once saved always saved

[th1b.taylor]

Reba,
If I messed up shoot me a PM and if not ignore this, please. I know i ride the rim some times, even when I try not to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That unbelief was either there from the beginning or Jesus is a liar and we all know better than that. Jesus assured us all when he said that none can be lost. This is one of those lessons that requires an entire reading of scripture that all the light of all scripture might shine upon it. When we take the totality of the context of the scripture, if you were ever saved, you are saved, period.

There are just too many plain warnings in scripture to saved people to not turn away from their faith that has saved them to assume that Jesus meant 'none being lost' means the believer loses his choice to continue to have faith in God's forgiveness and can not choose to no longer have faith in God's forgiveness.

For some reason many prefer to read into Jesus' words that he meant we can't choose to walk away from him (he doesn't come right out and say that) and ignore where the Bible plainly warns against doing that. Many doctrines have been concocted to explain away all these plain words of scripture in order to make Jesus' more vague words mean what they want them to mean.

The highlighted in red in your post says it all... they were pretenders and He never knew them.

The point was, Eugene said we can live like the devil after we are saved and we will still be saved. But John says the person who lives like the devil is not born again. So, I said, at the very least all OSASer's should be insisting that OSAS means a person is obedient to God and the issue of losing faith and becoming disobedient because of it can not even be a possibility--because John said that person is not saved.

IOW, in their doctrine there can be no such thing as a born again person going back to their sins. That's why non-OSAS is the doctrine that is consistent with scripture. It says the person who goes back to their sins is just that--not born again, and either never was to begin with, or isn't anymore. That is easier the more Biblically accurate doctrine, not OSAS which must argue that a born again person simply can not go back to their sins, because they believe you can not lose your salvation (John said going back to your sins is the equivalent of not being born again). Think about it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

There are just too many plain warnings in scripture to saved people to not turn away from their faith that has saved them to assume that Jesus meant 'none being lost' means the believer loses his choice to continue to have faith in God's forgiveness and can not choose to no longer have faith in God's forgiveness.

For some reason many prefer to read into Jesus' words that he meant we can't choose to walk away from him (he doesn't come right out and say that) and ignore where the Bible plainly warns against doing that. Many doctrines have been concocted to explain away all these plain words of scripture in order to make Jesus' more vague words mean what they want them to mean.



The point was, Eugene said we can live like the devil after we are saved and we will still be saved. But John says the person who lives like the devil is not born again. So, I said, at the very least all OSASer's should be insisting that OSAS means a person is obedient to God and the issue of losing faith and becoming disobedient because of it can not even be a possibility--because John said that person is not saved.

IOW, in their doctrine there can be no such thing as a born again person going back to their sins. That's why non-OSAS is the doctrine that is consistent with scripture. It says the person who goes back to their sins is just that--not born again, and either never was to begin with, or isn't anymore. That is easier the more Biblically accurate doctrine, not OSAS which must argue that a born again person simply can not go back to their sins, because they believe you can not lose your salvation (John said going back to your sins is the equivalent of not being born again). Think about it.

Strained reply, you just defeated your own argument, it does nothing to erode the fact that I am saved and cannot give it away, though.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Strained reply, you just defeated your own argument, it does nothing to erode the fact that I am saved and cannot give it away, though.

I won't know how that can be until you explain it.

What I did was defeat Eugene's argument.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I won't know how that can be until you explain it.

What I did was defeat Eugene's argument.

I'll bet Willie can tell you, I notice that, not only will he not be debating these points, he approved. It might be until the morning before I get a response made but I will, later.

 

[th1b.taylor]

th1b.taylor said: ↑

That unbelief was either there from the beginning or Jesus is a liar and we all know better than that. Jesus assured us all when he said that none can be lost. This is one of those lessons that requires an entire reading of scripture that all the light of all scripture might shine upon it. When we take the totality of the context of the scripture, if you were ever saved, you are saved, period.
There are just too many plain warnings in scripture to saved people to not turn away from their faith that has saved them to assume that Jesus meant 'none being lost' means the believer loses his choice to continue to have faith in God's forgiveness and can not choose to no longer have faith in God's forgiveness.

For some reason many prefer to read into Jesus' words that he meant we can't choose to walk away from him (he doesn't come right out and say that) and ignore where the Bible plainly warns against doing that. Many doctrines have been concocted to explain away all these plain words of scripture in order to make Jesus' more vague words mean what they want them to mean.


th1b.taylor said: ↑

The highlighted in red in your post says it all... they were pretenders and He never knew them.
And you said, The point was, Eugene said we can live like the devil after we are saved and we will still be saved.



And I say that you have a harsh take on what I remember Eugene saying because I didn't see that... perhaps a quote from Eugene's post?

IOW{being a grumpy old man, I have no idea}, in their doctrine there can be no such thing as a born again person going back to their sins.



I don't know the IOWs but they seem to have that right.

From my personal walk with Jesus, I can assure you, I have zero desire to return to the sin I enjoyed so much. I do recall the taste of forty year old Wild Turkey, very well, and I recall how much I love the stuff but I have exactly zero sips since the day of my salvation experience. Likewise I remember the young lasses coming up to the band stand and to my table during break with offers that will excite any man but, again, the LORD presented a beautiful lady from His flock to me and as we grow old together, when the lights go down, she is still the most beautiful woman in the world, and she loves me!



You said, That's why non-OSAS is the doctrine that is consistent with scripture. It says the person who goes back to their sins is just that--not born again, and either never was to begin with, or isn't anymore. That is easier the more Biblically accurate doctrine, not OSAS which must argue that a born again person simply can not go back to their sins, because they believe you can not lose your salvation (John said going back to your sins is the equivalent of not being born again). Think about it.



And right there you have weakened your own argument but to comment further I, once again, need the scriptures.​

 

[Eugene]

The point was, Eugene said we can live like the devil after we are saved and we will still be saved. But John says the person who lives like the devil is not born again. So, I said, at the very least all OSASer's should be insisting that OSAS means a person is obedient to God and the issue of losing faith and becoming disobedient because of it can not even be a possibility--because John said that person is not saved.

IOW, in their doctrine there can be no such thing as a born again person going back to their sins. That's why non-OSAS is the doctrine that is consistent with scripture. It says the person who goes back to their sins is just that--not born again, and either never was to begin with, or isn't anymore. That is easier the more Biblically accurate doctrine, not OSAS which must argue that a born again person simply can not go back to their sins, because they believe you can not lose your salvation (John said going back to your sins is the equivalent of not being born again). Think about it.

Another reason for receiving the Holy Spirit. I don't remember saying someone born of God cannot sin of themselves; we're told that they do, but that it is God keeping them. I also do not know of a child born who can revert to having never been born such as we read in Job 3:3, Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

No, 1 Jn 1:8 says this: If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us; talking of fellowship, but in 1 Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but He that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. This speaks of a sin unto death such as Moses suffered for unbelief; not being unborn. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain, but 1 Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. This to me is akin to Rom 8:4, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us (Not by us), who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Again I quote Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? We absolutely should not, but I also know Gal 5:4 says: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. Even here this is not speaking of our eternal salvation, but as Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. In other words we were born of God by believing on Christ, not returning to circumcision.

Enough I reckon; until we agree in the only sacrifice which saves us being the blood shed, we'll probably never be at peace with this subject, and I can not despise you for what you consider important because God has received you.

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[iLOVE]

Don't you mean you must bring your behavior in line with your faith for faith to be effectual?

If Abraham did not purposely behave in accordance with what he knew to be true through the enabling of faith would he have attained the promise he knew to be true? No, of course not. He would have been showing his indifference, or contempt for what God had shown him to be true. God can not make faith effectual for you unless you act in accordance with that faith.

That's how it is for us Christians. We can't make our faith in the forgiveness of God effectual unto salvation if we don't purposely seek to respond in a way that is appropriate for a person who believes that God has forgiven him in Christ. It means shutting off the computer when tempted to look at pornography, or submitting to authority even when you don't feel like it because God has rescued you from the penalty of having done those things in the past. And if you don't do that, you are choosing to not walk in the grace of God's forgiveness that he has provided for you. That is not a works gospel, but so many people think it is.

Purposely choosing to sin is not 'having faith' in Christ. Plain and simple.

That kind of thinking is erroneous. When we look at our lives and consider our obedience to the faith, we must understand that it is not our obedience that makes us right with God. It is Jesus’ obedience that makes us right with God. Many Christians believe they can obey all the Law and receive God’s blessings. However, only Jesus could keep all the Law. Under the dispensation of grace, it is only by grace through faith that we are made right with God.

By faith, we have received God's unmerited favor through Jesus Christ. We are obedient to the faith when we receive what grace has made available to us. (Romans 1:5 AMP)

We have been made right with God through our faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 5:19).

It’s better to be led by the Holy Spirit instead of rules and laws because He will guide us through specific situations, in which there is no law. He will help us live godly lives. However, when we try to follow the Law and religious rules to achieve righteousness, we rely on our human strength instead of God’s strength. We receive what Jesus has done for us by faith, not our works.

The only solution for sin, the only answer to sin, is the Cross of Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

th1b.taylor said: ↑

The highlighted in red in your post says it all... they were pretenders and He never knew them.
And you said, The point was, Eugene said we can live like the devil after we are saved and we will still be saved.



And I say that you have a harsh take on what I remember Eugene saying because I didn't see that... perhaps a quote from Eugene's post?​

Here it is:

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
...does His seed remain in you? I believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction. I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.

Here he quotes a scripture that says if you are born again you do not live in a lifestyle of sin. Then he turns right around and contradicts it and speaks of 'us'--other people he has seen--who have remained in the pigpen with whom God has been willing to go far with without fearing destruction.

The point is, these people he speaks of that are among 'us' can not be born again. He can't use them as an example of bad Christians still being saved--John plainly said bad 'Christians' aren't born again. That's why I said at the very least OSAS has to acknowledge that falling away and being saved can't even be in the discussion. Yet he uses his experience with fallen 'Christians' among us to somehow defend the belief that you can not sin yourself out of the kingdom.

In non-OSAS this person among 'us' who is living in a lifestyle of sin (whom John says is not born again), that doesn't mean he never was born again. It means he is not anymore. John warns earlier in chapter two that we are to be careful to hold on to that which we have received:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

The point being, just because John says the person who is living in habitual sin can not be born again it does not instantly mean he never ever was but that he did not let that which abideth in him from the beginning abide to the end.

So, what OSAS has to prove is that the fallen person among 'us' could not ever have been saved to begin with--that is after OSAS honestly abandons the doctrine that saved people can be become utterly sinful and still be saved--John says they can't become utterly sinful in the first place.

IOW{being a grumpy old man, I have no idea}

'In Other Words'.

​

From my personal walk with Jesus, I can assure you, I have zero desire to return to the sin I enjoyed so much. I do recall the taste of forty year old Wild Turkey, very well, and I recall how much I love the stuff but I have exactly zero sips since the day of my salvation experience. Likewise I remember the young lasses coming up to the band stand and to my table during break with offers that will excite any man but, again, the LORD presented a beautiful lady from His flock to me and as we grow old together, when the lights go down, she is still the most beautiful woman in the world, and she loves me!​

And you are making the same mistake I made for many, many years. I, too, have a very dramatic salvation experience. I started out strong in faith. But that doesn't mean everybody else does too. People like you, me, and Rollo have to be careful to not project the surety of our strong faith onto others and insist they will be strong and not fail, too, because OSAS is true. We can not condescend to them. I now know they detest when we do that to them. We have to empathize with their weak faith and warn them politely and honestly that what they started out with must remain and grow for them to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

You said, That's why non-OSAS is the doctrine that is consistent with scripture. It says the person who goes back to their sins is just that--not born again, and either never was to begin with, or isn't anymore. That is easier the more Biblically accurate doctrine, not OSAS which must argue that a born again person simply can not go back to their sins, because they believe you can not lose your salvation (John said going back to your sins is the equivalent of not being born again). Think about it.

And right there you have weakened your own argument but to comment further I, once again, need the scriptures.​

Let me say it again. OSAS says, based on this one verse by itself, that since the person who still sins habitually is not born again that they were never ever born again with. But they unrightly divide the word of God by isolating that verse from what John said earlier in the letter:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

The point being, what abides in us in the beginning won't automatically keep abiding in us as OSAS teaches. WE must LET IT keep abiding in us. The 'Christian' who is purposely looking at pornography, or rebelling against authority (for example), thinking it's okay because "OSAS" has been deceived. For them one of two things is true: 1) they were never born again to begin with, or 2) they do not have abiding in them what they had in the beginning and are no longer born again (habitual sinners aren't born again).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That kind of thinking is erroneous. When we look at our lives and consider our obedience to the faith, we must understand that it is not our obedience that makes us right with God. It is Jesus’ obedience that makes us right with God. Many Christians believe they can obey all the Law and receive God’s blessings. However, only Jesus could keep all the Law. Under the dispensation of grace, it is only by grace through faith that we are made right with God.

But as I'm explaining, going back to your sins is equivalent to no longer having the faith that justifies. Because if you did still have the faith that justifies you would not be going back to your sins. Understand?

The point being, it's impossible to say you still have the faith that saves if you are living in a sinful lifestyle. Why? Because John said the person who is doing that is not born again. So one of two things is true: 1) they were never born again to begin with, or 2) they did not heed the warning of John to let that which they heard in the beginning abide in them.

By faith, we have received God's unmerited favor through Jesus Christ. We are obedient to the faith when we receive what grace has made available to us. (Romans 1:5 AMP)

We have been made right with God through our faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 5:19).

But you can not remain right with God if you no longer have that faith. John said so, because the person who is in habitual sin is not born again.

It’s better to be led by the Holy Spirit instead of rules and laws because He will guide us through specific situations, in which there is no law. He will help us live godly lives. However, when we try to follow the Law and religious rules to achieve righteousness, we rely on our human strength instead of God’s strength. We receive what Jesus has done for us by faith, not our works.

This is what is so terribly wrong in some charismatic type churches. They think if a Christian purposely doesn't steal out of the cash register at work because the good Book says 'do not steal' they are living a life of sinful works. But if when you are tempted to steal out of the cash register at work and you don't because you get swept off your feet by a supernatural move of the Spirit you are only then living according to the Spirit. That's ridiculous. For the Christian, not sinning anymore is about having your mind changed about sin by the work of God in you by the Holy Spirit. That may or may not be through supernatural manifestations of the Spirit, but it is still through the Holy Spirit nonetheless.

'Not sinning' is living according to the Spirit of God. Not sinning in the hope that God will declare you righteous for that effort is what living a damnable works gospel is. It isn't simply reading in the Bible what is right and wrong and then obeying it. That's ridiculous.

 

[JLB]

Eugene said -

Another reason for receiving the Holy Spirit. I don't remember saying someone born of God cannot sin of themselves; we're told that they do, but that it is God keeping them. I also do not know of a child born who can revert to having never been born such as we read in Job 3:3, Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

Is Satan God's son?


JLB

 

[JLB]

That kind of thinking is erroneous. When we look at our lives and consider our obedience to the faith, we must understand that it is not our obedience that makes us right with God. It is Jesus’ obedience that makes us right with God. Many Christians believe they can obey all the Law and receive God’s blessings. However, only Jesus could keep all the Law. Under the dispensation of grace, it is only by grace through faith that we are made right with God.

By faith, we have received God's unmerited favor through Jesus Christ. We are obedient to the faith when we receive what grace has made available to us. (Romans 1:5 AMP)

We have been made right with God through our faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 5:19).

It’s better to be led by the Holy Spirit instead of rules and laws because He will guide us through specific situations, in which there is no law. He will help us live godly lives. However, when we try to follow the Law and religious rules to achieve righteousness, we rely on our human strength instead of God’s strength. We receive what Jesus has done for us by faith, not our works.

The only solution for sin, the only answer to sin, is the Cross of Christ.

Although I agree with you on many points, I see you are convoluting the whole "righteousness" idea.

Let's discuss this point.

I know we are taught that we are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus, however, let's examine some scriptures along this line of thinking.



For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:21

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. James 2:21-23

Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Abraham obeyed what God told him to do and it was accounted to him as righteousness.

Without Abraham obeying God and taking Isaac up on the mountain to be sacrificed, then it would not have been counted to him as righteousness.

The Lord didn't do the work of obeying for Abraham.


Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.

It is Jesus with in us expressing His life through us in obedience to God that make us a righteous person, for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

If we never obey the leading of the Holy Spirit to walk in the righteous works that God predestined us to walk in before the foudation of the world, then we can expect to hear these words on the day of Judgement -


41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.' 44 Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." Matthew 25:41-46


...you did not do it


JLB

 

[th1b.taylor]

1Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
...does His seed remain in you? I believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction. I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.
Here he quotes a scripture that says if you are born again you do not live in a lifestyle of sin. Then he turns right around and contradicts it and speaks of 'us'--other people he has seen--who have remained in the pigpen with whom God has been willing to go far with without fearing destruction.

The point is, these people he speaks of that are among 'us' can not be born again. He can't use them as an example of bad Christians still being saved--John plainly said bad 'Christians' aren't born again. That's why I said at the very least OSAS has to acknowledge that falling away and being saved can't even be in the discussion. Yet he uses his experience with fallen 'Christians' among us to somehow defend the belief that you can not sin yourself out of the kingdom.

In non-OSAS this person among 'us' who is living in a lifestyle of sin (whom John says is not born again), that doesn't mean he never was born again. It means he is not anymore. John warns earlier in chapter two that we are to be careful to hold on to that which we have received:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (John 2:24 NASB)
The point being, just because John says the person who is living in habitual sin can not be born again it does not instantly mean he never ever was but that he did not let that which abideth in him from the beginning abide to the end.

So, what OSAS has to prove is that the fallen person among 'us' could not ever have been saved to begin with--that is after OSAS honestly abandons the doctrine that saved people can be become utterly sinful and still be saved--John says they can't become utterly sinful in the first place. [ASV]

And then we need all of scripture here but for this conversation let's just deal with the context above and Romans 3. When we couple this text from 1 John with the text of Romans 3:10 & 23 we need to prayerfully consult the Holy Spirit because we know there is no imperfection in God and yet any Lost Man will see a contradiction here.

These verses speak to a truth that is essential. (By the way, Eugene did not say this, scripture did.) From Romans we know that every man, woman and child, no matter how young has and will sin so what the devil? Life Example: When I was a Lost Man I went home with a few women and I did as I had planned. I lived a life of sin. I'm boasted then of it but now it is just one more badge of shame the LORD removed.

Now, I, like the passage quoted speaks to, no longer plan to sin. I still trip and fall into sin on occasion but just as First John teaches I strive to live a holy life, I plan to live a holy life to honor my LORD and when I fall, I immediately place my face to the ground and repent, asking forgiveness and reinstatement, the washing away of that sin.

Like I said I do not have the time nor the space here to list and publish the entire Bible but to fully understand what I have stated here, one needs to read all of it in prayer and submission.

 

[th1b.taylor]

1Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
...does His seed remain in you? I believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction. I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.
Here he quotes a scripture that says if you are born again you do not live in a lifestyle of sin. Then he turns right around and contradicts it and speaks of 'us'--other people he has seen--who have remained in the pigpen with whom God has been willing to go far with without fearing destruction.

The point is, these people he speaks of that are among 'us' can not be born again. He can't use them as an example of bad Christians still being saved--John plainly said bad 'Christians' aren't born again. That's why I said at the very least OSAS has to acknowledge that falling away and being saved can't even be in the discussion. Yet he uses his experience with fallen 'Christians' among us to somehow defend the belief that you can not sin yourself out of the kingdom.

In non-OSAS this person among 'us' who is living in a lifestyle of sin (whom John says is not born again), that doesn't mean he never was born again. It means he is not anymore. John warns earlier in chapter two that we are to be careful to hold on to that which we have received:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (John 2:24 NASB)
The point being, just because John says the person who is living in habitual sin can not be born again it does not instantly mean he never ever was but that he did not let that which abideth in him from the beginning abide to the end.

So, what OSAS has to prove is that the fallen person among 'us' could not ever have been saved to begin with--that is after OSAS honestly abandons the doctrine that saved people can be become utterly sinful and still be saved--John says they can't become utterly sinful in the first place. [ASV]

And then we need all of scripture here but for this conversation let's just deal with the context above and Romans 3. When we couple this text from 1 John with the text of Romans 3:10 & 23 we need to prayerfully consult the Holy Spirit because we know there is no imperfection in God and yet any Lost Man will see a contradiction here.

These verses speak to a truth that is essential. (By the way, Eugene did not say this, scripture did.) From Romans we know that every man, woman and child, no matter how young has and will sin so what the devil? Life Example: When I was a Lost Man I went home with a few women and I did as I had planned. I lived a life of sin. I'm boasted then of it but now it is just one more badge of shame the LORD removed.

Now, I, like the passage quoted speaks to, no longer plan to sin. I still trip and fall into sin on occasion but just as First John teaches I strive to live a holy life, I plan to live a holy life to honor my LORD and when I fall, I immediately place my face to the ground and repent, asking forgiveness and reinstatement, the washing away of that sin.

Like I said I do not have the time nor the space here to list and publish the entire Bible but to fully understand what I have stated here, one needs to read all of it in prayer and submission.

 

[th1b.taylor]

1Jn 3:9

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
...does His seed remain in you? I believe God has already proven how far He is willing to do for us without our fearing destruction. I will say that I have seen many remaining in the pigpen for a big part of their lives.
Here he quotes a scripture that says if you are born again you do not live in a lifestyle of sin. Then he turns right around and contradicts it and speaks of 'us'--other people he has seen--who have remained in the pigpen with whom God has been willing to go far with without fearing destruction.

The point is, these people he speaks of that are among 'us' can not be born again. He can't use them as an example of bad Christians still being saved--John plainly said bad 'Christians' aren't born again. That's why I said at the very least OSAS has to acknowledge that falling away and being saved can't even be in the discussion. Yet he uses his experience with fallen 'Christians' among us to somehow defend the belief that you can not sin yourself out of the kingdom.

In non-OSAS this person among 'us' who is living in a lifestyle of sin (whom John says is not born again), that doesn't mean he never was born again. It means he is not anymore. John warns earlier in chapter two that we are to be careful to hold on to that which we have received:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (John 2:24 NASB)
The point being, just because John says the person who is living in habitual sin can not be born again it does not instantly mean he never ever was but that he did not let that which abideth in him from the beginning abide to the end.

So, what OSAS has to prove is that the fallen person among 'us' could not ever have been saved to begin with--that is after OSAS honestly abandons the doctrine that saved people can be become utterly sinful and still be saved--John says they can't become utterly sinful in the first place. [ASV]

And then we need all of scripture here but for this conversation let's just deal with the context above and Romans 3. When we couple this text from 1 John with the text of Romans 3:10 & 23 we need to prayerfully consult the Holy Spirit because we know there is no imperfection in God and yet any Lost Man will see a contradiction here.

These verses speak to a truth that is essential. (By the way, Eugene did not say this, scripture did.) From Romans we know that every man, woman and child, no matter how young has and will sin so what the devil? Life Example: When I was a Lost Man I went home with a few women and I did as I had planned. I lived a life of sin. I'm boasted then of it but now it is just one more badge of shame the LORD removed.

Now, I, like the passage quoted speaks to, no longer plan to sin. I still trip and fall into sin on occasion but just as First John teaches I strive to live a holy life, I plan to live a holy life to honor my LORD and when I fall, I immediately place my face to the ground and repent, asking forgiveness and reinstatement, the washing away of that sin.

Like I said I do not have the time nor the space here to list and publish the entire Bible but to fully understand what I have stated here, one needs to read all of it in prayer and submission.

 

[th1b.taylor]

And you are making the same mistake I made for many, many years. I, too, have a very dramatic salvation experience. I started out strong in faith. But that doesn't mean everybody else does too. People like you, me, and Rollo have to be careful to not project the surety of our strong faith onto others and insist they will be strong and not fail, too. We can not condescend to them. I now know they detest when we do that to them.

I am beginning to wish I did not know about the survey of the American Church Universal but it is indicative of the truth the scriptures teach us. Jesus taught that the Way was and is straight and the Gate narrow that leads to righteousness and Heaven. I do not need to nor shall I ever cease to project the very thing 99.9% of the World needs. Rollo (and I hope that is pronounced roll yo) and I are stuck, right behind the Holy Spirit and neither of us is filled with Road Rage. People that have not the surety of their salvation, likely, fall into the better than 98% of the Faithful that do not believe the basic tenants of the Christian Faith/Walk.

Rollo and I will pray that you move close your walk with Jesus once more for that is not a mistake.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Let me say it again. OSAS says, based on this one verse by itself, that since the person who still sins habitually is not born again that they were never ever born again with. But they unrightly divide the word of God by isolating that verse from what John said earlier in the letter:

"24 As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning." (John 2:24 NASB)

The point being, what abides in us in the beginning won't automatically keep abiding in us as OSAS teaches. WE must LET IT keep abiding in us. The 'Christian' who is purposely looking at pornography, or rebelling against authority (for example), thinking it's okay has been deceived: 1) that they were ever born again to begin with, or 2) that they still have abiding in them what they had in the beginning.

I notice a couple of basic errors here. OSAS is not standing on one verse and a Google search for "eternal salvation" will supply you with the verses because the basis of this position is broad based and when the other side's proof texts are added in, it still stands. Once again i ask everyone here, do not follow the heretic's lead and build false theology on a single verse. The Bible has about forty scribes but it has only one author with one message.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rollo and I will pray that you move close your walk with Jesus once more for that is not a mistake.

I don't understand why you are saying this. I said I have very strong faith. I started out that way. The mistake I learned I was making was to assume everyone else HAD to invariably be exactly where I am at in my strong faith that . So it reasoned to me that OSAS was true because the surety of salvation was very real to me--because I just happened to have strong faith--not because the doctrine is true.

But I now see that was just my own personal experience with the surety of salvation, not the truth of scripture. I saw it that way because I did not, and do not, struggle with wondering if I'm saved and going to be saved on the Day of Wrath. My faith is strong, therefore, I personally don't struggle with wondering about the surely of my salvation, but my experience is hardly what makes OSAS true, that's the point. There are legitimate Christians who don't have as strong a faith as you and I have. We can't project the surety of our own strong faith and salvation onto them--a surety that makes OSAS seem like the truth to us, but which really isn't.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I don't understand why you are saying this. I said I have very strong faith. I started out that way. The mistake I learned I was making was to assume everyone else HAD to invariably be exactly where I am at in my strong faith that . So it reasoned to me that since OSAS was very real to me--because I just happened to have strong faith--then it must be true. But I now see that was just my own personal experience with the surety of salvation, not the truth of scripture. I saw it that way because I did not, and do not, struggle with wondering if I'm saved and going to be saved on the Day of Wrath. My faith is strong, therefore, I personally don't struggle with wondering about the surely of my salvation, but my experience is hardly makes OSAS true, that's the point. There are legitimate Christians who don't have as strong a faith as you and I have. We can't project the surety of our own strong faith and the surety of our salvation onto them by.

You are not taking my message any different than what you are doing with the scriptures. The context is, once again, essential. You cautioned me and Rollo not to project our surety, just as you no longer do and I believe I implied in the context that I would die projecting what the world needs. I may have said it, i'll need to read my own post. MS!

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I notice a couple of basic errors here. OSAS is not standing on one verse.

And I agree. But surely you can see that just from 1 John 3:9 NASB alone it's impossible for a OSASer to even consider the argument that the habitually sinful believer is OSAS. Think about it.