More pressure on Calvinism

[farley]

I am beginning to think that I have found a passage in the book of John that just may end up illuminating a major flaw in the works of Calvin.

While composing a response to another, regarding a passage often used in support of Calvinism…

John 10:27-29 KJV
(27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
(28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
(29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

…I recalled the following passage, from a different study…

John 18:8-9 KJV
(8) Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
(9) That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

…which, in my opinion, seems to complete the message started in the above passage from Chapter 10.

Perhaps I should add another passage that I considered, and feel is key to bear in mind, while contemplating the two passages above.

John 15:16 KJV
(16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

After carefully studying these passages, and their context, I get a significantly different meaning than Calvin.

Rather than forge ahead here, and muddy everything up with more of my views, I would be interested to hear the opinions of others regarding the quality of the “fit†of these two passages together, and any “interpretations†that may result.

In Christ,

farley

 

[Merry Menagerie]

The sheep which God gave the Lord...he didn't lose any.

I'm sorry, I don't see the contradiction.

 

[farley]

Hi Merry,

I see Judas Iscariot as being one of Jesus' sheep.

How would you determine Judas' betrayal of Jesus, as Judas not counted as being lost?

In Christ,

farley

 

[Merry Menagerie]

But it was prophecied that the son of perdition was to be lost. Notice it says 'son' (singular). That prophecy was fulfilled in Judas. After that - no sheep will be lost.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Good point Merry Menagerie. I think it is quite clear that Judas was not and is not part of the elect. On that note I will say no more because I’m interesting in discussing Calvinism on this board because all that see from such discussions is animosity.

I think the discussion on doctrine such as Calvinism and Arminianism is important but not more important then discussing the love of Christ. The fact is no matter which side you lean on all are brothers and sisters in Christ and all will be saved.

 

[JM]

Hi Merry,

I see Judas Iscariot as being one of Jesus' sheep.

How would you determine Judas' betrayal of Jesus, as Judas not counted as being lost?

In Christ,

farley

John 17 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Judas was lost to fulfill Scripture.

 

[JM]

But it was prophecied that the son of perdition was to be lost. Notice it says 'son' (singular). That prophecy was fulfilled in Judas. After that - no sheep will be lost.

lol MM, I didn't read what you wrote and just made my post! We're on the same page... :D

 

[AVBunyan]

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Devils don't get saved :-?

 

[farley]

JM and AV,

Thanks for the references!

I'm in agreement with you, and MM as well, on this point. I'm not trying to say that Judas is in anyway an issue related to my OP.

I was trying to determine if MM may have been seeing things differently, though.

Thanks, again!

In Christ,

farley

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Devils don't get saved

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11)

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

These are God's words, not mine.

 

[JM]

Devils don't get saved

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2:11)

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

These are God's words, not mine.

'...every tongue SHOULD...'

God's plan remains.

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

Yes and you are doing what is known as eisegesis

A good rule of thumb is to look at the context of the passages…it is dangerous to just take a verse here and a verse there to support YOUR ideas.

I can do the something you just did:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Job 7:11
7â€ÂRemember now, who ever perished being innocent?
Or where were the upright destroyed?â€Â

Ok so I guess that means nothing bad ever happens to good people.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

See how wrong that is.

If I had taken that verse in context I would have learned that Eliphaz had come to Job and was trying to get him to repent of wrong doing because he did not understand why Job was suffering. If you go to Job 1:8 we find that Job is “a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil.â€Â


Try practicing exegesis.

 

[Guest]

Well I was a born again christian since 1996 and this year I have rejected the claims of christainity, so I am a "lost sheep" so there goes the once saved always saved doctrine.

To those that may say that I was never really born again, yes I was. I know what I believed in my heart and how God changed my life. I just believe that I was given the wrong information about who God is, but it doesnt matter aslong as a person serves God. In the end God will give to those who have earned and punish those who have done wrong. 7 laws of Noah

1-Idolatry is forbidden. Man is commanded to believe in the One G-d alone and worship only Him.

2-Incestuous and adulterous relations are forbidden. Human beings are not sexual objects, nor is pleasure the ultimate goal of life.

3-Murder is forbidden. The life of a human being, formed in G-d's image, is sacred.

4-Cursing the name of G-d is forbidden. Besides honoring and respecting G-d, we learn from this precept that our speech must be sanctified, as that is the distinctive sign which separated man from the animals.

5-Theft is forbidden. The world is not ours to do with as we please.

6-Eating the flesh of a living animal is forbidden. This teaches us to be sensitive to cruelty to animals. (This was commanded to Noah for the first time along with the permission of eating meat. The rest were already given to Adam in the Garden of Eden.)

7-Mankind is commanded to establish courts of justice and a just social order to enforce the first six laws and enact any other useful laws or customs.


Yes I was born again at one time, truly born again like the NT says it. Died with Christ and born to a new life through his ressurection.

 

[farley]

Huuummmm...

I just believe that I was given the wrong information about who God is, but it doesnt matter aslong as a person serves God.

You may not care to go further into this!

If so, I'll drop it, but...what were you told about God?

In Christ,

farley

 

[Gary]

Well I was a born again christian since 1996 and this year I have rejected the claims of christainity, so I am a "lost sheep" so there goes the once saved always saved doctrine.

Your posts hardly display any understanding of Scripture or the saving grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. You never once have mentioned the Holy Spirit..... an essential part of the "born again" experience.

It is easy to CLAIM you were once saved or born again. However, your fruit quickly dispel that notion.

:-?

 

[Guest]

I was told that God was Jesus, I had a spiritual awakening in 1996, something changed in me, my life was changed. I went from a drug abusing, selfish loser who hated himself to loving God and serving him. This is what I was shown, that the bible is real and you can't question it. I accepted it for the truth, but years of studying other religions to defend christainity to others and be sufficient in giving an answer to any man that asked. I came acoss many objections within the NT, many problems that I just burried for years and said it can't be true, so in my head I make any excuse to not believe the contradictions. Then after years of delving into other religions and there beliefes, which I can defend christainity vs these spin off relgions. I started with Judiasm and just wanted to know why didn't the jews accept there own messiah. After studing Judiasm and what there belief in messiah is and the fact that they accused us of stealing there bible, like we accuse many other religions of stealing the NT and twisted it around to fit there erverted religion. I saw the same thing in christainity, between the NT errors and what the Jews believed messiah would be and the true messainic prophecies , I came to realize after a while Jesus is not the messiah. Even after starting to look into judiasm, I still didn;t want to believe Jesus wasn;t God, I made excuse after excuse, but then it became overwhelming evidence to say that he is not God.

 

[Guest]

Gary I was born again in 1996, I acceting Jesus in my life, I was baptized also at this time, in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Although I dont accept christainity now, please don't question me when I say I was a christian. I served and loved Jesus with all my heart, I will never love anyone as much I loved Jesus.

 

[Gary]

As I said, you have never mentioned the indwelling Holy Spirit..... an essential part of the "born again" experience. Again, you failed to mention that in the two posts above.

.

 

[Guest]

So what if I didn't mention it. I was born again, I know what I believed, and I know I believed in Jesus. Know your'e trying to say that I can't tell if I was born again or not? I think I know my life better than you know mine, the problem you have is that I have said I used to be born again, but I have denounced christainity, which puts another hole in the NT teaching of once saved always saved. In John 10:28 Jesus says he will give his sheep eternal life and no one can snatch them from his hand, but my life story makes trhese passage in error. The problem with you is that your'e so scared to hear any problems with the NT text, that you will block it out in your head, justify anyway you can, ignore it, or flat out just remain blinded that the NT has errors. I was like you are at one time, but if you look at the NT and challenge the text and stories you will see what the truth is.

You will probaly say you aren't his sheep, well at one time I did follow Jesus, worshipped Jesus, adored Jesus, I was madly in love with Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

1-1 John 5:13 another verse that teaches assurance of eternal salvation - wrong again John
2-The whole book of John is one big testemant that eternal life is assured for the christian - wrong
3-Ephesians 2:8 teaches that we are saved by grace and not by works. Well if I was a christian and saved then, now Iam not a christian anymore and not saved. This sounds like I had something to do with my salvation, if its not by works, then who cares how any christian lives, they are all going to heaven.
4 Phil 1:6 teaches God will finish the good work he started, does this aplly to me?
The modern day pastor will say that when God looks at a christian he sees Jesus' blood and sees his perfect son, the sin is remebered no more. Romans 8:1 therefore there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus, so I guess I am still going to heaven, once saved always saved right?

 

[Gary]

You will probaly say you aren't his sheep, well at one time I did follow Jesus, worshipped Jesus, adored Jesus, I was madly in love with Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Muslims say the same thing. They say they follow Jesus because they worship God like Jesus did. They say they adore Jesus.

However, like you, they know nothing about the indwelling Holy Spirit..... an essential element in a "born again" experience.

.