No works? No Salvation!

[bodhitharta]

Matthew 3:7-9 (King James Version)

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

Even Paul says:

Acts 26 (King James Version)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

 

[Cornelius]

Joh 6:28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
Joh 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

That is correct. Believing ON Him (not jut believing IN Him )
Believing "on Him" = being of one mind. We can only be of one mind, if we agree 100% with the Word of God.When we agree 100% with the Word of God, we will believe things like 1Jn 4:17 ..... because as he is, even so are we in this world. and 1Jn 2:6 he that saith he abideth in him ought himself also to walk even as he walked. . That obviously produces the same results (works) as Jesus. Those are the "works of God" that is a direct result of faith.

Faith without works is dead.

 

[Adullam]

Agreed!

 

[NIGHTMARE]

Matthew 3:7-9 (King James Version)

8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance

Even Paul says:

Acts 26 (King James Version)

20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their "WORKS"

13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their "WORKS"

 

[Adullam]

The modern gospel goes something like this...

Jesus heals a blind man and the blind man says...I still can't see! Jesus then says...of course not, but you are still healed!

Of course, this is ridiculous.


Now if Christ sets us free from our old lives...won't there be any indication to show this?

So the contrast goes between the powerless modern gospel and the power of the risen Christ that bears fruit.

 

[Vince]

Many fine Christians do not understand that there is no such thing as being saved without repenting. If you started out ignorant, and studied John the Baptist before you read anything else in the New Testament, you would understand that being saved MUST produce a changed life.

 

[beksta777]

oh my! You cannot believe how happy I am to finally meet people who understand this! I am so tired of these people who believe that one prayer in combination with God's Grace will cover them forever, without any form of repentance for further mistakes, or a turning-away from those things which God detests! I didn't think it was a hard thing to understand, I mean, it's all right there in the Bible!

 

[RichardBurger]

What is Works Theology?

Does this theology really exist or am I making it up?

IMHO yes it really does exist. If you ask most people in the Christian religion why they think they are going to heaven the first things out of their mouth will be about what they do, or have done. --- In other words it will be about themselves and their works. -- Very few will “â€Âfirstâ€Â†say it is because Jesus’ work on the cross paid for their sins. If they mention the cross it will have to be coerced. -- Why do they do that? IMHO it is because they feel their works are what really matters. Perhaps that is because that is what they have been taught in a “works theology.â€Â

The most discussed idea on forums is works. To believe works follow faith is find, but to constantly harp on it is to judge other Christians and to make “â€Âworks the center of Christianity.â€Â†This is a form of boasting and trying to elevate some people as being closer to God than others. It makes Christianity a class system. IMHO this is what causes the world to turn against Christianity. The world see Christianity as a works based religion just like all the other works based religions and not as a religion in which God has reconciled sinners to God.

Since true faith WILL produce good works why are so many constantly harping that a person must have good works? If they are a Christian won’t they have good works? Do they need others to kick them into doing good works? A true child of God does not do good works to be seen by men. They do not do them to prove they have faith. God knows whether they have faith or not. No one needs to prove their faith to any man.

Seems to me that if they are not Christians all the harping about doing good works will not make them a Christian. It also seems to me that all the harping about good works only frustrates a child of God who is living in a body with a sinful nature that will sin.

Where am I wrong?
****

Besides, since a true child of God is NOT doing works to be seen by men how can you tell if they are doing good works. Oh, I get it, they must do their good works so that men can see them and say how wonderful they are. --- Amazing!

Matt 6:1-4 Do Good to Please God

1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. NKJV

I don't think the above tell us to do good works so that men will see them.

Jesus told the world about God. I believe we are to tell the world about Jesus. We are to teach that God was in Jesus reconciling mankind to God. That is how we glorify God and His Son. I believe this to be our primary mission.

I don't see the children of God as being lazy. I see all of mankind living in bodies with a sinful nature needing Jesus' work on the cross. When I start thinking of myself as being better than others then I need to look in a mirror. When I think I am so good it is then that I should compare myself to Jesus and realize how sinful I am.

I think people ought to take another look at the event in the garden. Didn't Satan tell Eve that she could be "LIKE GOD?"

I don't approve of Christians going around pretending to be like Jesus when there is no way under the sun that they can be like Jesus. If you want the world to look at you and see Jesus then what you are saying to the world is that Jesus is like you and that is just plain wrong. Jesus is God and we are not like Him in the flesh.

***It was said: "Thus, you have to address both the "lazy" Christian because it seems his faith is not sincere (otherwise there would be fruit). But you also have to address the folks who think their works save them. I think that explains why people harp on works so much. The proper teaching is the one that emphasizes that fruit is born out of faith, not vice versa." ***

My reply: The proper teaching is about the cross, that placing faith, trust, confidence and hope in the FINISHED work of God (Jesus) on the cross is what God commands us to do in this age of His grace.

Harping on others is just a way of boasting and judging others. It sets the “harper†up as being less sinful than the others, who, in their judgment, isn't doing enough. As if their judgment is the same as God's. It is one servant boasting against another and trying to boss them.

Who are those that would judge God’s servants? Who gave them that right?

Rom 14:1-13
4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written:

"As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God."

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
NKJV

But it seems to me that many want to be able to judge others and yet they sit back and say "I love others." Amazing!!!

When some Christians judge other Christians as being lazy it sound very much like the son that stayed with his father when the other son went away. The son that stayed home was jealous and resented the son that returned. --- That is my observation.

We either have the uniqueness of GRACE ALONE for salvation, or we are like every other works based religion where one hopes to get to heaven by their good works, but doesn't really know. Some brothers and sisters in Christ say, "What makes Christianity different is that we do not get to heaven by works, it is by God's grace, in Christ. No works at all." Then, others will ask what sins one could commit to lose salvation, and many will name sins... this is a grievous contradiction, and it frustrates the Gospel of grace... God forbid.

Many Christians are tainted by a works based Gospel... it is our goal to meditate on His grace, and teach it at all times.

How my heart aches for people to understand His work on the cross, and accept it for the mystery that it is... by grace alone we are saved, and not by works... lest any man boast. Stop frustrating the Gospel of grace, brothers and sisters... it is not good to strive against God

 

[beksta777]

It is unbiblical to preach a works theology. However, it is also unbiblical to say that all one must do to achieve salvation is recite a sinner's prayer and go on their merry way...unfortunately too many do this and continue to live in habitual sin or bondage. Salvation is certainly assured with a faith in Jesus Christ, His redeeming Blood cleanses those who choose to follow Him, as he commanded us. One must, according to Scripture, question their salvation if they do not follow in His greatest commandment - to Love God with every part of our being, and...to Love Him is to obey his Commandments. This is what i mean by "works"...it is not about doing 'good things', but FOLLOWING our Lord. With regards to any kind of agreement, one can only truly accept it if the conditions are understood...and the gift of Salvation is no different. It's a Covenant between God and His people. To be truly saved, is to understand the gift, and to understand it, necessitates a change of heart....a turning-away from unrighteousness and sin, all the things that we lived in our old lives that were unholy before God. Unholiness cannot stand in his presence. we are to be a 'living sacrifice' before Him - to forsake ourselves and our sinful natures to become more like Him - transformed by His Grace, refined in the fire. To be a true believer, there must be a complete submission to God. Whilst there exists a rebellion towards God and His precepts in one's heart, the narrow gate will remain unavailable to him. Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection removed the legal obstacle, and allowed us to become Holy in His Sight. The greatest testimony of true Salvation is the "work" (result) it has produced within us - it's not about doing things to get to Heaven, but the necessity of an inner change within the individual towards God.

I apologise if it seemed as though I was preaching a gospel of works, it was not my intent at all...

 

[Adullam]

What is Works Theology?

Does this theology really exist or am I making it up?

IMHO yes it really does exist. If you ask most people in the Christian religion why they think they are going to heaven the first things out of their mouth will be about what they do, or have done. --- In other words it will be about themselves and their works. -- Very few will “â€Âfirstâ€Â†say it is because Jesus’ work on the cross paid for their sins. If they mention the cross it will have to be coerced. -- Why do they do that? IMHO it is because they feel their works are what really matters. Perhaps that is because that is what they have been taught in a “works theology.â€Â

The most discussed idea on forums is works. To believe works follow faith is find, but to constantly harp on it is to judge other Christians and to make “â€Âworks the center of Christianity.â€Â†This is a form of boasting and trying to elevate some people as being closer to God than others. It makes Christianity a class system. IMHO this is what causes the world to turn against Christianity. The world see Christianity as a works based religion just like all the other works based religions and not as a religion in which God has reconciled sinners to God.

Since true faith WILL produce good works why are so many constantly harping that a person must have good works? If they are a Christian won’t they have good works? Do they need others to kick them into doing good works? A true child of God does not do good works to be seen by men. They do not do them to prove they have faith. God knows whether they have faith or not. No one needs to prove their faith to any man.

Seems to me that if they are not Christians all the harping about doing good works will not make them a Christian. It also seems to me that all the harping about good works only frustrates a child of God who is living in a body with a sinful nature that will sin.

Where am I wrong?
****

Besides, since a true child of God is NOT doing works to be seen by men how can you tell if they are doing good works. Oh, I get it, they must do their good works so that men can see them and say how wonderful they are. --- Amazing!

Matt 6:1-4 Do Good to Please God

1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
3 But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing,
4 that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly. NKJV

I don't think the above tell us to do good works so that men will see them.

Jesus told the world about God. I believe we are to tell the world about Jesus. We are to teach that God was in Jesus reconciling mankind to God. That is how we glorify God and His Son. I believe this to be our primary mission.

I don't see the children of God as being lazy. I see all of mankind living in bodies with a sinful nature needing Jesus' work on the cross. When I start thinking of myself as being better than others then I need to look in a mirror. When I think I am so good it is then that I should compare myself to Jesus and realize how sinful I am.

I think people ought to take another look at the event in the garden. Didn't Satan tell Eve that she could be "LIKE GOD?"

I don't approve of Christians going around pretending to be like Jesus when there is no way under the sun that they can be like Jesus. If you want the world to look at you and see Jesus then what you are saying to the world is that Jesus is like you and that is just plain wrong. Jesus is God and we are not like Him in the flesh.

***It was said: "Thus, you have to address both the "lazy" Christian because it seems his faith is not sincere (otherwise there would be fruit). But you also have to address the folks who think their works save them. I think that explains why people harp on works so much. The proper teaching is the one that emphasizes that fruit is born out of faith, not vice versa." ***

My reply: The proper teaching is about the cross, that placing faith, trust, confidence and hope in the FINISHED work of God (Jesus) on the cross is what God commands us to do in this age of His grace.

Harping on others is just a way of boasting and judging others. It sets the “harper†up as being less sinful than the others, who, in their judgment, isn't doing enough. As if their judgment is the same as God's. It is one servant boasting against another and trying to boss them.

Who are those that would judge God’s servants? Who gave them that right?

Rom 14:1-13
4 Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things.
2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him.
4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11 For it is written:

"As I live, says the Lord,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God."

12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother's way.
NKJV

But it seems to me that many want to be able to judge others and yet they sit back and say "I love others." Amazing!!!

When some Christians judge other Christians as being lazy it sound very much like the son that stayed with his father when the other son went away. The son that stayed home was jealous and resented the son that returned. --- That is my observation.

We either have the uniqueness of GRACE ALONE for salvation, or we are like every other works based religion where one hopes to get to heaven by their good works, but doesn't really know. Some brothers and sisters in Christ say, "What makes Christianity different is that we do not get to heaven by works, it is by God's grace, in Christ. No works at all." Then, others will ask what sins one could commit to lose salvation, and many will name sins... this is a grievous contradiction, and it frustrates the Gospel of grace... God forbid.

Many Christians are tainted by a works based Gospel... it is our goal to meditate on His grace, and teach it at all times.

How my heart aches for people to understand His work on the cross, and accept it for the mystery that it is... by grace alone we are saved, and not by works... lest any man boast. Stop frustrating the Gospel of grace, brothers and sisters... it is not good to strive against God

You are simply being tripped up by your synapses misfiring when the word "works" is mentioned. ;)

Works of the law are not the same as works of faith. You can't argue for the no works zone...that is the province of those who are dead. Works will take place be they dead or living.

It's like the joke that says concerning a leaking tanker .....when asked if it was polluting the environment ...the response was no it was safe since it was towed OUTSIDE the environment.

We are being saved from dead works to living works of truth prepared in advance. This is the purpose of our creation.

"For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (Eph 2:10) ..."

"Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house." MAt 5:15

We are saved to do good works...and our good works, if we remain constant till the end, ensure our salvation. A black hole of grace is useless. LIke the servant who buried his talent (his light) was also rejected.

We will only inherit the promises if we endure to the end. It is like waiting for a bus for 4 hours then leaving only to have the bus arrive a few minutes later, and we, having missed it due to a lack of endurance.

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

10For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

11And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

 

[bodhitharta]

It is unbiblical to preach a works theology. However, it is also unbiblical to say that all one must do to achieve salvation is recite a sinner's prayer and go on their merry way...unfortunately too many do this and continue to live in habitual sin or bondage. Salvation is certainly assured with a faith in Jesus Christ, His redeeming Blood cleanses those who choose to follow Him, as he commanded us. One must, according to Scripture, question their salvation if they do not follow in His greatest commandment - to Love God with every part of our being, and...to Love Him is to obey his Commandments. This is what i mean by "works"...it is not about doing 'good things', but FOLLOWING our Lord. With regards to any kind of agreement, one can only truly accept it if the conditions are understood...and the gift of Salvation is no different. It's a Covenant between God and His people. To be truly saved, is to understand the gift, and to understand it, necessitates a change of heart....a turning-away from unrighteousness and sin, all the things that we lived in our old lives that were unholy before God. Unholiness cannot stand in his presence. we are to be a 'living sacrifice' before Him - to forsake ourselves and our sinful natures to become more like Him - transformed by His Grace, refined in the fire. To be a true believer, there must be a complete submission to God. Whilst there exists a rebellion towards God and His precepts in one's heart, the narrow gate will remain unavailable to him. Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection removed the legal obstacle, and allowed us to become Holy in His Sight. The greatest testimony of true Salvation is the "work" (result) it has produced within us - it's not about doing things to get to Heaven, but the necessity of an inner change within the individual towards God.

I apologise if it seemed as though I was preaching a gospel of works, it was not my intent at all...

People can call it whatever they want but if you willo be judged according to your works as Jesus said than you will be judged according to your works.

Jesus said he's not going to judge you and he said that the Father isn't going to judge you and yet he still says you will be judged according to your works.

Jesus then tells you also that you can do miracles in "his" name, Heal the sick in "his" name and do all sorts of wonderful works in "his' name and guess what these"works" won't matter because the only works that matter is doing the will of the Father and feeding who you can feed and clothe who you can clothe and visit the sick when you can and things that SHOW God that you believe because if you don't ACT you do not believe.

People do not understand what grace is but when you go to work at a job they will usually allow a 5 - 10 minute grace period before you are considered late that penalty free space is where the grace come into play it is filling the short coming, not eliminating the Work that must still be done.

 

[RichardBurger]

It was said: "You are simply being tripped up by your synapses misfiring when the word "works" is mentioned."

Thank you for your kind words. I suppose your ego requires you to mock others. These kinds of words are written by the religious that thinks there ideas are the greatest and therefore they can disparage what someone else writes. Then they sit back and say I have works because I LOVE others.

It was said: "Works of the law are not the same as works of faith. You can't argue for the no works zone...that is the province of those who are dead. Works will take place be they dead or living."

I don't believe you. I believe Paul.

Rom 4:5-8

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

No where in the above do I see that the ungodly must become godly in the flesh. It is a fact that sinful flesh cannot and never will be able to be sinless.

You don’t seem to know that God knows His own Children in Christ, that He can see into their hearts. You seem to think that a child of God has to prove his/her faith to God, that He really doesn’t know unless a person shows Him. --- I don’t believe that.

 

[Adullam]

It was said: "You are simply being tripped up by your synapses misfiring when the word "works" is mentioned."

Thank you for your kind words. I suppose your ego requires you to mock others. These kinds of words are written by the religious that thinks there ideas are the greatest and therefore they can disparage what someone else writes. Then they sit back and say I have works because I LOVE others.

It was said: "Works of the law are not the same as works of faith. You can't argue for the no works zone...that is the province of those who are dead. Works will take place be they dead or living."

I don't believe you. I believe Paul.

Rom 4:5-8

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

No where in the above do I see that the ungodly must become godly in the flesh. It is a fact that sinful flesh cannot and never will be able to be sinless.

You don’t seem to know that God knows His own Children in Christ, that He can see into their hearts. You seem to think that a child of God has to prove his/her faith to God, that He really doesn’t know unless a person shows Him. --- I don’t believe that.

That is the problem...God sees into our hearts. We are not better than our works.....they reveal who we are. If we remove works then we are left with mere opinion. A person who in their own minds can lift an elephant may have trouble picking up even a hundred pounds. We know people by their works/fruit. God has no secret favourites....so He judges by our works as well. That is a biblical position.

"For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil."

6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. Rom 2:16

 

[Vince]

Richard, you're making a valid point: we are not saved by works, nor are works essential to our salvation. Let me re-explain what we're trying to say:

A person can only be saved by totally accepting Christ by faith. If that person intends to keep on living his or her own way, that person did not completely accept Christ. If the person really does accept Christ, God will work in that person, and the person will have a changed life, including good works. A person without the good works does not have a changed life, because God is not a part of that person's life, because the person did not really accept Christ as Savior.

 

[Adullam]

Richard, you're making a valid point: we are not saved by works, nor are works essential to our salvation. Let me re-explain what we're trying to say:

A person can only be saved by totally accepting Christ by faith. If that person intends to keep on living his or her own way, that person did not completely accept Christ. If the person really does accept Christ, God will work in that person, and the person will have a changed life, including good works. A person without the good works does not have a changed life, because God is not a part of that person's life, because the person did not really accept Christ as Savior.

LOL you're arguing works! This is what the debate is about. Whether we will be judged by a faith decision or by our deeds. The many verses about perseverence and fruit/deeds are not even explained away..they are simply ignored in order to hold onto a pre-conceived idea about their own salvation promised by some tract or booklet. We cannot get to the bottom of the truth if the bible is ignored at every turn.


Did we offer Jesus on the cross for our own sins???? Was He our sacrifice? ....or God's? So God will judge.


Trying to make an opinion fit the word is a very painful event to behold.

BTW, men can't accept Christ as saviour. God did. He accepted Christ's sacrifice for sin. We had no say in it then...or now! We do not ratify our own qualification for salvation. That is foolishness. It is God who justifies. We cannot go on justifying ourselves through our own belief that we are saved.

 

[Vince]

Okay, let me try again. We often quote Ephesians 2:8-9 to lost people, but the passage is actually written to Christians. The Ephesian Christians were confused about good works; they could tell by looking around then that they were acting better than others. Paul explained to them:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul explained that their salvation was a gift, not something they had earned. It was by faith, not their good works. None of them had the right to brag about being saved.

AFTER they got saved, Jesus made them a new creation, designed to walk in good works. If they did not walk in these good works, it was because Jesus had not made them into a new creation because they had never been saved. Good works are the inevitable RESULT of being born again. They are not the cause, and they have nothing at all to do with the new birth occurring.

 

[Adullam]

Okay, let me try again. We often quote Ephesians 2:8-9 to lost people, but the passage is actually written to Christians. The Ephesian Christians were confused about good works; they could tell by looking around then that they were acting better than others. Paul explained to them:

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul explained that their salvation was a gift, not something they had earned. It was by faith, not their good works. None of them had the right to brag about being saved.

AFTER they got saved, Jesus made them a new creation, designed to walk in good works. If they did not walk in these good works, it was because Jesus had not made them into a new creation because they had never been saved. Good works are the inevitable RESULT of being born again. They are not the cause, and they have nothing at all to do with the new birth occurring.

Good works are not just a result of being born again...but a requirement of those who have tasted of the heavenly gift. To whom much is given... more is required. Are you familiar with the parable of the talents? What happened to the one who neglected to bear fruit?

 

[bodhitharta]

Richard, you're making a valid point: we are not saved by works, nor are works essential to our salvation. Let me re-explain what we're trying to say:

A person can only be saved by totally accepting Christ by faith. If that person intends to keep on living his or her own way, that person did not completely accept Christ. If the person really does accept Christ, God will work in that person, and the person will have a changed life, including good works. A person without the good works does not have a changed life, because God is not a part of that person's life, because the person did not really accept Christ as Savior.

That's not what Richard said nor is it what Paul said because Paul said:

Romans 7:24-25 (King James Version)

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul does not preach the same thing that Jesus preaches and yet he does admonish the people to refrain from sin but the fact is he accepts following the law of sin in the flesh. This is why he says he agrees with Paul but unless Paul is his lord he should pay better attention to what Christ wants and commands for Paul preached for the sake of recruiting the gentiles at all cost considering allowances as milk but he even admits that eventually they must be fed meat.

Jesus was speaking to a more evolved audience who knew the Law and understood MONOTHEISM but the gentiles did not know what they worship as they were very polytheistic. Grace is not an excuse to sin, if it were the Law would not have been a tutor, for what tutor leads one away from what is being taught?

Therefore the Law of Grace is enacted through the Faith of intention to do what is good. If you Must do what Jesus commands that cannot be done without works but if you do not have to do anything Jesus commanded of you then that would also include not believeing at all and still receiving salvation.

 

[Hawkins]

Law will not change as God's Law will be used for the final judgment.

Everyone's works and words will be judged in court if he failed to accept the New Covenant.

With the New Covenant in place, Christians cannot be acussed in court of anything. That is, Satan cannot legally accuss any Christian of anything. Only the dead will be judged by Law in court.

Now what qualifies a Christian then? God judges hearts to know who is who. Not those saying "Oh Lord, Oh Lord" are all qualified Christians, only those who seek to live a holy life, those with the image of Christ are qualified Christians. You must be holy in order to see our Lord. And your holiness reflects your willingness to obey God's Law and Commandments.

Now when God judges hearts to know who is who, how humans roughly know who is who? By people's works. If you are a qualified Christian, you are going to live a life as your own testimony for being a qualified Christian, not just the "Oh Lord, Oh Lord" in your mouth.

Without work one can hardly make progress in faith, because you are going to lose reference for such a progress. Only through work one can tell if your faith is making the correct progress. Only with work that you know that your faith makes a difference from that of the devil.

At last but not the least, what Paul says are from our Lord. So they preach pretty much the same thing.

 

[Vince]

My friend bodhitharta makes a valid point. Since Paul could not get total victory over sin in this life, how could the new birth have produced good works?

Paul had explained that "in my flesh there dwells no good thing." The flesh is evil and cannot be made good, although it can be controlled. After receiving Christ, we still have our flesh, and it is still evil. But now we also have the indwelling Holy Spirit, Christ abiding in us, a new heart, and other benefits of salvation.

The born-again Christian does not become sinlessly perfect, but the changes brought by salvation MUST produce good works.