Not Forgiven, but BORN AGAIN

[atpollard]

There has been too much time wasted on peripheral issues like ...

1. Do people choose God before God chooses them, or does God choose people before they choose Him?
2. Who did Jesus die for, His sheep or all sheep and goats?
3. Can we refuse the will of God?
4. Can we loose our salvation?

... that lead in circles to the same verses and the same biblical and logical impasses.

So let us seek to answer instead, what exactly it means to be “saved”. Does saved mean that our sins are forgiven (as is often preached from the pulpit), or does “saved” mean we have undergone a far more fundamental transformation.


[John 3:3-21 NIV]

3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."​

​

4 "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."​

​

9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."​

​

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.​

“BORN again” is not a small change. Nicodemus had memorized the entire Old Testament scripture by the age of 12 and was a student of Gamaliel (as was Saul of Tarsus). So when Nicodemus questions Jesus it is not because he is ignorant, rather it is because what Jesus has spoken is deeply profound. Jesus did not call for a repentance to again set the old man on the path to the kingdom of God. Jesus called for a complete “reincarnation” ... A second birth. The old man can never see the kingdom of God. Man must be born all over again, as God created Adam, to see the kingdom of God. So Nicodemus asked a very good question ... HOW CAN WE BE BORN A SECOND TIME?

The wages of sin is death and we have all sinned.
Death is not a punishment for our sin, because a punishment is given. Death is not “given” to us, rather we have worked hard to EARN it. It is our payment for services rendered. God owes us our wages ... death.

So it is that all men die, their wages paid for their efforts.

That is why we require a second birth to see the kingdom of God. What part does one have in their first birth? Whose choice is our first birth? Who can choose to accept or decline their first birth?

Why do we imagine our second birth suddenly becomes all about the power and will and choices of the baby being born? If it was all about our choice, why would Jesus use such a poor analogy as “birth”?

On the other hand, what if “born again” is about the death of the old man of flesh and the birth of a completely new man of spirit? Shedding the old and putting on the new. Then the analogy makes sense. We were once dead men walking in our sin. God paid our wages to us and we died (spiritually to the old man and literally in the flesh at some future appointed date). IN CHRIST (a critical expression) we have been born a new spiritual man in the kingdom of God (now) and will receive a new glorified body at some future appointed date.

Every man dies as receipt of the wages he earned for his own sin, making it a just death. Jesus alone died an unjust death because He alone had no sin and was owed no debt. Therefore, God righted that unjust death by raising from death the Christ who unjustly died. By His power, Jesus Christ raises from the dead all who are IN HIM ... In Christ.

The cross is not about Jesus paying for our sins, like we owed something to God, rather it is about Jesus defeating DEATH itself and leading those of us in Christ into a spiritual rebirth into a new life.

 

[JLB]

Why do we imagine our second birth suddenly becomes all about the power and will and choices of the baby being born? If it was all about our choice, why would Jesus use such a poor analogy as “birth”?

Because we are a spirit, and we have a soul.

Our spirit is born again, not our soul, so we still have a mind, that needs to be renewed, and a will, and emotions.


IOW, we don’t lose our freewill, once we are born again.







JLB

 

[atpollard]

IOW, we don’t lose our freewill, once we are born again.

JLB

So once again EVERY conversation with a Calvinist immediately goes to proving Arminian Free Will and disproving Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints. [sigh]

If that is really all you want to talk about with a Calvinist, then so be it. One topic coming right up.

 

[GodsGrace]

So once again EVERY conversation with a Calvinist immediately goes to proving Arminian Free Will and disproving Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints. [sigh]

If that is really all you want to talk about with a Calvinist, then so be it. One topic coming right up.

LOL
Because A...You brought up about babies and choices.

But maybe we should be discussing free will since if it exists it would break down all of TULIP...which came after Calvin,,,but he was very influential so we call it Calvinism. I like to use the word reformed, but any word will do.

 

[JLB]

The cross is not about Jesus paying for our sins,

The cross is exactly, Jesus paying the price in our place, for our sins.

He purchased us from death, eternal death, by His blood.

In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace. Ephesians 1:7

Death is not a punishment for our sin,

Death certainly is the punishment for sin. Eternal death.


The wages of sin is death.

So once again EVERY conversation with a Calvinist immediately goes to proving Arminian Free Will and disproving Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace and Perseverance of the Saints. [sigh]

If that is really all you want to talk about with a Calvinist, then so be it. One topic coming right up.

I’m not Arminian, and really don’t know what he taught.

I don’t know a lot about what Calvin taught either.

I thought man was given the ability to choose by God.

Don’t each of us have the ability to choose to do good or evil?

Help me to understand where you are coming from ?


Provide some scriptures that use the word Total Depravity so I can see what you are referring to, and what this term means to you in context with scripture.



Thanks JLB

 

[atpollard]

“Penal substitution” teaches that we have a ”sin debt” to God and the only way for God to forgive our sin is for someone sinless to pay our debt. Jesus paid that debt by dying in our place FOR OUR SINS. That has been the emphasis in the western church since the Middle Ages (for both Reformed and Free Will thinkers).

The earliest Church fathers and christian writings (pre-middle ages) did not speak of our relationship to Christ in terms of a legal debt owed and paid. They spoke of an old life that was dead and a rebirth into a completely new life as a mew person. The old “me” died with Christ at the cross and the new me was raised IN CHRIST through our union (baptism by water and the Spirit). The emphasis was not on our links to Christ’s death, but on our union to Christ’s resurrection.

That is what I was attempting to discuss (something bigger than “free will”).

 

[GodsGrace]

There has been too much time wasted on peripheral issues like ...

1. Do people choose God before God chooses them, or does God choose people before they choose Him?
2. Who did Jesus die for, His sheep or all sheep and goats?
3. Can we refuse the will of God?
4. Can we loose our salvation?

... that lead in circles to the same verses and the same biblical and logical impasses.

A,,,,I enjoy speaking with you and hope we can have a conversation conducive to understanding better. It's pretty amazing to me how we could have such diverging beliefs and still read the same bible.

I don't think these are peripheral issues. Here's why:

1. It's important for unsaved persons to know that they have a part in choosing God...otherwise they may not take any action at all in getting to know Him.

I believe there are two methods of coming to Christianity..
A. By a personal experience whereby someone feels they have encountered God.
B. By noticing the world around them and coming to the logical conclusion that something must have created everything....the watchmaker. IOW,,,by pure will.

If you're right,,,then B cannot possibly happen and a person will be lost forever even if he desires to be saved.

So let us seek to answer instead, what exactly it means to be “saved”. Does saved mean that our sins are forgiven (as is often preached from the pulpit), or does “saved” mean we have undergone a far more fundamental transformation.


[John 3:3-21 NIV]

3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."​

​

4 "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."​

​

9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."​

​

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.​

“BORN again” is not a small change. Nicodemus had memorized the entire Old Testament scripture by the age of 12 and was a student of Gamaliel (as was Saul of Tarsus). So when Nicodemus questions Jesus it is not because he is ignorant, rather it is because what Jesus has spoken is deeply profound. Jesus did not call for a repentance to again set the old man on the path to the kingdom of God. Jesus called for a complete “reincarnation” ... A second birth. The old man can never see the kingdom of God. Man must be born all over again, as God created Adam, to see the kingdom of God. So Nicodemus asked a very good question ... HOW CAN WE BE BORN A SECOND TIME?

Excellent. Well said.
Jesus did come to change the world and to bring the Kingdom of God here on earth. Being born again means getting in tune with God, the creator of the universe, it means knowing He is present and wanting to commune with Him and live for Him.

Great question Nicodemus had.
One time we're born of the flesh.....
The second time we're born of the spirit.
The spirit is in tune with God's spirit.
John 3:6
6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Romans 3:16
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,

The wages of sin is death and we have all sinned.
Death is not a punishment for our sin, because a punishment is given. Death is not “given” to us, rather we have worked hard to EARN it. It is our payment for services rendered. God owes us our wages ... death.

So it is that all men die, their wages paid for their efforts.

Yes,,,I agree. We have ourselves caused our own death.
But we speak here of a spiritual death.
When Adam sinned, he did not die a physical death,,,he died a spiritual death. His relationship with God was severed...eventually he also died a physical death, which had not been in the plan, but was a cause of the fall.

When we are born, we are spiritually dead. This is the death Paul is speaking of.
Ephesians 2:1
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

We are all spiritually dead...
Are we so dead that we don't know about God?
Are we so dead that we cannot respond to God on our own?

Ephesians 1:13 states that we have trusted in Jesus AFTER we heard the word of truth. THE GOSPEL OF OUR SALVATION.
It is the hearing of the gospel,,,the hearing about God that can bring about our salvation if we believe in Jesus and the good news of salvation through Him.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

That is why we require a second birth to see the kingdom of God. What part does one have in their first birth? Whose choice is our first birth? Who can choose to accept or decline their first birth?

This is a common argument. I've n ever understood what our first birth has to do with our second birth. A baby that does not exist yet cannot have any will to be born...after the baby is born he does have a will, and I believe it is free.

Why do we imagine our second birth suddenly becomes all about the power and will and choices of the baby being born? If it was all about our choice, why would Jesus use such a poor analogy as “birth”?

As you said...we are born of the flesh AND of the spirit.
Jesus said we are born ON THIS EARTH in flesh...
and must also be born OF ABOVE in spirit.

Why speak to Nicodemus at all if God is in charge of who will be saved??

On the other hand, what if “born again” is about the death of the old man of flesh and the birth of a completely new man of spirit? Shedding the old and putting on the new. Then the analogy makes sense. We were once dead men walking in our sin. God paid our wages to us and we died (spiritually to the old man and literally in the flesh at some future appointed date). IN CHRIST (a critical expression) we have been born a new spiritual man in the kingdom of God (now) and will receive a new glorified body at some future appointed date.

Perfectly agreed.
I agree about the old man...but remember that even in the O.T. persons were born in spirit by faith. By hearing God and listening (obeying) Him.

Every man dies as receipt of the wages he earned for his own sin, making it a just death. Jesus alone died an unjust death because He alone had no sin and was owed no debt. Therefore, God righted that unjust death by raising from death the Christ who unjustly died. By His power, Jesus Christ raises from the dead all who are IN HIM ... In Christ.

The cross is not about Jesus paying for our sins, like we owed something to God, rather it is about Jesus defeating DEATH itself and leading those of us in Christ into a spiritual rebirth into a new life.

You're getting into atonement theories.
The above sounds like the Moral influence Theory....
I agree. Every theory has some truth to it. This one states that if we believe in Christ, we will follow His example as good disciples.
This IS a spiritual rebirth.

 

[PeterJens]

The cross is not about Jesus paying for our sins, like we owed something to God, rather it is about Jesus defeating DEATH itself and leading those of us in Christ into a spiritual rebirth into a new life.

This raises a different question for me.
Theology is the study of the logic behind faith, the blocks of action and belief that lead to a status of some sort. If faith leads to nothing, it is more a work of art than something that requires action.

Jesus used the words of laying down His life for His friends was the greatest action He could ever do as an expression of love.

In a real way, when someone hurts you, upsets you and you want revenge, it is often out of proportion to the action itself. You can imagine if you are the person doing the upsetting you might not want to go near the individual you have upset.

We upset God by our behaviour, and we know it. Good idea to stay away, and hope one can throw a few things of appeasement. Now what if God wanted to show us, He literally would forgive us, but on His terms. How could He show us His intent, not on a superficial I am just kidding, but undeniable, forceful statement of commitment and reconciliation, that would be eternal, and complete.

He would take the worst we could throw at Him, when He chose to become like us, our friend, the most vulnerable and intimate possible, and we still would reject and throw out all He said and actually kill Him because of who He is. And at the end of all this, He says "Forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing"

How does this make you feel about God? How does this make you feel about His intent and openness and possibility of doing the impossible?

Now the whole reason for all of this, was to establish the trust, so we could start the walk, start to learn, start to be transformed and to dwell in Him. But its end is only at the end, when all is done and the path followed. It is all about the life, the relationship, not a starting transaction, and its all set, but the dynamic of life and love.

Why the apostles went to their deaths praising and worshipping Him, is because He was their friends and they accepted their sinful state and repented and lived in that debt and union with Him in the Spirit. But testimony to their faith was their continued and continual walk to their deaths. It was not a lifestyle or religion with tests, it was their lifes breadth, their daily bread, their morning, lunch, and evening dwelling. God bless you

 

[Butch5]

There has been too much time wasted on peripheral issues like ...

1. Do people choose God before God chooses them, or does God choose people before they choose Him?
2. Who did Jesus die for, His sheep or all sheep and goats?
3. Can we refuse the will of God?
4. Can we loose our salvation?

... that lead in circles to the same verses and the same biblical and logical impasses.

So let us seek to answer instead, what exactly it means to be “saved”. Does saved mean that our sins are forgiven (as is often preached from the pulpit), or does “saved” mean we have undergone a far more fundamental transformation.


[John 3:3-21 NIV]

3 Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again."​

​

4 "How can someone be born when they are old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."​

​

9 "How can this be?" Nicodemus asked. 10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him."​

​

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.​

“BORN again” is not a small change. Nicodemus had memorized the entire Old Testament scripture by the age of 12 and was a student of Gamaliel (as was Saul of Tarsus). So when Nicodemus questions Jesus it is not because he is ignorant, rather it is because what Jesus has spoken is deeply profound. Jesus did not call for a repentance to again set the old man on the path to the kingdom of God. Jesus called for a complete “reincarnation” ... A second birth. The old man can never see the kingdom of God. Man must be born all over again, as God created Adam, to see the kingdom of God. So Nicodemus asked a very good question ... HOW CAN WE BE BORN A SECOND TIME?

The wages of sin is death and we have all sinned.
Death is not a punishment for our sin, because a punishment is given. Death is not “given” to us, rather we have worked hard to EARN it. It is our payment for services rendered. God owes us our wages ... death.

So it is that all men die, their wages paid for their efforts.

That is why we require a second birth to see the kingdom of God. What part does one have in their first birth? Whose choice is our first birth? Who can choose to accept or decline their first birth?

Why do we imagine our second birth suddenly becomes all about the power and will and choices of the baby being born? If it was all about our choice, why would Jesus use such a poor analogy as “birth”?

On the other hand, what if “born again” is about the death of the old man of flesh and the birth of a completely new man of spirit? Shedding the old and putting on the new. Then the analogy makes sense. We were once dead men walking in our sin. God paid our wages to us and we died (spiritually to the old man and literally in the flesh at some future appointed date). IN CHRIST (a critical expression) we have been born a new spiritual man in the kingdom of God (now) and will receive a new glorified body at some future appointed date.

Every man dies as receipt of the wages he earned for his own sin, making it a just death. Jesus alone died an unjust death because He alone had no sin and was owed no debt. Therefore, God righted that unjust death by raising from death the Christ who unjustly died. By His power, Jesus Christ raises from the dead all who are IN HIM ... In Christ.

The cross is not about Jesus paying for our sins, like we owed something to God, rather it is about Jesus defeating DEATH itself and leading those of us in Christ into a spiritual rebirth into a new life.

I agree that there is not sin debt. However, I don't believe that man, is, was, or ever will be a spirit so I'll have to disagree with your analysis of the passage.

 

[atpollard]

I agree that there is not sin debt. However, I don't believe that man, is, was, or ever will be a spirit so I'll have to disagree with your analysis of the passage.

That is unquestionably your right, but what do you do with verses like flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit ... so is it with everyone born of the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

That is unquestionably your right, but what do you do with verses like flesh gives birth to flesh and spirit gives birth to spirit ... so is it with everyone born of the Spirit.

I would submit that being born of the Spirit is a metaphor for the Resurrection. Paul said,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

 

[JLB]

The old “me” died with Christ at the cross and the new me was raised IN CHRIST through our union (baptism by water and the Spirit).

Could you share the scripture you are referring to about being baptized by water and Spirit?



JLB

 

[JLB]

I would submit that being born of the Spirit is a metaphor for the Resurrection. Paul said,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

I believe our spirit is literally born of the Spirit, or born of God.

Being born again, is a second spiritual birth and is literal, just as our first birth from our mother’s womb is literal; born of water.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

These are two literal statements made in this verse.

I don’t believe Jesus would make a literal statement and a metaphorical statement in the same sentence.

That would be highly confusing.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I would submit that being born of the Spirit is a metaphor for the Resurrection. Paul said,

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.1 (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

Hi Butch5

How do you understand
John 3:3, 5
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“

What do you understand the Kingdom of God to be?

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5

How do you understand
John 3:3, 5
3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“

What do you understand the Kingdom of God to be?

Hi Wondering,

I understand that Being born again is a metaphor for the resurrection. I see the kingdom of God as a literal kingdom that will exist when Christ returns. Some will say that the kingdom exists now, and in a sense I agree. However, I would submit that we will see the fullness of the kingdom when Christ returns.

In Gen. 2:7 Moses records how God created man. He said that God created the man from the dust of the earth. That tells us that man consists of the elements of the earth. God also said to Adam after he ate from the Tree of Knowledge, that he was dust and to dust he would return. God didn't say that Adam was a spirit, He said he was dust. In Gen 2:7 we see the body, the spirit, and the soul. The body is man, the spirit or breath is of God, and those two combine to create the soul. So we see all three things that are associated with man. Man is a body. When that man or body is infused with the breath or spirit of God it becomes a living soul. But again, man is not called a spirit, he is dust.

 

[Butch5]

I believe our spirit is literally born of the Spirit, or born of God.

Being born again, is a second spiritual birth and is literal, just as our first birth from our mother’s womb is literal; born of water.

Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:5-6

• That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

These are two literal statements made in this verse.

I don’t believe Jesus would make a literal statement and a metaphorical statement in the same sentence.

That would be highly confusing.


JLB

There's nothing in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. We see from Gen 2:7 that the spirit that is in man is that of God, not man. So, when the Scriptures refer to the spirit in man, I would submit that it is a reference to God's spirit in man.

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again? Nicodemus was a Jew and the seed of Abraham. God had made certain promises to Abraham and his seed. The Jews believed that they were that seed. As the seed of Abraham Nicodemus believed that he was heir to those promises too. However, Jesus is correcting his wrong thinking. He tells Nicodemus that simply being the physical seed of Abraham was not sufficient to gain him access to the Kingdom. The physical Jews were not automatically heirs of those promises. Paul tells us that when God made those promises to Abraham and his seed, He didn't mean all of the physical seed of Abraham, He meant one seed in particular, that seed was Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, if being the physical seed of Abraham doesn't get one access to the kingdom, how does one enter the kingdom? He must be born again. He must be born of water and the Spirit. According to the Granville Sharp rule, being born again consists of two elements, being born of water and the spirit. According to this rule being born of water cannot refer to one's physical birth. It says that being born again consists of two elements, water and spirit.

 

[PeterJens]

There's nothing in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. We see from Gen 2:7 that the spirit that is in man is that of God, not man. So, when the Scriptures refer to the spirit in man, I would submit that it is a reference to God's spirit in man.

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again? Nicodemus was a Jew and the seed of Abraham. God had made certain promises to Abraham and his seed. The Jews believed that they were that seed. As the seed of Abraham Nicodemus believed that he was heir to those promises too. However, Jesus is correcting his wrong thinking. He tells Nicodemus that simply being the physical seed of Abraham was not sufficient to gain him access to the Kingdom. The physical Jews were not automatically heirs of those promises. Paul tells us that when God made those promises to Abraham and his seed, He didn't mean all of the physical seed of Abraham, He meant one seed in particular, that seed was Christ.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. (Gal. 3:16 KJV)

So, if being the physical seed of Abraham doesn't get one access to the kingdom, how does one enter the kingdom? He must be born again. He must be born of water and the Spirit. According to the Granville Sharp rule, being born again consists of two elements, being born of water and the spirit. According to this rule being born of water cannot refer to one's physical birth. It says that being born again consists of two elements, water and spirit.

Jesus talks of us being born of the Spirit. This language represents the whole of us that becomes eternal in Christ.

Maybe we think ourselves in the wrong way. Our identity is expressed through our bodies, our brains, our presence. This identity can be given a spiritual life, a life with God.

We want to separate ourselves into parts, rather than saying how the whole expresses itself is focused is our soul expressed in our spirits and our heart.

4 When their spirit departs, they return to the ground
Psalm 146:4

the oil of gladness instead of mourning, and a garment of praise instead of a spirit of despair.
Isaiah 61:3

9 Now Joshua son of Nun was filled with the spirit of wisdom
Deut 34:9

8 But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that gives him understanding.
Job 32:8

22 A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
Prov 17:22

2 The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD
3 and he will delight in the fear of the LORD.
Isaiah 11:2-3

17 in the spirit and power of Elijah
Luke 1:17

Spirit is used in different ways in scripture. It conveys an emotional force, something that drives someone on, that has attributes connected with it. The Spirit is also the Holy Spirit, that brings anointing, teaching and gifting but is an individual, one of the trinity.

Our spirit then is most likely a way of expressing our dominant expression in life or in a situation. Our spirit is also the breadth of life, the thing that gives us existence.

Our souls are seen as our identity, the total summation of who we are and how we express ourselves. What we are as our expression in reality, can be lifted out of the physical and put in other forms. Our bodies are one expression of our souls. So in revelation the souls could be under the altar. A soul needs an expression, a body to express itself through. The spirit in which the soul expresses itself will vary, depending on how we react to things around us.

Samuels soul was called back from its sleep, by Saul.

35 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
36 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
John 19:35-36

6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
1 John 5:6-8

I think John felt it was significant that water and blood flowed from Jesus when He was pierced by the spear. This is probably seen as a pointer to the water of baptism for the forgiveness of sins, linking it with Jesus's blood that washes us whiter than snow, also for the forgiveness of sins. The Spirit anoints the believer sealing them as a promise of future resurrection and a new body when we raise in Christ.

Certainly one cannot be filled with the Spirit unless cleansing has taken place through faith and repentance. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit in our hearts as the Holy temple, is only possible because of the cross and new birth in the Lord.

 

[JLB]

There's nothing in Scripture that teaches that man is a spirit. We see from Gen 2:7 that the spirit that is in man is that of God, not man. So, when the Scriptures refer to the spirit in man, I would submit that it is a reference to God's spirit in man.

God created all things. So the spirit that is in man is God’s spirit that he created and formed in man for man.

Just as man has a body that was created by God and formed and is given to man for man.


The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God. Romans 8:16


The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1




JLB

 

[JLB]

Why did Nicodemus need to be born again? Nicodemus was a Jew and the seed of Abraham. God had made certain promises to Abraham and his seed. The Jews believed that they were that seed. As the seed of Abraham Nicodemus believed that he was heir to those promises too. However, Jesus is correcting his wrong thinking. He tells Nicodemus that simply being the physical seed of Abraham was not sufficient to gain him access to the Kingdom. The physical Jews were not automatically heirs of those promises. Paul tells us that when God made those promises to Abraham and his seed, He didn't mean all of the physical seed of Abraham, He meant one seed in particular, that seed was Christ.

I agree. People must be born again to access the kingdom of God.





JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi Wondering,

I understand that Being born again is a metaphor for the resurrection. I see the kingdom of God as a literal kingdom that will exist when Christ returns. Some will say that the kingdom exists now, and in a sense I agree. However, I would submit that we will see the fullness of the kingdom when Christ returns.

The New Jerusalem, or the Kingdom of God, will indeed be a real place, a literal Kingdom that will be formed here on earth at the end of time when Jesus returns. The Kingdom certainly does not exist in its fullness now.

Jesus did, however come to set up the Kingdom of God here on earth. In Matthew 4:17 Jesus says
"Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand".

The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven were used interchangeably in the N.T.

If Jesus meant that repenting and turning to God and thus being born again was metaphorical....then if the Kingdom of Heaven was at hand....meaning ready and almost immediate....then why are we still here waiting for Jesus to come back?

Jesus meant to begin a new way for man to get along...to be in tune with the God that made us, to be together with Him in spirit here on earth....we can do this now and we don't have to wait for the literal Kingdom.

2 Corinthians 6:16
16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,
“I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.

God does not literally walk with us....
He does this in Spirit....
God is spirit and He speaks to our spirit....
We worship in spirit.
John 4:24
24“God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.

In Gen. 2:7 Moses records how God created man. He said that God created the man from the dust of the earth. That tells us that man consists of the elements of the earth. God also said to Adam after he ate from the Tree of Knowledge, that he was dust and to dust he would return. God didn't say that Adam was a spirit, He said he was dust. In Gen 2:7 we see the body, the spirit, and the soul. The body is man, the spirit or breath is of God, and those two combine to create the soul. So we see all three things that are associated with man. Man is a body. When that man or body is infused with the breath or spirit of God it becomes a living soul. But again, man is not called a spirit, he is dust.

Man is not a spirit,,,
but man has a spirit.
We are of 3 parts, as you said:
Body, Soul, Spirit

When we come to know God we are born again in spirit...
Jesus said we must be born of water AND spirit.

Some understand the water to be natural birth...
Some undersatand the water to be baptism, whichever you prefer to believe, the fact remains that a second birth is necessary...one of spirit.

Our body becomes dust....
What happens to our soul/spirit?
Do they also die when we die?