New End Time Time line

[Alfred Persson]

I've updated my Timeline to include Christ's Millennial Kingdom and Judgement Day.

Of course ONLY the bible is 100% correct.

Hopefully, I got something right and its profitable to read.

I'd love to discuss any part of it here. Just copy paste the relevant part and go for it!

End Time Timeline of Events in the Last Days | End Time News

When the First Seal is opened (Rev. 6:2) the First Half of End-Time "Week" of 7 Years (= 84 months; 2,520 days) begins: A disclaimer: I am a Cessationist, a believer in the sufficiency of Scripture (sola scriptura). Not one word of this is "thus saith the Lord prophecy". I pray its correct so...

endtimenews.net

 

[dwb001]

Just a quick note...

You do know that a scroll can only be opened if all the seals are removed, right?
So spreading out the seals over a multi year time frame would be counter-indicative of the image in Chapter 5.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Just a quick note...

You do know that a scroll can only be opened if all the seals are removed, right?
So spreading out the seals over a multi year time frame would be counter-indicative of the image in Chapter 5.

I apologize, I didn't make it clear, I do not depict when the seals, trumpets or bowls appear. Everyone knows they follow each other linearly.

I was showing the events in a linear fashion, and that doesn't follow the linear sequence seals, trumpets and bowls.

When you discern Revelation is like a Quentin Tarantino movie where SCENES occur in a nonlinear fashion, flashing forward and backward in time, then you see my timeline isn't in error at all.

For example, the seventh Trumpet announces God is reining, but in fact at that time, before the bowls He is not. The time the seventh trumpet speaks of, was yet future. But its like celebrating a win before the battle, because its certain to be won.

But according to the logic of following the linear sequence the seals trumpets and bowls, that couldn't be as the bowls weren't yet poured out:

15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"
16 And the twenty-four elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 saying: "We give You thanks, O Lord God Almighty, The One who is and who was and who is to come, Because You have taken Your great power and reigned.
(Rev. 11:15-17 NKJ)

But I thank you for your objection. Its a point I will treat when I explain the timeline in detail.

 

[for_his_glory]

There is nowhere in scripture that teaches a seven year tribulation period, but only the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgements.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet sounding, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

 

[Alfred Persson]

There is nowhere in scripture that teaches a seven year tribulation period, but only the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgements.

God speaks to us in scripture of a 3 1/2 year tribulation during the time of the seventh trumpet sounding, not a seven year tribulation, as being time, times and half time which equals 1260 days = 3 ½ years or 3 ½ Times – Hebrew calendar only had 30 days for each month and this is where you get 1260 days or 3 ½ years.
[Scripture reference]
Revelation 12:14; Daniel 7:25; Daniel 12:7
1260 days – Revelation 11:3; Revelation 12:6
42 months – Revelation 11:2; Revelation 13:5

No where in scripture does it mention a seven year tribulation, but only seven trumpets of God's fierce wrath as scripture says we will always have tribulations as the last time will be such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21; Deut 4:30; 7:19; 29:1-6; 1 Samuel 26:24; Matthew; John 16:33; Romans 12:12; 24:21; James 1:2; 1 Peter 1:6.

Its simple math. The two witnesses preach 3.5 years and are slain by the beast when he appears. The beast then rules 3.5 years after he appears = 7 years

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev. 11:3 NKJ)

7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. (Rev. 11:7 NKJ)

The "man of sin" false Christ is the "lion's mouth" of the revived Grecian Roman Empire, but in the middle of the Week The empire is given a mouth speaking great things. That symbolizes the False Christ morphing into the Antichrist Beast "Prince" (Dan. 9:27), now the "mouth speaking great things." He has authority for 3.5 years. That's when he kills God's two witnesses = 7 yeaars

1 Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name.
2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast.
4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
(Rev. 13:1-5 NKJ)

The False Christ declares he actually is the seed of Satan and claims to be God in the Temple of God at midweek of the 7 year week, outlawing all religion not worshiping him, thus bringing and end to sacrifice and offering to God world wide

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan. 9:27 NKJ)

The Hebrew words "sacrifice and offering" do not refer to the "daily sacrifice".

 

[for_his_glory]

Revelation 11

Zechariah 4:1-6; 4:11-14 explains that these two witnesses are the word of God in all power and might and the Holy Spirit which is the oil that is poured out on those who God anoints with His Holy Spirit. There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit that are one and three that bear witness in earth as being the Holy Spirit, the word and the blood of Jesus and these three agree in one, 1 John 5:7, 8. Only God can give power to act on His word as the Holy Spirit and Jesus bare witness to Gods power and authority especially through signs and wonders.

God exercises His power and authority through those of His great commission of Matthew 28:18-20 who are sealed by the Holy Spirit, 2 Corinthians 1:22, who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. The sackcloth represents the anguish of Gods servants as they remain humbled before the Lord while baring witness to Gods wrath on the unrighteous as these witnesses go forth continuing to preach to the nations.

Zechariah 4 speaks of two olive trees, but only one candlestick in the Old Testament. In this study we read there are two candlesticks. The two olive trees are the two anointed ones as being the two witnesses that are the Holy Spirit whom discerns and confirms the word of God in us by teaching us all truths, John 14:26, and Jesus being the light that shines in darkness as being the word made flesh to walk among us, John 1:1-5.

John is given the understanding that the two witnesses are in comparison to the two candlesticks and two olive trees, which if you read Zechariah Chapter 4 it explains that the golden candlestick is God. The seven lamps with the seven pipes that holds the oil (anointing) is that of the seven Spirits of God given to His Church: wisdom, understanding, counsel, knowledge, reverence, might and Spirit of the Lord, Isaiah 11:2.

The two olive trees are to groups of people. One group being natural Israel (Old Testament) as a remnant according to the election of grace have been saved as in the 144,000 taken from the twelve tribes of Israel that remained faithful to God up to a thousand generations thereafter that remain faithful, 1 Chronicles 16:13-17. The other being Gentiles (New Testament) grafted into the branch by that same grace of God that have been washed in the blood of the Lamb and sealed by His Holy Spirit, John 3:3-7; Romans 10:9, 10; 2 Corinthians 1:22; Romans Chapter 11. The two witnesses have always been those who of faith have stood by God and His law in the Old Testament and those of faith who stand by God and Jesus under the dispensation of grace in the New Testament.

The Disciples were sent out to preach to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5, 6 and Paul to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, and so the same with these two witnesses throughout the generations as being two groups, one taking the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel and the other group taking the Gospel to the Gentiles until Christ returns. They will be persecuted to death as Jesus was and all the martyr's before them and their bodies will lay in the street for three and a half days and then the Spirit of life from God will enter them and they will be caught up to heaven in a cloud, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18. This will all occur during the seventh trumpet sounding as I believe all events during this time will happen quickly like 1 Corinthians 15:52 says in a twinkling of an eye we will all be changed and then caught up to Jesus during the seventh trumpet call.



Key points in Rev 11 about the two witnesses:

vs. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Compare these two verses with that of 1 Kings Chapter 18 where Elijah called on the Lord and He sent fire down from heaven and consumed the sacrifice. I'm not saying Elijah is one of the two witnesses, just making a comparison of the fire called down from heaven. Here we read these have power as I believe it is the same power Elijah had when he called on God to send fire down, but here even more than fire as in stopping the rain, turning water into blood and smite the earth with plagues. This is also the same power Moses had over Pharaoh, in Exodus 7-11

vs. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. 9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

The beast out of the bottomless pit in Rev 9:1-12 seem to be literal locust. The star John saw that fell from heaven and having the key to open the bottomless pit is Apollyon (destroyer) who is probably the same angel we read about in Revelation 20:1-3 that God gives the key to that opens the bottomless pit Satan will be shut up in. When the bottomless pit was opened locust came up out of it. In reference to smoke these locust would be to numerous to number, Judges 7:12, and look like dark smoke as they rise and swarm if you saw them from a distance. Once they became closer to your vision you would see that it wasn’t smoke, but a hoard of locust. Their attributes of what God is purposing them for is what gives them their power to sting as in tormenting those who have not the seal of God on them. They are compared as scorpions that literally sting using the power of their tails as they raise them above their head.

Again we see the mention of the bottomless pit in Rev 11:7 as here it says beast. Locust can be considered beast of torment, but in this scenerio God purposes them to kill the two witnesses. Their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city that is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt. The great city could be symbolic for every nation in the world as at this time in the end of days mystery Babylon with its Luciferian economic, political, military, environmental and religious system will be established in every nation on earth, as even now it is being implemented. Babylon was called the great city in Rev 14:8 and we read in Rev 19 that Jesus will destroy this great city that is called mystery Babylon.

One clue that the two witnesses are not just two people or two angels is that Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, but in a place called Golgotha just outside of Jerusalem, which in Aramaic means place of the skull. The second clue that it is not just two witnesses is the street is not localized or named because all the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. I believe the 3 1/2 days are a reference to the 3 1/2 years when the son of perdition takes a literal seat on the very foundation where the Temple was destroyed in 70 A.D. and now stands the Dome of the Rock since 691 A.D and even now is being refurbished for the man of sin who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.

My take is that the two witnesses according to Zechariah 4 and being this is a world wide event as in all nations when they come to preach during the last 3 1/2 years are that of the Jews, (like the Disciples) who are to continue their commission to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5-7 as Jews throughout the world have not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah. Paul on the other hand was called to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, as well as the Gentiles who are called at this time to preach the Gospel in all nations only to the lost Gentiles.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Revelation 11


My take is that the two witnesses according to Zechariah 4 and being this is a world wide event as in all nations when they come to preach during the last 3 1/2 years are that of the Jews, (like the Disciples) who are to continue their commission to preach the Gospel to the lost sheep of Israel, Matthew 10:5-7 as Jews throughout the world have not yet accepted Jesus as Messiah. Paul on the other hand was called to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, Acts 22:21, as well as the Gentiles who are called at this time to preach the Gospel in all nations only to the lost Gentiles.

"Last 3 1/2 years" doesn't add up. The Beast who ascends from the abyss kills them and then rules for 3.5 years:

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. (Rev. 13:5 NKJ)

As for your study, not bad. Just too wordy. You could have said the Holy Spirit is poured out on the church when these two showed up, that is what the symbolism means:

4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands standing before the God of the earth. (Rev. 11:4 NKJ)

11 Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees-- at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"
13 Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." (Zech. 4:11-14 NKJ)

The fire is fed by the oil from the two gold pipes. Baptism in fire, oil symbolizes the Holy Spirit. This is when the Joel's prophecy is fulfilled, in the end time and not Azuza Street:

16 "But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 `And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.
19 I will show wonders in heaven above And signs in the earth beneath: Blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD.
21 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved.'
(Acts 2:16-21 NKJ)


As we all know, the Day of the LORD didn't happen in the 1st century, therefore "this is what was spoken by the Prophet Joel" in prefigure of what will be in the end time, when wonders in heaven above and signs in earth beneath"... will occur as the book of Revelation reveals.

 

[for_his_glory]

I can't apologize for the wordiness as my articles I write have to be in full context of scripture. I do try to keep them as short as I can for forums.

"Last 3 1/2 years" doesn't add up. The Beast who ascends from the abyss kills them and then rules for 3.5 years:

Could it be possible that since this all takes place in the end of days that it is the two witness, as I said one being the Christian Jews and the other the Christian Gentiles, that go about preaching the Gospels message of salvation during the 3 1/2 years of the beast/son of perdition reign in Jerusalem right before the return of Christ.

Those who are Christ own during this time will be forced to denounce Christ and take the mark of this beast or be beheaded dying a martyr's death.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

3 1/2 days can also be symbolic of the death and resurrection of Christ as many will die a martyr's death with the two witness probably being the first ones to be killed, but risen again to meet the Lord in the air. Christ will return at the end of this 3 1/2 year period as He destroys the beast out of the earth.

 

[for_his_glory]

I don't agree with many things on the end time website you use, but go straight to the scriptures for my learning. Not saying I am right or wrong, but man has lead me astray many times.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I can't apologize for the wordiness as my articles I write have to be in full context of scripture. I do try to keep them as short as I can for forums.

Could it be possible that since this all takes place in the end of days that it is the two witness, as I said one being the Christian Jews and the other the Christian Gentiles, that go about preaching the Gospels message of salvation during the 3 1/2 years of the beast/son of perdition reign in Jerusalem right before the return of Christ.

Those who are Christ own during this time will be forced to denounce Christ and take the mark of this beast or be beheaded dying a martyr's death.

Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

3 1/2 days can also be symbolic of the death and resurrection of Christ as many will die a martyr's death with the two witness probably being the first ones to be killed, but risen again to meet the Lord in the air. Christ will return at the end of this 3 1/2 year period as He destroys the beast out of the earth.

It is considered best to take scripture literally, and if the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.

"Two witnesses" in context are people, not representing groups of people. The best way to illustrate that is to put "Gentile/Jewish Christians" everywhere your interpretation puts them, and see if the text still makes sense when we read it:

6 Gentile/Jewish Christians have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and Gentile/Jewish Christians have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 When Gentile/Jewish Christians finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against Gentile/Jewish Christians, overcome them, and kill Gentile/Jewish Christians.
8 And Gentile/Jewish Christians dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:6-8 NKJ)

When we read the context back, with your interpretation in it, it doesn't make sense faithful Christians will all die at that time.

Our LORD said Elijah will come; He didn't retract that when He said John the Baptist also was "Elijah" figuratively speaking:

11 And they asked Him, saying, "Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?"
12 Then He answered and told them, "Indeed, Elijah is coming first and restores all things. (Mk. 9:11-12 NKJ)

So one of the witnesses MUST be Elijah. Then by deduction, we can conclude Moses is the other Witness.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't agree with many things on the end time website you use, but go straight to the scriptures for my learning. Not saying I am right or wrong, but man has lead me astray many times.

I can't blame you, few do. Its my site by the way, not someone elses.

Bible prophecy predicts events that haven't happened yet. So of course few will believe it. Until it begins happening, why should they?

When predicted events begin to occur, then believers will realize they have been warned about the terrible things to come upon the apostates, so they separate themselves lest they also be consumed.

1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:
2 "You only have I known of all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."
3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey? Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he has caught nothing?
5 Will a bird fall into a snare on the earth, where there is no trap for it? Will a snare spring up from the earth, if it has caught nothing at all?
6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?
7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing, Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:1-7 NKJ)

Some will object God is speaking to Israel. But does God change? Will He treat apostate Christendom differently than apostate Israel?

I think not.

End Time Timeline of Events in the Last Days | End Time News

When the First Seal is opened (Rev. 6:2) the First Half of End-Time "Week" of 7 Years (= 84 months; 2,520 days) begins: A disclaimer: I am a Cessationist, a believer in the sufficiency of Scripture (sola scriptura). Not one word of this is "thus saith the Lord prophecy". I pray its correct so...

endtimenews.net

 

[for_his_glory]

"Two witnesses" in context are people, not representing groups of people. The best way to illustrate that is to put "Gentile/Jewish Christians" everywhere your interpretation puts them, and see if the text still makes sense when we read it:

6 Gentile/Jewish Christians have power to shut heaven, so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy; and Gentile/Jewish Christians have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues, as often as they desire.
7 When Gentile/Jewish Christians finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against Gentile/Jewish Christians, overcome them, and kill Gentile/Jewish Christians.
8 And Gentile/Jewish Christians dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. (Rev. 11:6-8 NKJ)

Study Exodus chapter seven in what God instructed Moses and Aaron to do. There is nothing that the two witnesses can do unless God tells them to do like shut up heaven and to turn water into blood just as God instructed Moses and Aaron.

I take scripture very literally where it is literal and also symbolic where it is symbolic. As far as Elijah being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind, he was not caught up to the third heaven but carried across the horizon where no one that knew him could find him.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. I could take this even further, but only if you want me to.

As for the two witnesses I believe it is two groups of people and always has been beginning with the disciples who were sent out to preach to the Jews first as was Paul, but Paul was called to preach to the gentiles, Romans 11:13; 15:16, Galatians 2:7-9.

​

 

[Alfred Persson]

Study Exodus chapter seven in what God instructed Moses and Aaron to do. There is nothing that the two witnesses can do unless God tells them to do like shut up heaven and to turn water into blood just as God instructed Moses and Aaron.

I take scripture very literally where it is literal and also symbolic where it is symbolic. As far as Elijah being caught up to heaven in a whirlwind, he was not caught up to the third heaven but carried across the horizon where no one that knew him could find him.

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7. I could take this even further, but only if you want me to.

As for the two witnesses I believe it is two groups of people and always has been beginning with the disciples who were sent out to preach to the Jews first as was Paul, but Paul was called to preach to the gentiles, Romans 11:13; 15:16, Galatians 2:7-9.

​

Our cosmology is radically different. God is infinite, He does not live in heaven, heaven exists in Him like a thought in His infinite Mind:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)

Before the incarnation of Christ, God manifested Himself in heaven in a theophany, the "form of God" localized Christ's presence so the angels etc. could commune with Him and therefore to God Father Son and Holy Spirit:

5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
(Phil. 2:5-6 NKJ)

Angels in heaven are just as physical as we are, they aren't spirits. Spirits live there too. Just as life is diverse on earth, so it is in the realm of heaven.

The resurrected flesh of Christ is now seated in a throne there, and Moses Elijah Enoch are there physically. Its true Elijah wrote a letter (2 Chron. 21:12) after being taken up to heaven, but that means he wrote it in heaven and it was delivered by an angel.


Moses and Elijah weren't a vision, they were seen by all at the Transfiguration and Peter wanted to build tents for them, indicating he believed they were physically there:

5 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah "-- (Mk. 9:5 NKJ)

Rather than a vision, it was the coming of the Kingdom in power, to that specific place and for a moment Heaven and earth shared the same place:

And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power." (Mk. 9:1 NKJ)

 

[for_his_glory]

Our cosmology is radically different. God is infinite, He does not live in heaven, heaven exists in Him like a thought in His infinite Mind:

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).​

Angels in heaven are just as physical as we are, they aren't spirits. Spirits live there too. Just as life is diverse on earth, so it is in the realm of heaven.

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

 

[for_his_glory]

Enoch, Moses, Abraham and Elijah were not taken up to the third Heaven as some teach as when they were seen (not Enoch or Abraham) of Peter, James and John in Matthew 17:1-9 it was only a transfiguration like a vision that they saw Jesus transfigured as was Moses and Elijah. There is no one in the third heaven except God, Jesus and the angels, John 3:13. Everyone that has ever died is asleep in their grave and when Christ returns they will hear His voice as He calls all of them to come forth. They that have done good, unto the resurrection of life, and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40 It is only our spirit/breath/soul that goes back to God who gave it, Genesis 2:7; Ecc 12:7.

Gen 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Does not say Enoch was taken up to heaven, but that he was only translated that he should not see death at that particular time being he was 365 years old. Should not see death means since Enoch walked with God he would not see the second death, Rev 20:6, but only that of the first death, Hebrews 9:27, as all his days were three hundred and sixty as he died, but no one knows where.

Genesis 49: 30 In the cave that is in the field of Machpelah, which is before Mamre, in the land of Canaan, which Abraham bought with the field of Ephron the Hittite for a possession of a burying place. 31 There they buried Abraham and Sarah his wife; there they buried Isaac and Rebekah his wife; and there I buried Leah.

Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 and he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Beth-peor: but no man knoweth of his sepulcher unto this day.

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. (Heaven here means atmosphere, first heaven)

Elijah, having ascended into the air (First heaven) by a whirlwind was carried away out of sight beyond the horizon. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him. How long after? There are some difficulties in figuring the exact chronology as it varies from 2 to 10 years or more. A note in Josephus (a Jewish historian of the first century A.D.) says 4 years, while the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA figures it at 7 years.

Regardless of the exact number of years there came writing to Jehoram from Elijah the prophet, saying..." (2Chron 21:12). Now the wickedness of Jehoram, for which he was being rebuked in the letter, took place after Elijah was taken away, yet the letter speaks of these things as past events, and the punishment to come upon him as yet future. So the idea of some, that Elijah wrote the letter before he was removed by the whirlwind, is proved wrong.

Elijah was taken up by the whirlwind into the first heaven and transported to another location on Earth. God did not see fit in His purpose to reveal his whereabouts. Chariot of fire is used at times figuratively for host (angels) like in 2 Kings 2:11, 12: 6:17; Psalms 68:17; 104:1-4. Elijah, by his prayers and his counsel was the "chariot of Israel and the horseman thereof", meaning Elijah was the stronghold of Israel, the driving force of God. The Israelite's never used chariots till the time of David.

When you compare 2 Kings 2:11-15 with 2 Kings 6:17 you see that God sent the host/angels down to Elijah who caught him up in a whirlwind and translated him to parts unknown. Several years after he was taken away King Jehoram received a letter from him.​

 

[jerry63935]

There is nowhere in scripture that teaches a seven year tribulation period, but only the seven trumpets and the seven bowl judgements.

naturally because your the only one correct DAN9:27 of course men like Ironside jay Vernon McGee David Jeremiah along with few others who hold doc degrees are all wrong. even Adrian rogers is in agreement with the men i listed.. now if you chose to go through the wrath of God being poured out be my guest .. i have no plans being here

​

 

[for_his_glory]

naturally because your the only one correct DAN9:27 of course men like Ironside jay Vernon McGee David Jeremiah along with few others who hold doc degrees are all wrong. even Adrian rogers is in agreement with the men i listed.. now if you chose to go through the wrath of God being poured out be my guest .. i have no plans being here

​

I don't care who holds doctorates or how famous someone might seem to be to others as even they give no scripture that holds to a seven year tribulation. I do not adhere to a majority rule hand me down band wagon teachings.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.”

Where does it say anything about a seven year end times tribulation period.
​

Daniel 9:27 shows us exactly when after the total of 69 weeks (483 days/483 prophetic years in the day as a year principle) Jesus was cut off, but not for Himself for He was cut off for us as He died for our sins. Note that it states that He, Jesus, caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease in the middle of the final week (7 years), which is 3.5 years of course. When Jesus, the Lamb of God, died on the cross, He became our one and final perfect sacrifice and put an end to the temple sacrifices. This was signified by the temple curtain being torn from top to bottom.
​

This still leaves 3.5 years before the end of Daniel’s 70 weeks (490 years) and the close of probation for Israel. The Gospel was still to go to the Jews exclusively for this remaining time. So what happened at the end of the 490 years? Stephen gave one immense and very significant speech before the Sanhedrin. This was God giving the Jews their final chance to repent. How did they respond and what did they do?

Acts 7:54-60 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. 60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.”

Notice that this is an extremely significant event as we see Stephen say, “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” It is also interesting to note that Stephen effectively said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” The final 3.5 years, which was the same time period of the ministry of Jesus Christ, ended with the death of Stephen and him effectively saying the same words as Jesus when He was crucified. This marked the end of a very significant time period being the end of the Daniel’s 70 weeks.


​

 

[Alfred Persson]

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).​

Angels are essentially “ministering spirits,” (Hebrews 1:14) and do not have physical bodies like humans. Jesus declared that “a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have” (Luke 24:37-39).

Yes, there are three heavens, but if you put God in one of them then He is like His creatures, finite...contained.

Scripture puts the three heavens inside God, they are contained in Him:

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

"A common term for the Deity in Rabbinic literature is 'the Place,' which originates in the doctrine: 'The Holy One, blessed be He, is the place of His Universe, but His Universe is not His place' (Gen. R. LXVIII. 9). He encompasses space but space does not encompass Him."-(A Cohen, Everyman's Talmud, p. 8).



God is not living in heaven like His creatures:

18 To whom then will you liken God? Or what likeness will you compare to Him?
...

25 "To whom then will you liken Me, Or to whom shall I be equal?" says the Holy One.
26 Lift up your eyes on high, And see who has created these things, Who brings out their host by number; He calls them all by name, By the greatness of His might And the strength of His power; Not one is missing. (Isa. 40:18-26 NKJ)

 

[jerry63935]

I don't care who holds doctorates or how famous someone might seem to be to others as even they give no scripture that holds to a seven year tribulation. I do not adhere to a majority rule hand me down band wagon teachings.

and i dont adhere to your theory

Note that it states that He, Jesus, caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease in the middle of the final week (7 years), which is 3.5 years of course. When Jesus, the Lamb of God, died on the cross, He became our one and final perfect sacrifice and put an end to the temple sacrifices. This was signified by the temple curtain being torn from top to bottom.

you posted 7 years then changed it to 3.5 the last 3.5 years will be when the intense part kicks in. i dont think any of these men are what you call famous. but well known men of God who taught for years . i come more close to adhere to what they teach. compared to yours. tribulation begins when we are called out. pre trib . your holding to historian point of view.

 

[for_his_glory]

and i dont adhere to your theory




you posted 7 years then changed it to 3.5 the last 3.5 years will be when the intense part kicks in. i dont think any of these men are what you call famous. but well known men of God who taught for years . i come more close to adhere to what they teach. compared to yours. tribulation begins when we are called out. pre trib . your holding to historian point of view.

I will ask the question to you one more time. Where in Daniel 9:27 does it speak about an end time 7 year tribulation period before Christ returns?

And again, I never ask anyone to agree with my studies, but to only study the scriptures I give for themselves and let them draw their own conclusions.

I already explained the two 3 1/2 years and need not to repeat it.