Opinion.....Timing of the Rapture....

[Georges]

Up until recently, I was a rock solid pretrib rapturist. Now, i'm not so sure and I'm still doing the research.

Of course it can't be denied that that prophecy evidence points to the 7 feast days of the Lord (Lev 23) as being the timing template for the 1st and 2nd comings of the Messiah.

The breakdown is as follows:

1st Coming:

Passover (Lev 23:5): Crucifixion
Unleavened Bread (Lev 23:6-8): Burial
First Fruits (Lev 23:8-14) Resurrection
Pentecost (Lev 23:15-22) Decent of the HS

2nd Coming:

Trumpets (Lev 23:23-26) Rapture
Atonement (Lev 23:27-32) Second Coming of Messiah
Tabernacles (Lev 23:33-36)



Many pretrib people use the Feast day template and the template of the Marriage Ceremony in Ancient Israel (A seven day affair) as a timeline for the Rapture in relation to the 2nd coming. I also did this trying to justify a rapture before a 7-year tribulation period.

I still believe in the validity of a pre "Great Tribulation" rapture but I'm not so sure of it occurring 7 years before the return of the Messiah. I base this statement off the quick rapid sequence of events (Feast day timing) that occurred during the Messiah's first coming.

If the timing of Feast day events during Messiah's first coming were a matter of days, then wouldn't the same hold true for the second set of Feast day events?

In other words, it is a Jewish belief that the Messiah will appear on a future "Yom Kippur", that is the Jewish day of Atonement. If the Jewish feast of Trumpets "Rosh HaShanah" occurs 10 days before "yom Kippur", and given that the 1st set of feast day events happened, not over years, but days, then the rapture (on Rosh HaShanah) may actually occur 7 days before the 2nd Coming.


Help me out on this and show me where I may be in err.....

 

[Darrell dunn]

You are right about the Feast.

Altho there will be about 10 years between, Trumpets and atonement.
I think the 10 days represent 10 years, here and in Rev.2:10

Right after the taking of the church, Ezek38&39 will take place.Rev.6;3-4 The second seal, the red horse, And the Jews will burn the weapons for 7 years. Bringing them to the mid. point of the 7 yrs foretold Dan.9:27

Right after the taking of the church the AC will start his rise to power, killing the foolish virgins along the way.Rev.6:9-11. Which will last about 3 1/2 yrs

The sealing of the 144,000 Jews start the 7 yrs covenant between God and Daniels people. Dan.11:28, 11:30-31 The Holy covenant

 

[Georges]

Darrell,

Are you sure about the 10 days = 10 years? I agree that the 10 days of Awe represent the rapture, tribulation (possibly the great tribulation) and the second coming. I used to believe (and still lean towards) 7 days = 7 years.....Of course this corresponds to the traditional 7 days of the bridal week. The Ancient Jewish wedding corresponds perfectly with the rapture situation. Still, the rapidity of the first coming feast events do set a prototype (in theory) as to the rapidity of how the feast events related to the second coming may transpire.


Also consider this.....There are 2 days to the Rosh Hashanah feast day (as it is considered 1 long day) and 1 for Yom Kippur. Subtract the 3 from 10 and you get 7 days in between RH and YK, or 7 days between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

 

[Georges]

I can see how the 10 days of Awe (Yamim Noraim) between Tishri 1 and 10 as being a template for 10 years however, there isn't any other prpphecy situation that I can see where 10 is used in a prophetical sense (please correct me if i'm in err).....In regard to the tribulation period, I do believe it is 7 years long in duration however, that doesn't necessarily mean that the rapture has to happen 7 years (or more) before the second coming. The Tribulation may be 7 years long and the rapture may occur 7 day's (Jewish wedding ceremony) before the second coming and prior to the Great Tribulation. This may be a type of a dual prophecy fulfillment. As I'm pretty sure the time term in Hebrew for shabuah can mean 7 days, 7 months, 7 weeks, or 7 years. I don't know, I vacillate (?) between 7 days and 7 years trying to justify both, one or the other.

For years I was convinced of a pretrib rapture before a 7 year tribulation. Now, I'm not so sure you can't have both a 7 year tribulation and have a Greater Tribulation (all hell breaks loose) period before the second coming, and that the rapture happens 7 days before the second coming and before the Great Tribulation. I am one of those who see the timing of tribulation everts (seals, trumpets, bowls) not in sequential order, but rather they happen concurrently, with the 7th of each happening simultaneously. I'm beginning to lean toward's a pre Great Tribulation rapture as opposed to a pre Tribulation rapture.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[Geo]

I'm not sure if it's just an unnecessarily willful complication
of things to look at a "Great tribulation" outsite of 7 years
of tribulation. That's either not fact, or is a point that doesn't
matter once you're in that time. I lean towards the first.

In recent weeks I saved about 10 web pages to my HD that
speak about that in detail, and one of the 'most balanced' ones I read
is this one, it's better than the '50 reasons' in my opinion because
it comes more to the essential point without following every possibility:

http://www.letusreason.org/Proph3.htm

 

[Vic C.]

In that commentary, it first mentions The Day of the Lord as God's judgement (wrath).

The reason for this hope he explains is God has not appointed us “the Church†to wrath (v. 9). He has already explained the resurrection in chapter 4 the teaching is now about the Day of the Lord (judgment). God has not appointed the Church to the Lord’s wrath.

Then they lump God's Wrath into the Tribulation.

Instead the Church is appointed to obtain salvation, deliverance from that wrath (the tribulation) that is coming on the world culminating in Christ’s coming.

Then a little futhrer down, it mentions this;

The Tribulation that is coming is a test on the whole world at the end of the age, that will come from God’s hand against sin.

IMO, if one studies Scripture with an open mind and not with preconceived ideas about what the Great Tribulation is, they would probably come to the conclusion that the GT and The Day of the Lord are two seperate events.

Jesus even speaks about shortening those day. Yet there is no mention in Daniel that his 70th. week is being shortened. So I can only conclude that Jesus is telling us this is an event in itself, within the 70th. week. It has been my understanding that Tribulation has usually been against God's elect, while Wrath is usually directed towards the disobediant, unbelieving people on Earth. So why all of a sudden is Tribulation now from the Hand of God? I believe He allows Antichrist (Satan) a time of Great Tribulation against the saints (both OT and NT) but (He) takes no active part in persecuting them.

 

[Darrell dunn]

Georges

Rev.2:10 also mentions the 10 days.
the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation 10 days: be thou faithful unto death,

Why a set 10 days for the tribulations?

Being faithful till death coincides with Rev.12:11 and they loved not their lives unto death.

Ezek38 &39 the war I believe the rapture will happen just before this.

Then the Jews burn the weapons for 7 years Ezek 39:9, and that has to happen before the abomination of desolation, because the jews will fee to the mountains at that time.

Then Dan.12:11 says from the abomination till the end there will be 1290 days or 3 1/2 yrs

Therefore 10 years.

And the 7 yr covenant Dan.9:27 is between God and the Jews. starting with the sealing of the 144,000 Rev.7:1

 

[Geo]

Did you consider that everytime 1290 days or 3 1/2 yrs is mentioned
that it describes either the first or the second half of the 7-years?

Each time addressing those two parts individually and detailing their
differences. When mentioned as a 7-years unit speaking about what
both defines them without looking at the differences. Once you cannot
indentify one of the 31/2 parts you are tempted to attach it as a separate unit.

What speaks against it is Rev.2:10 mentioning the 10 days.
If you followed recent world politics one can argue that has
either started or is currently prepared for a intended general misuse.
All major western countries changed the laws to jail people without trial.
There are global detention centers that operate outsite of individual country
laws. Anyone can get imprisoned currently with pretense outside
your ability to defend or deny.

Dan9:27 speaks about the covenant with "many" , I cannot find
that it's starting with the sealing of the 144,000. It may as well
happen in "the middle of the week", together with Dan.12:11

"Ezek38 &39 the war I believe the rapture will happen just before this."
That's what's most likely, it is possible though that this starts a '10 years'
time frame with the rapture after the war but before the 7-years.