Must the commandments in the O.T. be obeyed in order to be/remain saved?

[GodsGrace]

We here on this site seem to be arguing about a something I thought was a known fact.

Here are some questions....

1. What is the Law of Moses?

2. Are the Laws understood to be in different categories?

3. Are we required to obey the 10 commandments in order to be or remain saved?

 

[JLB]

1. What is the Law of Moses?

The law of Moses were the law of commandments contained in ordinances given to the children of Israel, through Moses which created a “fence” around the Abrahamic Covenant, through which God promised Abraham to give his offspring the land of
“promise”; Israel.

In order for God to be able to fulfill His promise, He must become an enemy to the enemies of His covenant people, which involved his covenant people, the children of Israel, and them walking in covenant relationship with Him.


Furthermore these laws and commandments were to foreshadow the Messiah, instructing the children of Israel as a school master, to recognize the Messiah when He appeared.





JLB

 

[JLB]

2. Are the Laws understood to be in different categories?

I think some have tried to implement the idea of categorizing the law of Moses to better understand that some of things we are supposed to obey today, and some of the things have become obsolete.

• Who was the law of Moses given to —

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

• What part of the law were the children of Israel required to obey

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10


again



And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:3-4




But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18



JLB

 

[JLB]

Are we required to obey the 10 commandments in order to be or remain saved?

There are many more than 10.


Is hate one of the “10 Commandments“?


Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15




The Sabbath ordinance as required by the law of Moses is no longer in effect.


The Sabbath is the seventh day of the week.

The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.




JLB

 

[JLB]

Are we required to obey the 10 commandments in order to be or remain saved?

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



Keeping His Commandments are how we remain in Christ.




JLB

 

[Truthfrees]

We here on this site seem to be arguing about a something I thought was a known fact.

Here are some questions....

1. What is the Law of Moses?

2. Are the Laws understood to be in different categories?

3. Are we required to obey the 10 commandments in order to be or remain saved?

1. Law of Moses aka the Holy Laws of God are all the instructions God gave Moses -

2. God's laws are understood to be in different categories

3. the 10 commandments can't save or unsave anyone -

 

[JLB]

1. Law of Moses aka the Holy Laws of God are all the instructions God gave Moses - which is the basis of all other expansions/clarifications given by the prophets and Messiah and others - Jesus promoted/expounded/clarified all the laws God gave and so did paul - Matthew 5:19 - Matthew 13:52 - Romans 3:31

Where in the scriptures does it say the law of Moses is “the holy laws of God”.


Jesus said that nothing would pass from the law “until“ it was fulfilled.


“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.


I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


Therefore Paul plainly teaches us that the law of Moses was abolished.


For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. Ephesians 5:14-16

• and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two,

As Paul says, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, which refers to the law of Moses, was the enmity, the dividing wall of separation, between Jew and Gentile.

This dividing wall separating Jew and Gentile, uncircumcised and circumcised, has been abolished in His flesh, so that the
“one new man”, could come forth, thus making peace between Jew and Gentile.


This is the revelation of the New Covenant.


Abraham was the type and shadow of this new man, being a gentile yet being the father of the Jews.

Being a Jew inwardly and a Gentile outwardly.


having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:14-17



JLB

 

[JLB]

God's laws are understood to be in different categories usually only by those who love and study and try to proactively live by God's laws

Is it the law of Christ for uncircumcised Gentile men to become physically circumcised?


The law of Moses required this.



JLB

 

[Drew]

1. What is the Law of Moses?

613 items from the Old Testament, including the 10 commandments. It is a law to be followed by Jews and Jews only.

2. Are the Laws understood to be in different categories?

Not really - while we can, naturally, think of certain laws as being "moral" and others as "ceremonial", I see no Biblical evidence that some items are to be treated differently from other items.

3. Are we required to obey the 10 commandments in order to be or remain saved?

Hard to answer this question. I believe we need to "persist in doing good" to be saved. So if you are murdering people, that does not bode well. But do we need to obey the rule about the Sabbath? I very much doubt it. Again, though, I see no Biblical basis for treating any of the 613 elements and different from the others.

Besides, the Law of Moses, including the big 10, was for Jews and Jews only (I suspect people will challenge this claim).

 

[Drew]

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Matthew 5:17-18


Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.


I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


Therefore Paul plainly teaches us that the law of Moses was abolished.

I agree with your conclusion but would add the following: people think that, based on Matt 5:17-18, the Law will last until the end of the world. While that is understandable, it overlooks a key feature of how Jews used language - they would sometimes use "end-of-the-world" language metaphorically to describe events that involve significant change. There are examples in the Old Testament as well as in non-Biblical Jewish writing.

So when Jesus says the Law will last till "heaven and earth pass away", there is a strong reason to believe He did not intend to be taken literally. And, as I have posted elsewhere, I think it is not a coincidence that Jesus's last recorded words on the cross were, yes, "it is finished". Note the connection back to Matt 5:17-18.

In conclusion: I suggest there is strong reason to doubt that Jesus is really saying the Law lasts until the end of time.

 

[JLB]

I agree with your conclusion but would add the following: people think that, based on Matt 5:17-18, the Law will last until the end of the world. While that is understandable, it overlooks a key feature of how Jews used language - they would sometimes use "end-of-the-world" language metaphorically to describe events that involve significant change. There are examples in the Old Testament as well as in non-Biblical Jewish writing.

So when Jesus says the Law will last till "heaven and earth pass away", there is a strong reason to believe He did not intend to be taken literally. And, as I have posted elsewhere, I think it is not a coincidence that Jesus's last recorded words on the cross were, yes, "it is finished". Note the connection back to Matt 5:17-18.

In conclusion: I suggest there is strong reason to doubt that Jesus is really saying the Law lasts until the end of time.

Amen.


I believe we can all agree that Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. Matthew 5:17


From this foundation of unity we should all be able to discuss things about the law of Moses, and the New Covenant while keeping this all important fact in mind, that Jesus fulfilled the law.




JLB

 

[jerry63935]

Where in the scriptures does it say the law of Moses is “the holy laws of God”.

this is what it says
Romans 7:12-14 King James Version (KJV)
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
1 Timothy 1:8
But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,

Romans 6:13-15 King James Version (KJV)
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
we dont live by the law to be saved but it is a guide

 

[GodsGrace]

The law of Moses were the law of commandments contained in ordinances given to the children of Israel, through Moses which created a “fence” around the Abrahamic Covenant, through which God promised Abraham to give his offspring the land of
“promise”; Israel.

In order for God to be able to fulfill His promise, He must become an enemy to the enemies of His covenant people, which involved his covenant people, the children of Israel, and them walking in covenant relationship with Him.


Furthermore these laws and commandments were to foreshadow the Messiah, instructing the children of Israel as a school master, to recognize the Messiah when He appeared.





JLB

I'm not sure what this "fence" is that you mention, but we're not speaking about Covenants.
My explanation is much simpler....
The Law of Moses are the 613 laws that were given to Moses and which were to be followed by the Israelites and their offspring and which some are following to this day.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think some have tried to implement the idea of categorizing the law of Moses to better understand that some of things we are supposed to obey today, and some of the things have become obsolete.

• Who was the law of Moses given to —

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Romans 3:19

• What part of the law were the children of Israel required to obey

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” Galatians 3:10


again



And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:3-4




But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Galatians 5:18



JLB

The above testifies that we are not saved by works, which is what we would be doing in trying to follow the entire Law of Moses if we were in some sects of the Jewish religion.

 

[GodsGrace]

Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24



Keeping His Commandments are how we remain in Christ.




JLB

Agreed.
If we are not following God's commandments, we are probably no longer disciples of Jesus...if we are not disciples, then we are not IN CHRIST.

 

[GodsGrace]

1. Law of Moses aka the Holy Laws of God are all the instructions God gave Moses - which is the basis of all other expansions/clarifications given by the prophets and Messiah and others - Jesus promoted/expounded/clarified all the laws God gave and so did paul - Matthew 5:19 - Matthew 13:52 - Romans 3:31

2. God's laws are understood to be in different categories usually only by those who love and study and try to proactively live by God's laws

3. the 10 commandments can't save or unsave anyone - if you love God you will obey His laws - if you mess up God loves you enough to provide grace /mercy/ forgiveness/ cleansing from your sins - God instituted sacrifice for sins at the same time He gave His laws - He knew very well that people will mess up and need grace/cleansing - that is just as true today as it was 3500 years ago

BINGO!
Agreed on all three.
So nice not to be all alone here!

And as you, and others, like JLB and for_his_glory , have noted,,,God's (10) commandments were given to us even before Moses...it is known as the Natural Law and is from the beginnning.
(not 10, actually).

 

[GodsGrace]

613 items from the Old Testament, including the 10 commandments. It is a law to be followed by Jews and Jews only.

Agreed, except for the 10 commandments.
Paul said there is no need for circumcision.....a ceremonial law abolished.
Paul said there is to be no fornication....a moral law upheld.

Not really - while we can, naturally, think of certain laws as being "moral" and others as "ceremonial", I see no Biblical evidence that some items are to be treated differently from other items.

What about my answer above re circumcision?
The reason there are categories is BECAUSE some have been abolished.

Hard to answer this question. I believe we need to "persist in doing good" to be saved. So if you are murdering people, that does not bode well. But do we need to obey the rule about the Sabbath? I very much doubt it. Again, though, I see no Biblical basis for treating any of the 613 elements and different from the others.

There's a question regarding the Sabbath....let's not get into that here. I say 10 because most believe there are 10...we could say 9 commandments.

And do you know WHY the Sabbath probably does not need to be obeyed?
Because it is a Ceremonial Law and NOT a Moral Law as are the other 9 commandments.
This is why there is disagreement.....

Besides, the Law of Moses, including the big 10, was for Jews and Jews only (I suspect people will challenge this claim).

Were we not grafted in?
Are there 2 different groups that make the Body of Christ.....the Jews and the Gentiles...
or is there only 1 Body of Christ?
Romans 11:17
But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,

Do we SHARE in the nourishing root of the olive tree...
or do we use a DIFFERENT tree for nourishment?

 

[Drew]

we dont live by the law to be saved but it is a guide

I agree that Paul describes the law as "holy" and good in Romans 7. But that does not necessarily mean it is still to be used, even as a "guide". Paul can agree that the law is good and yet also believe it has been superseded. I understand that you might object that Paul uses the present tense. Fair enough, we can talk about that. I think it is quite clear from considering Romans 7 and on into 8, that Paul sees the Law of Moses as something that has been "retired" - even as a "guide".

 

[Drew]

Agreed, except for the 10 commandments.

On what Biblical basis do you determine that the 10 commandments do not apply to Jews only? I suspect you are just using common sense. Well, that would be like arguing that because it is common sense that Canadians should not commit murder, this means that Canadians are under American law because murder is illegal in the USA.

This last point is so critical, it bears repeating: a moral law, enshrined in a set of laws "A" does not mean that is universal simply because everyone should behave in a way that conforms to what A prescribes! This is obvious! The fact that murder is against American law does not mean that all human beings are subject to American law even if we all agree that murder is immoral for anyone, American or not.

God gave the Law of Moses, including the 10 commandments to Israel and Israel alone. And the fact that no human being - Jew or otherwise - should not murder or steal does not mean that the 10 commandments apply to everyone.

 

[Drew]

1. Law of Moses aka the Holy Laws of God are all the instructions God gave Moses - which is the basis of all other expansions/clarifications given by the prophets and Messiah and others - Jesus promoted/expounded/clarified all the laws God gave and so did paul - Matthew 5:19 - Matthew 13:52 - Romans 3:31

All right, let's talk about "expansion". I agree with you that Jesus gave commandments that were "expansions" of certain Old Testament laws. Fine. But the fact that Jesus modified these OT commandments means that they are indeed left behind and replaced with the modified version.