enough faith," to a child or even a baby (I guess at this point people blame the parents because of course it is not the baby's faith lacking as they do not understand such a concept.

I never thought people thought this until I saw the world wide web...to think people thought I was sick because of lack of faith. It gets a person down on top of dealing with illness. It is like saying it is their fault. Reminds me of Job and how it wasn't his fault.

Thankfully, I have weaned off meds (don't worry, with doctor supervision only), and I feel so much better. Will I have a seizure or not? I don't know. That is the scariest part. I have to have so much faith in the Lord each day that it won't happen and that he has healed me.

My husband saw a wonderful doctor who truly had a healing gift. She also put emphasis on how forgiveness and unforgiveness plays a vital role in our health, too. Carrying burdens and harboring unforgiveness doesn't do the body any good. It has even been shown scientifically that forgiveness does out physical bodies a lot of good. He used to be allergic to peanuts and it was getting worse and worse...he could barely go to work, the grocery store, and potlucks. He is no longer allergic. He used to be allergic to cats, too. Thankfully not anymore. He used to have diabetes, and now his blood sugar goes up and down as it should. I cannot describe it except for divine healing.

All in all, I personally don't believe it is a faith problem. We live in such a toxic world...the possibilities for illness are abundant and endless.

I thank the Lord that no matter what befalls us that our souls can be without blemish through Jesus Christ. We each have our own trials and illness and injuries can come to us, but God will help us through. I believe at times God uses our illnesses to witness to other people so we can relate to others, or encourage and uplift others.
 
Healing itself even seems to be a controversial topic to some degree. I remember being diagnosed with a seizure disorder when I was about 9 years old...practically out of nowhere. Got worse when I turned 14. At that time, I was a child...I don't know how someone could say, "You don't have enough faith," to a child or even a baby (I guess at this point people blame the parents because of course it is not the baby's faith lacking as they do not understand such a concept.

I never thought people thought this until I saw the world wide web...to think people thought I was sick because of lack of faith. It gets a person down on top of dealing with illness. It is like saying it is their fault. Reminds me of Job and how it wasn't his fault.

Thankfully, I have weaned off meds (don't worry, with doctor supervision only), and I feel so much better. Will I have a seizure or not? I don't know. That is the scariest part. I have to have so much faith in the Lord each day that it won't happen and that he has healed me.

My husband saw a wonderful doctor who truly had a healing gift. She also put emphasis on how forgiveness and unforgiveness plays a vital role in our health, too. Carrying burdens and harboring unforgiveness doesn't do the body any good. It has even been shown scientifically that forgiveness does out physical bodies a lot of good. He used to be allergic to peanuts and it was getting worse and worse...he could barely go to work, the grocery store, and potlucks. He is no longer allergic. He used to be allergic to cats, too. Thankfully not anymore. He used to have diabetes, and now his blood sugar goes up and down as it should. I cannot describe it except for divine healing.

All in all, I personally don't believe it is a faith problem. We live in such a toxic world...the possibilities for illness are abundant and endless.

I thank the Lord that no matter what befalls us that our souls can be without blemish through Jesus Christ. We each have our own trials and illness and injuries can come to us, but God will help us through. I believe at times God uses our illnesses to witness to other people so we can relate to others, or encourage and uplift others.
Why even attend a church that tells someone they don't have enough faith? I don't care for WofF denominations...they make persons doubt their faith in God. When someone is sick, they have enough problems to deal with - their church should be helping them...not criticizing them.
 
I think the Lord healed more often back then due to necessity because of lack of modern medicine. In our case we could not get medical help because they REFUSED to help him. I brought his case up before you guys for prayer. Within a few days something sloughed off our son's esophagus and his stomach calmed down. He was on a liquid diet before prayer and now he eats solid food. % years of parental hell brought to an end through prayer and an Almighty God. When the Tribulation hits in full force we will see widespread Gifts due to the needs f the Body in a hateful world.
How about this....what I tell whoever wants to hear it:
ALL healings come from God.
But He will not heal all and we can't understand why.
Sometimes the answer is yes,
sometimes it's no,
sometimes it's not now.
 
How about this....what I tell whoever wants to hear it:
ALL healings come from God.
But He will not heal all and we can't understand why.
Sometimes the answer is yes,
sometimes it's no,
sometimes it's not now.


What is your faith telling you to do?



JLB
 
i read some cs lewis...

something to the effect that full healing+transformation (for Christians...) comes in Heaven. so, even if someone is left (disabled, sick, sickly, afflicted) on earth, in Heaven...

transformed, perfected. His answer, then, seems to always be Yes, for those who persevere.

I guess then its more like...Yes (now), Yes (gradually), Yes (in Heaven).

not that it makes being stuck in a wheel chair or left with any number of ailments fun and games, but...it does, I think, point to The Goodness of God. :)
 
My faith tells me to accept God's answer...
whether it's Yes, No, or Not Now.

Sometimes God speaks to us, or moves upon us to do something in order to be healed, and we may not always hear Him.

Whether it’s the person who is ministering the healing or the person who needs the healing, they need to hear what God is saying in regards to the healing.


Two Examples:

First Example is where the onus is on the one ministering the healing to obey

And He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers in his ears, and He spat and touched his tongue. Then, looking up to heaven, He sighed, and said to him, “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”
Immediately his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was loosed, and he spoke plainly. Mark 7:33-35


Jesus didn’t just say your healed, go your way.

  • He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers in his ears,
  • and He spat and touched his tongue.
  • Then, looking up to heaven, He sighed, and said to him, “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”


Second example is where the person who needs the healing has the faith, and must obey what God has moved upon her to do.


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22
  • a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
  • For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

In both cases hearing God, by which faith was given, and obeying the instructions from God resulted in the successful outcome.


JLB
 
One of the greatest Christians I ever knew, Joe Donato, said he never knew when the Lord would heal someone at one of his evangelical services. Someone, with seemingly all the faith in the world, would not be healed. Then an unbeliever would come up and receive a healing. Joe said he usually didn't know until the person came up and he placed his hands on him.
I think we must first submit totally to the Lord's will, whatever it may be, then say something like"Nevertheless Father, I ask your healing for____________. I obey your command to pray for the sick. I ask this in the name of your Son, Jesus Christ.
We have to surrender completely to our Lord.
 
i read some cs lewis...

something to the effect that full healing+transformation (for Christians...) comes in Heaven. so, even if someone is left (disabled, sick, sickly, afflicted) on earth, in Heaven...

transformed, perfected. His answer, then, seems to always be Yes, for those who persevere.

I guess then its more like...Yes (now), Yes (gradually), Yes (in Heaven).

not that it makes being stuck in a wheel chair or left with any number of ailments fun and games, but...it does, I think, point to The Goodness of God. :)
OK.
I agree and think the above is a very good concept which is new to me.

But could I rewrite your understanding a bit?

No....now (for some things)
Yes...gradually
Yes...in heaven

We have to admit that God will tell us NO sometimes here on earth. Don't you agree?
 
Sometimes God speaks to us, or moves upon us to do something in order to be healed, and we may not always hear Him.

Whether it’s the person who is ministering the healing or the person who needs the healing, they need to hear what God is saying in regards to the healing.


Two Examples:

First Example is where the onus is on the one ministering the healing to obey

And He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers in his ears, and He spat and touched his tongue. Then, looking up to heaven, He sighed, and said to him, “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”
Immediately his ears were opened, and the impediment of his tongue was loosed, and he spoke plainly. Mark 7:33-35


Jesus didn’t just say your healed, go your way.

  • He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers in his ears,
  • and He spat and touched his tongue.
  • Then, looking up to heaven, He sighed, and said to him, “Ephphatha,” that is, “Be opened.”


Second example is where the person who needs the healing has the faith, and must obey what God has moved upon her to do.


And suddenly, a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment. For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.” But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, “Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And the woman was made well from that hour. Matthew 9:20-22
  • a woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment.
  • For she said to herself, “If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.”

In both cases hearing God, by which faith was given, and obeying the instructions from God resulted in the successful outcome.


JLB
But if God desires to heal us...why would we NOT hear His instruction?

I understand the two above....I've always like the story of the woman touching Jesus' garment.

We could also add the story of the raising of Jairus' daughter...Jesus asked some to leave...because they laughed at Jesus and did not believe He could really raise the girl.

The woman had to take action and follow her faith...she DID hear and followed God's instruction.

The young girl took no action...Jesus did everything for her.

We're saying the same thing....
What I'm thinking is: What if we don't hear God telling us what to do?
 
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