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more divine mystery

D

DivineNames

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Question: “Did the entire, whole complete God die in Christ on Good Friday?â€Â

Longer answer:


The question itself, as worded, can lead to confusion and misunderstanding and might be answered either “yes†or “no†depending on what is meant or understood by “the entire, whole, complete God.â€Â

On the one hand, if someone intends or understands this phrase to mean “the Holy Trinity,†then the answer is clearly “no.†The “Holy Trinity†did not “die in Christ on Good Friday.†God the Father did not die on Good Friday, nor did God the Holy Spirit. Only Christ, the Son of God,true God and true man, died on the cross on Good Friday. The ancient heresy of“Patripassianism†is a fifth-century teaching that in the work of redemption God the Father himself “suffered and died†for our sins. The Christian church has always rejected this teaching.

On the other hand, however, if someone intends or understands the phrase “the entire, whole, complete God†to be a reference to the fact that Christ, who died on the cross, is not only man but also “truly, completely, fully God,†then the question might be answered “yes.†But this answer would need further careful qualification, since we do not believe, teach and confess that “the divine nature†as such died on the cross.

The reason we can speak rightly and properly about “God dying on the cross†(e.g., TLH 154:3)â€â€though with due reverence and restraint in view of the profound mystery involved hereâ€â€is because of Scripture’s teachings regarding the personal union of the two natures of Christ and the communication of attributes. According to the Formula of Concord, it is not enough to say that “Christ suffered and died only as a man†or that “only the human nature of Christ suffered and died.†Otherwise (if his divine nature did not somehow “participate†in his suffering and death through the communication of attributes), his death would have been a “merely human†death and could not have accomplished our salvation.

Therefore, we believe, teach and confess that the whole Christâ€â€the Christ who is both true God and true manâ€â€suffered and died on the cross for our sins. He did so, however, “according to the assumed human nature,†not “according to the divine nature,†which “can neither suffer nor die.†FC SD VIII, 20 puts it this way: “On account of this personal union, without which such a true communion of the natures is unthinkable and impossible, it is not only the bare human nature (whose property it is to suffer and to die) that has suffered for the sin of the world, but the Son of God himself has truly suffered (although according to the assumed human nature) and, in the words of our plain Christian Creed, has trly died, although the divine nature can neither suffer nor die†(Tappert, 595).


http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/med ... Christ.pdf




Would any Christian like to try and explain all this doctrinal malarky?
 
DivineNames said:
Question: “Did the entire, whole complete God die in Christ on Good Friday?â€Â

Would any Christian like to try and explain all this doctrinal malarky?
I'd be happy to. The only thing that died on the cross was Jesus' earthly body. His earthly body was then presented to the Father as our sin sacrifice (that's why He didn't want Mary to touch Him until He presented Himself to the Father in John 20:17).

What did not die is Jesus' spirit and soul. So the answer to your question cannot be yes, because Jesus' earthly body was not God when Jesus took on our sins on the cross. We see this in Matthew 27:46. Any doctrine that says "yes" to this question is incorrect.
 
The only thing that died on the cross was Jesus' earthly body. His earthly body was then presented to the Father as our sin sacrifice

If his body was the only sacrifice, billions of humans have given the same by dying. It couldn't have been a greater sacrifice for God to give up his son, since God didn't lose anything in the bargin (either God the father, Jesus God or the Holy Spirit God). To sacrifice means to give something up. According to you, Jesus' sacrifice was not different nor any more sacrifice than countless other cases.

Also, so you are saying that God(Father) sent down God(Son) to make a sacrifice to appease God(Father), although God(Son) didn't actually make any sacrifice whatsoever? Odd.

(that's why He didn't want Mary to touch Him until He presented Himself to the Father in John 20:17).

Nope. They can touch him. Matthew 28:9

What did not die is Jesus' spirit and soul.

Well, neither does anybody else's who goes to heaven, right? Not a unique claim in christianity.
 
I try to sort through all the doctrinal mularky the way I interpret it...

Jesus' physical body, that of a man without sin, died on the Cross as the Prefect Sacrifice for ALL of Mankind's sins, the fulfillment of the Law. Jesus' soul and spirit descended into Hell for three days as a result of this sacrifice.

The original Question: “Did the entire, whole complete God die in Christ on Good Friday?†is rather moot because the Law does not require the "entire, complete God" to die, only that the Sacrifice must be without blemish (sin), which Jesus was.
 
PHIL121 said:
I try to sort through all the doctrinal mularky the way I interpret it...

Jesus' physical body, that of a man without sin, died on the Cross as the Prefect Sacrifice for ALL of Mankind's sins, the fulfillment of the Law. Jesus' soul and spirit descended into Hell for three days as a result of this sacrifice.

The original Question: “Did the entire, whole complete God die in Christ on Good Friday?†is rather moot because the Law does not require the "entire, complete God" to die, only that the Sacrifice must be without blemish (sin), which Jesus was.

Good post Phil. I think you summed it up well there.
-McQ 8-)
 
"Jesus died for our sins"


It seems that he didn't. The divine person didn't die, because the divine person can't die.
 
DivineNames said:
"Jesus died for our sins"


It seems that he didn't. The divine person didn't die, because the divine person can't die.

:roll:

Jesus did die and his soul and spirit went to Hell, as a Sacrifice for ALL the sins of Mankind.

It does bear repeating ;-)
 
PHIL121 said:
DivineNames said:
"Jesus died for our sins"


It seems that he didn't. The divine person didn't die, because the divine person can't die.

:roll:

Jesus did die and his soul and spirit went to Hell, as a Sacrifice for ALL the sins of Mankind.

It does bear repeating ;-)


If the divine nature can't die, then Jesus can't really die. The "person" of Jesus is divine, what was assumed was a human nature, not a human person, as I understand it. The person is divine, and that person CAN'T DIE !!
 
PHIL121 said:
DivineNames said:
"Jesus died for our sins"


It seems that he didn't. The divine person didn't die, because the divine person can't die.

:roll:

Jesus did die and his soul and spirit went to Hell, as a Sacrifice for ALL the sins of Mankind.

It does bear repeating ;-)

PHIL121, assuming his soul and spirit went to hell (a point which many christians would dispute), what happened there?

Stripped on his human nature, he sure didn't suffer. His divine nature, being perfect and omnipotent, was not lessened by being there. You would say he is no less God and no less powerful as a result of his weekend down south, so how could his time in hell mean anything?

What sacrafice did his soul and spirit actually pay? Also, by spirit do you mean Holy Spirit? Or is there God(Jesus(Spirit)) and God(Spirit) which are different?
 
If Jesus didn't descend into Hell, where was He those three days?

My own belief is that not only did his physical body die, but for those three days the presence of the Holy Spirit also left Him, so in essence, He was spiritually dead as well.
God will not tolerate sin, and Jesus took ALL the sins of the world upon Him. This is why the sky grew dark , and Jesus cried out "My God, My God, Why have you foresaken me?" when he was crucified.
 
ThinkerMan said:
Stripped on his human nature, he sure didn't suffer. His divine nature, being perfect and omnipotent, was not lessened by being there. You would say he is no less God and no less powerful as a result of his weekend down south, so how could his time in hell mean anything?

What sacrafice did his soul and spirit actually pay?

If you want to try to lessen Jesus' death by saying that He was God so He didn't have anything to lose, I don't think that's true. Sure, He definitely knew that He had heaven ahead of Him, but imagine the sacrifices that He chose to make and the anguish there must have been?
Jesus did sacrifice a lot concerning His dominion that He had by coming down here to earth. Not that He was in any lesser sense God, but He was definitely humbling Himself by coming down here to be a human. Imagine the King of the World being willing to be stipped naked and hung on a cross, brutally beaten? "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!" Philippians 2:6-8.
Also, imagine what it must have been like for the Son of God to bear on His soul all of the sins of the world? 2 Corinthians 5:21: "God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed." 1 Peter 2:24.
Like Phil pointed out, He was in anguish, the load of our sins upon His shoulders, and expressed this when He cried out to God. He was feeling the effects of our sin.
-McQ 8-)
 
ThinkerMan said:
What sacrafice did his soul and spirit actually pay?
Luke 22:44 (my emphasis), "And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

Doesn't sound like a picnic in the park to me. Then there was the crucifixion, developed by the Romans to be the most agonizing form of punishment. Then to have God turn His face from you and spend three days in hell. You don't think this was hard on his spirit? Yet, He did this all willingly.

Only someone with a hardened heart can say that this was not a sacrifice. Or, perhaps, you do not understand that the soul is the mind, will and emotions of a person. Jesus knew what was ahead of Him, yet He made up His mind to continue. Jesus submitted His will to the will of God (Luke 22:42). Again, I refer to Luke 22:44 as proof that Jesus' emotions were being tested as well. Is that not a sacrifice?
 
McQuacks said:
Jesus did sacrifice a lot concerning His dominion that He had by coming down here to earth. Not that He was in any lesser sense God, but He was definitely humbling Himself by coming down here to be a human.


Why would this be a problem for a perfect Deity?

If the Son was full of arrogant pride before he became incarnate, then we can see that it would require some effort to "humble himself". If, however, the Son was perfectly humble before he became incarnate, I can't see that it would be a problem.

:D
 
kwag_myers said:
Then there was the crucifixion, developed by the Romans to be the most agonizing form of punishment.


It may well have been a painful death, but as Quath has pointed out, some people in concentration camps would have suffered far more than Jesus.
 
PHIL121 said:
only that the Sacrifice must be without blemish (sin), which Jesus was.


If you want a sacrifice without sin then you can use any animal, because animals can't sin.

:D
 
kwag meyers said:
You don't think this was hard on his spirit?

Nothing should be hard for the perfect divine god. So no, I don't think this was hard on his spirit, were it to be true.

As for his human-part, he suffered, but no more than many others have suffered. The fact that he was God and came out unscathed actually makes his "sacrifice" trite and meaningless, in my opinion.

Only someone with a hardened heart can say that this was not a sacrifice.

No. I would not say that someone who experienced the holocaust made a sacrifice. They were simply tortured. Torture and death does not imply nor necessitate sacrifice.



I still fail to see what sacrifice Jesus made. He is no less powerful, no less god, no less perfect than he was before.

If you admit that he is not perfect or all powerful, then I suppose he could be said to have suffered. However, Christians are generally unwilling to accept this.

Again, I refer to Luke 22:44 as proof that Jesus' emotions were being tested as well.

Its not a real test if the outcome was never in question. If Jesus was perfect, then there was a zero percent chance that he would fail the test. It seems merely an academic excercise, and appears quite incompatible with the claim of omnipotence and perfect knowledge.
 
DivineNames said:
McQuacks said:
Jesus did sacrifice a lot concerning His dominion that He had by coming down here to earth. Not that He was in any lesser sense God, but He was definitely humbling Himself by coming down here to be a human.


Why would this be a problem for a perfect Deity?

If the Son was full of arrogant pride before he became incarnate, then we can see that it would require some effort to "humble himself". If, however, the Son was perfectly humble before he became incarnate, I can't see that it would be a problem.

:D

I'm speaking in the sense of His choosing to leave His kingdom in Heaven, where we see God is highly honored among the angels, etc., and coming down to earth. He says, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." Matthew 8:20. In this way He was humbling Himself as far as position is concerned. He came down here where He was rejected by men, tortured, persecuted. Was that in any way easy for Him?
Physically, He knew the pain He would have endure, and like Phil pointed out, He was so anguished that His sweat turned to blood.
Spiritually, He knew that He would be bearing the sins of the world on His body.
To try to say that His sacrifice was easy just because He is God is wrong. He fully endured all of the pain. He did not use His divine powers to somehow lessen the pain for Himself, He knew that was how it had to be. The Pharisees mocked Him while walking by the cross and said, "Ha, so you're the King of the Jews, the Son of God, eh? Why don't you get Yourself down from there? Take Yourself out of this situation, if you can!" He couldn't, and wouldn't, because He knew that He had to endure the full amount of pain in order to pay for our sins.
His pain was not in any way lessened because He was God - as we can see from the scriptures, He fully endured it all. He endured it just as we would, but with any even more overbearing feeling - He had all of our sins upon Him, a sacrifice we could never endure.
Jesus had emotions. He experienced hunger (Matthew 4:2), thirst (John 19:28), tiredness (John 4:6), love and compassion (Matthew 9:36), sorrow and grief (John 11:35), and temptation (Matthew 4:1). Again, just like Paul says, "Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death even death on a cross!" Philippians 2:6-8.
-McQ 8-)
 
McQuacks said:
He fully endured all of the pain. He did not use His divine powers to somehow lessen the pain for Himself, He knew that was how it had to be.


How does Jesus experiencing pain help to atone for the sins of all men?


If God decides to accept the Jesus 'sacrafice' as sufficient to atone for all man's sin, then couldn't he have decided to accept something else instead, like a sheep?

Is there a good reason why it had to be Jesus?
 
"Aquinas' interpretation of Anselm's thinking was that by taking humankind's punishment, Jesus earned "merit", through which the sacraments can convey grace and enable salvation. Known as the commercial or satisfaction theory, Aquinas' view is the dominant view of the Roman Catholic Church"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substitutionary_atonement


I wouldn't know if this really is the 'dominant view' of the Roman Catholic Church. Is it?
 
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