Nazarene Christians (food for thought)

[wavy]

I'm looking for apologetics as to why this group of believers, the first believers, are considered heretics. This is NOT the promotion of a different religion, moderators. This is for doctrinal discussion purposes.

An excerpt from one interesting website:

Who were the Nazarenes?

The first believers in Y'shua were a Jewish sect known as "Nazarenes" or in Hebrew "N'tzarim" (Acts 11:19; Acts 24:5). The "church father" Jerome (4th Cent.) described these Nazarenes as those "...who accept Messiah in such a way that they do not cease to observe the old Law." (Jerome; On. Isaiah 8:14). The fourth century "church father" Epiphanius gives a more detailed description:

"But these sectarians... did not call themselves Christians--but "Nazarenes," ... However they are simply complete Jews. They use not only the New Testament but the Old Testament as well, as the Jews do... They have no different ideas, but confess everything exactly as the Law proclaims it and in the Jewish fashion-- except for their belief in Messiah, if you please! For they acknowledge both the resurrection of the dead and the divine creation of all things, and declare that G-d is one, and that his son is Y'shua the Messiah. They are trained to a nicety in Hebrew. For among them the entire Law, the Prophets, and the... Writings... are read in Hebrew, as they surely are by the Jews. They are different from the Jews, and different from Christians, only in the following. They disagree with Jews because they have come to faith in Messiah; but since they are still fettered by the Law--circumcision, the Sabbath, and the rest-- they are not in accord with Christians.... they are nothing but Jews.... They have the Goodnews according to Matthew in its entirety in Hebrew. For it is clear that they still preserve this, in the Hebrew alphabet, as it was originally written."

(Epiphanius; Panarion 29)

Taken from: ancienthistory.about.com

More food for thought:

Nazarene is a Biblical appellation for Jesus, as in Jesus the Nazarene. This is often understood as meaning Jesus of (the town of) Nazareth, although modern scholarship suggests this interpretation is incorrect...

Taken from: wikipedia.com, under "Nazarene"

All this while I have been referring to the Jerusalem community as Jewish Christians. Strictly speaking, the use of the term "Christian" is incorrect and I have used (and will continue to use) this mainly for want of a more appropriate term.

Taken from: geocities.com; "A Skeptic's Argument"

Sect of primitive Christianity; it appears to have embraced all those Christians who had been born Jews and who neither would nor could give up their Jewish mode of life. They were probably the descendants of the Judæo-Christians who had fled to Pella before Titus destroyed Jerusalem; afterward most of them, like the Essenes in former times, with whom they had some characteristics in common, lived in the waste lands around the Dead Sea, and hence remained out of touch with the rest of Christendom.

Taken from: jewishencyclopedia.com, under "Nazarenes"

Note: We are the only followers of Ribi Yehoshua as Mashiakh having documentation of our legitimacy in the Orthodox Jewish Community anywhere in the world. All other web sites claiming to be Netzarim, Nazarenes, etc. are self-proclaimed counterfeits. They are, every one, "look-alike" false teachers, deceivers who lack authenticity and legitimacy in the legitimate  Orthodox (Pharisaic)  Jewish community of Israel in which Ribi Yehoshua lived and taught Torah as a Pharisee (Ribi) himself! Ours is the only legitimate web site of authentic Netzarim who are in good standing in the Israeli Orthodox Jewish community in which Ribi Yehoshua lived and taught. We are headquartered in Raanana, Israel.

Taken from: http://www.netzarim.co.il/


Another Nazarene website:

Statement of Enumah (faith)


WE BELIEVE ...

... in the virgin birth of the Messiah Yahshua (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23)

... in the complete deity of Yahshua the Master. In Him dwelt all the fullness of Yahweh Elohim in bodily form (Colossians 2:9).

... in His death, burial, physical resurrection and subsequent ascension to the right hand of the Father, where He sits as the high priest over New Covenant Israel (Psalm 110:1).

... that Yahshua reigns over New Covenant Israel as the Cohen HaGadol of the Melchizedekian order. He will fulfill this role forever (Hebrews 7:17)...

Taken from: yourarmstoisrael.com, under "About YATI"

There are many organizations now claiming an identification with the
ancient Sect of the Netzarim/Nazarenes. One even claims to be the
only "authentic" representation of Netzarim Judaism.
Many of these organizations differ substantially with what we know
historically about the ancient sect of the Nazarenes. The purpose
of this article is to outline some of the historical characteristics
which we know the ancient Nazarenes had, which many of these pseudo-
Nazarene organizations lack.

Beware of so-called "authentic" Nazarene/Netzarim Judaism that does
not have these characteristics. There is nothing
historically "authentic" about these groups.

Taken from: The Historical Characteristics of the AUTHENTIC Netzarim.



Any insight would be worth a house of gold. While I haven't studied this on any scholarly level, I do find something interesting as this relates to the scriptures:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

The Hebrew for "branches" is Netzarim. So basically, what Yahshua proclaimed was "I am the vine, you are the Nazarenes".

He also made this prophecy concerning the Nazarenes:

John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth YHWH service.

This was fulfilled in 70 C.E. when the Nazarenes were thrown out at the council of Yavneh. I think one of the links may touch on this.

 

[Georges]

Wavy...when you research the Nazarenes take care when comparing them to the modern Nazarenes. I do believe that the ancient Nazarenes are not, or do not have the same belief system of the modern Nazarenes. I'm pretty sure that the ancient Nazarene movement petered out by the 3rd Century....The European Christians didn't want them because they practiced a Jewish Christianity, the Jew's didn't want to associate with them as a result of the Bar Kochba rebellion.

Jesus, James, Peter, John were all Nazarene Christians. They continued to practice Judaism under the freedom that Jesus provided.

The main thorn to European Christianity was that the Nazarenes/Ebionites (2 similar groups) practiced a Jewish Christianity. Aledgedly, there were "some" groups of Ebionites that denied the Virgin birth of Christ, some supported the Virgin birth. Also, I believe they did not support a co-equal trinity. I think they believed that God was supreme, Jesus was a man who was born of a Virgin, and kept the Torah completely as the Son of God. Not a lot is known about them....I think Christian History swept them under the carpet.

 

[wavy]

Wavy...when you research the Nazarenes take care when comparing them to the modern Nazarenes. I do believe that the ancient Nazarenes are not, or do not have the same belief system of the modern Nazarenes.

Depends on if modern Nazarenes have the same beliefs as the 1st century ones. When you run into a group claiming that title, I guess you just have to be able to search and see.

I'm pretty sure that the ancient Nazarene movement petered out by the 3rd Century...

I've seen something online that traces them to the 13th century before "assimilation", but it was only one article. Haven't investigated it yet. But yeah, by the 4th century, they seem to have disappeared. I do not think they did, however.

Jesus, James, Peter, John were all Nazarene Christians. They continued to practice Judaism under the freedom that Jesus provided.

Indeed.

The main thorn to European Christianity was that the Nazarenes/Ebionites (2 similar groups) practiced a Jewish Christianity.

According to the little research I've done, it wasn't until later into the 3rd and 4th centuries when Ebionites and Nazarenes were all affiliated with eachother. But it's critical to distinguish them from one another. The Ebionites grew out of the Nazarene sect. And as you point out below, they had quite a few false doctrines going for them.

Aledgedly, there were "some" groups of Ebionites that denied the Virgin birth of Christ, some supported the Virgin birth. Also, I believe they did not support a co-equal trinity. I think they believed that God was supreme, Jesus was a man who was born of a Virgin, and kept the Torah completely as the Son of God. Not a lot is known about them....I think Christian History swept them under the carpet.

According to one "church father", I think he outlines some of what the early Nazarenes believed concerning deity. If you want to know more, you can read The Greater and Lesser YHWH.

 

[Guest]

I find no heresy.

 

[wavy]

Good. I respect that. Many "kirch" (church) fathers claimed differently. Several of them were also very anti-semitic.

And still today, many look at the Nazarene community as demonized legalists who deny Yahshua and "worship the law", as was told to me recently by an anti-Torah believer.

 

[cj]

The Hebrew for "branches" is Netzarim. So basically, what Yahshua proclaimed was "I am the vine, you are the Nazarenes".

I suggest you take another look at that Wavy.

And while you're at it, read the entire thought of Jesus, from verse 1 - 11, you might find that the thinking you presented does not make sense when taken in the context of the entire series of verses.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

Well, I suggest we can all present our views outside of a condescending manner. If not, please stay out of this thread.

And for the record, verses 1-11 do not disprove the prophecy or the fact that his followers were the Nazarenes...

 

[Georges]

Also,

I believe that the early Nazarenes (certainly the Ebonites) generally rejected Paul's teachings. I believe the Ebonites considered Paul an apostate. Of course these Jewish Christians (Ebonites) may have been descended from the Pharisaic school of Shammai....These were they that accused Paul of teaching against circumcision in Acts 15. The Nazarene Christians would have been from the Pharisaic school of Hillel, and would have been more Gentile friendly in regard to circumcision, or more tolerant of Paul.

 

[wavy]

Of course these Jewish Christians (Ebonites) may have been descended from the Pharisaic school of Shammai....These were they that accused Paul of teaching against circumcision in Acts 15.

Acts 21 :wink: (sure it was just a mistake)

The Nazarene Christians would have been from the Pharisaic school of Hillel, and would have been more Gentile friendly in regard to circumcision, or more tolerant of Paul.

Yes, indeed. They accepted Paul and his writings and all his dealings with the gentiles. However, still, I am curious as to where you get your information.

 

[Georges]

Of course these Jewish Christians (Ebonites) may have been descended from the Pharisaic school of Shammai....These were they that accused Paul of teaching against circumcision in Acts 15.

Acts 21 :wink: (sure it was just a mistake)

No....I meant Acts 15, although I do usually include Acts 21 as they are tied together. Thanks for keeping me on my toes though... 8-) It is the same group (Shammaite Christians) in both Chapters.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, [and said], Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. These would have been Pharasaic Christians of the School of Shammai. The group who held stricter opinion concerning Mosaic Law, or I should say the man made law surrounding Mosaic Law in their Christianity.
Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

The Nazarene Christians would have been from the Pharisaic school of Hillel, and would have been more Gentile friendly in regard to circumcision, or more tolerant of Paul.

Yes, indeed. They accepted Paul and his writings and all his dealings with the gentiles. However, still, I am curious as to where you get your information.

Just about everywhere.......I take the info and if it Jive's with the Book, then I use it. Where did I start? Joseph Good from Hatikva Ministries has a Jewish Roots based website. He has done extensive studies on Theology including Bible prophecy from a Jewish perspective. He has many studies on the NT from a Jewish Roots slant. That is where I was first introduced to the Church Membership dynamics during that time period.

 

[wavy]

No....I meant Acts 15, although I do usually include Acts 21 as they are tied together. Thanks for keeping me on my toes though... 8-) It is the same group (Shammaite Christians) in both Chapters.

I thought you had meant the actual account of the accusation, since you said "in" Acts 15. I didn't know you meant the first mention of the group.

My fault.

Just about everywhere.......I take the info and if it Jive's with the Book, then I use it. Where did I start? Joseph Good from Hatikva Ministries has a Jewish Roots based website. He has done extensive studies on Theology including Bible prophecy from a Jewish perspective. He has many studies on the NT from a Jewish Roots slant. That is where I was first introduced to the Church Membership dynamics during that time period.

Interesting...

 

[cj]

Well, I suggest we can all present our views outside of a condescending manner. If not, please stay out of this thread.

And for the record, verses 1-11 do not disprove the prophecy or the fact that his followers were the Nazarenes...

As I said,..... go check your facts again.



And as for your "stay out of this thread" comment,..... go fly a kite with it.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

Whatever you say, cj...

 

[cj]

Whatever you say, cj...

So Wavy, I guess you're saying that rather than go check that you actually got the facts correct, you'd rather take a chance and stand by what you said even if you may end up looking foolish.

Okay.


In love,
cj

 

[wavy]

I repeat myself, cj.

And for the record, verses 1-11 do not disprove the prophecy or the fact that his followers were the Nazarenes...