Orthodox reasoning/Praying to Saints

[Relic]

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I'm sorry if I am making this topic redundant. But... I am lost for finding the specific scripture proving, or disproving this guys reasoning.

Can anyone please reply to this, and show me where this guy are right or wrong with providing scripture that proves this guy right or wrong?
Below is why I am posting this:




Sunday May 22, 2005 4:00 PM, I happened to turn on my radio WHK 1220, and this broadcast was on the air, Come Receive the Light. Radio Broadcast.

I was intrigued with this particular section in the program in which Chuck Powell, the director of Media Development for Come Receive the Light, and Spiro Bobotas, the producer of the broadcast, had this discussion on Why the Orthodox pray to the Saints.

I decided to type up an excerpt of the discussion they had on the Orthodox position for praying to the saints because I started to wonder what you all would think about their reasoning and justification of why they pray to the saints and how you agree or disagree with their perspectives, and why. I thought it to be very slick how they justified their reasonings. And I would like to see scripture that proves them right or wrong. Since I'm not as good at disproving or proving them in the way in which these guys made their presentation.

So,I ask this of you, Gary Bee, BibleBerean, POT LUCK, and/or ANYONE, who can easily come back with a rebuttal,
for the sake of the person who is not very privy to why we should not pray to saints, can you please show, specifically where this guy Chuck, is right or wrong? Maybe, by cutting and pasting where you agree or disagree. Thanks

"Saints and Sanctity and The Age of The Simpsons"

“How do we develop an attitude of excellence in a sea of mediocrity? We are called to be Saints!†Join Dr. Peter Bouteneff, Professor at St. Vladimir’s Theological Seminary to hear a discussion on a pop cultural phenomenon in the satirical Simpsons program. Dr. Bouteneff focuses on how the Simpsons, making fun of shallow theology, can help the rest of us focus on a sober, mature faith. The time has come to praise the sanctity of holiness. Be sure to tune in to a very interesting, lighthearted program.

Part ONE of the Broadcast: ( Note: This portion takes up only the first 10 minutes out of the whole show of approx. 26 minutes. )

Chuck: "The Orthodox position on why we pray and we ask the saints to pray for us, is based not on some kind of communicating with the dead or of seanances or Ouija boards or anything like that foolishness. It's based on the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."


Chuck: When I ask my brothers and sisters who have gone on before me, to pray for me, I declare in my own soul, and make it clear to everyone around me, I believe in the resurrection of the dead.

Announcer ( Fr. Chris Metropulos) : Dr. Chuck Powell is the director of Development for Come Receive the Light and Spiro Bobotas is the producer this broadcast and they are back in the studio again, this time talking about Prayer.

Spiro: Chuck tell me, in your everyday life, um, I always get the questions about the faith, people who are outside the faith, people who are in the faith. But one of the things that is asked is, Do you pray to dead people? Have you ever heard it.

Chuck: Of course, you better believe it. In fact, when I was becoming Orthodox, that's the question that I had to answer with my friends that knew me. They would say, "Do you Orthodox people pray to dead people?" I always say, Well, of course not, of course we don't pray to dead people. But, folks don't understand, and what they really miss is, the Orthodox Christian position on why we pray and we ask the saints to pray for us, is based not on some kind of communicating with the dead or of seance or Ouija boards or anything like that foolishness. It's based on the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Of course we don't pray to dead people. We ask our brothers and sisters, to pray for us, whether they are here, or there. And it's alright.

Spiro: So , there's no difference between asking the person who is sitting right next to you in the church to pray for something that you need whether in health, or any other thing that you're praying for? Are you saying that there's no difference there?

Chuck: Well, actually there is a huge difference. The folks in heaven are closer to Christ.
That makes a difference. Let me read you a passage of scripture. The Apostle Paul is writing to the Corinthian church, and He, and in 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 he, in fact, he just spent most of the chapter talking about the resurrection of Jesus, and the fact that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is REAL, AND, it has changed everything. He says, "Therefore from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh, even though we have known Christ according to the flesh. Yet now we know him thus, no longer. Therefore, if anyone is IN Christ, (there's the operative phrase, right there) he is a new creature: old things have become new." And so, being in Christ, our brothers and sisters who have lived many centuries ago, are still alive, IN Christ. In fact, the apostle goes on in another place, and talks about the church as the body of Christ, and nothing can separate us from the love of God. Not even death can separate us from the love of God. Well, if we can't be separated by death from the love of God, then we can't be separated from each other, by death. Because, we're IN Christ. In fact, the most important thing is, if I ask my brothers and sisters who are in heaven to remember me in prayer, to pray for me, as an intercessor in prayer. If I get a chance to ask them to pray for me, what a wonderful opportunity that is. And plus Spiro, when I ask my brothers and sisters who have gone before me to pray for me, I declare in my own soul, and make it clear to everyone around me, I believe in the resurrection of the dead. They pray for me and their prayers are effective, for me. Then we have a passage... (interrupted by Spiro)

Spiro: I believe in James 5:16 it says, "fervent prayers of a righteous man availeth much."

Chuck: There you go, and let me tell you something. Our brothers who stand around the throne who enjoy the presence of Jesus Christ in a way that we do not yet, but we will, fervently pray for us. Thank God, that my brothers and sisters cannot be separated by death. And, that they are powerful friends, who pray for me that I will finish the race, that they had finished.

Announcer: .... etc.

END of excerpt of the dialog I typed from the show.

------------------------------------------------------------
The rest of the show PART TWO contains a break for news reports announcements, and then back to the show the discussion is then on the television show The Simpsons. (of which they see nothing wrong with watching that show. But do say it is not for children :-/ )
Hosted by Fr. Christopher Metropulos and so-Host, Emmy Louvaris, with Guest Professor Dr. Peter Bouteneff to talk about Saints Sanctity in the Age of the Simpsons.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Listen to the whole broadcast here:
http://www.receive.org:12042/ramgen/Archive/crtl052105.rm

Staff of the Come Receive the Light Radio Broadcast:
http://www.receive.org/index.php?submenu=20
-------------------------------------------------------------

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[Heidi]

Praying to saints is like me trying to communicate with my husband who's standing right in front of me by praying to his dead mother so she'll communicate to him what I want to say. It is bypassing Jesus Christ inside of us.

Those who have received the Holy Spirit inside of them don't do this. John 14:20, when talking about believers receiving the Holy Spirit, Jesus says; "On that day, you will realize that I am in my Father and you are in me and I am in you." Jesus, nor anyone else in the bible says anything about going through Mary to come to Jesus. Nothing. Zero. Zip. Nor does the bible say anywhere to pray to anyone except our Father in heaven. In fact, it tells us emphatically not to do this. Prayer is reserved for worship, period. It is a sacred act that conveys adoration and worship of the object to whom we are praying.

So bypassing Christ to pray to a person which leads us back to Christ is again like me trying to communicate with someone through someone else instead of communicating directly to the person himself. But those who have not received the Holy Spirit have no choice but to do this. They do not know Christ personally so they feel that they can reach him through other people. But if they knew Christ personally through the Holy Spirit they do not need another intercessor. Jesus is the only way to God. The only way. He himself says this. But sadly, there are many who call themselves Christians who do not believe him.

Jesus tells us everything we need to know about salvation, heaven, & hell through himself and the apostles. And Paul tells us that anyone who abandons his words and listens to any other teacher is a false apostle. Jesus says we have one teacher and that is the Christ. If all "Christians" believed him, then we would all be in unity. But most do not.

 

[Relic]

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Yes, I believe that we should only pray to Jesus. but I don't know if I have ever broken that rule of order by praying for others on their behalf, because they ask me to pray for them. :-? That is what is confusing me. And the fact that if we are alive in Christ we are not dead, but alive whether here on earth or there in heaven. We are still considered alive. According to the reasoning of Chuck Powell and the scripture he uses as reference.


whew! What a pickle. :-?



But then I ask this....So then, what is the reason for having a Prayer Forum with all those threads for prayer requests, and what is the reason to ask others to pray for you?

This guy Chuck Powell thinks it is no different to pray for people here on earth or asking those as it is for them to be in heaven. He says this:


"...But, folks don't understand, and what they really miss is, the Orthodox Christian position on why we pray and we ask the saints to pray for us, is based not on some kind of communicating with the dead or of seance or Ouija boards or anything like that foolishness. It's based on the truth of the resurrection of Jesus Christ." Of course we don't pray to dead people. We ask our brothers and sisters, to pray for us, whether they are here, or there. And it's alright. "

Spiro: So , there's no difference between asking the person who is sitting right next to you in the church to pray for something that you need whether in health, or any other thing that you're praying for? Are you saying that there's no difference there?

Chuck: "Well, actually there is a huge difference. The folks in heaven are closer to Christ.
That makes a difference. Let me read you a passage of scripture. The Apostle Paul is writing to the Corinthian church, and He, and in 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 he, in fact, he just spent most of the chapter talking about the resurrection of Jesus, and the fact that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is REAL, AND, it has changed everything. He says, "Therefore from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh, even though we have known Christ according to the flesh. Yet now we know him thus, no longer. Therefore, if anyone is IN Christ, (there's the operative phrase, right there) he is a new creature: old things have become new." And so, being in Christ, our brothers and sisters who have lived many centuries ago, are still alive, IN Christ. In fact, the apostle goes on in another place, and talks about the church as the body of Christ, and nothing can separate us from the love of God. Not even death can separate us from the love of God. Well, if we can't be separated by death from the love of God, then we can't be separated from each other, by death. Because, we're IN Christ. In fact, the most important thing is, if I ask my brothers and sisters who are in heaven to remember me in prayer, to pray for me, as an intercessor in prayer. If I get a chance to ask them to pray for me, what a wonderful opportunity that is. And plus Spiro, when I ask my brothers and sisters who have gone before me to pray for me, I declare in my own soul, and make it clear to everyone around me, I believe in the resurrection of the dead. They pray for me and their prayers are effective, for me. "

-----------------------------

This leaves me confused as to why should anyone ask each other to pray for each other. Because if we are all alive IN Christ, then according to Chuck Powell, we are not separated by death, not even those in heaven. So he thinks it's okay. But I wonder..... what is to disprove his example of alive in Christ and no separation? He thinks, therefore, we can ask others to pray for us and others, whether they are alive or not on this earth. Because it is not the physical body that is in heaven. It is the spirit, and that IS ALIVE IN CHRIST. And that makes it all no different than asking people here on earth to pray for each other.

This all leaves me scratching my head in a confusion as to whether he's got a good point about that or not. I know Christ is the only intercessor for us! And I don't see where we are to not pray for each other. But then I ask.... why do we ask each other to pray for each other if Jesus is our only intercessor? I hear prayer requests in churches, on the radio, and even on this board many people say pray for me, please.
Why don't they just ask Jesus directly? Why is there a prayer forum here if we are to not intercede for each other, but to only go Directly to Christ Jesus for that? Why even bother to ask anyone to pray for them? That is what I'm wondering? And if we are ALIVE IN CHRIST. then we are not dead nor are we separate. That is leaving me scratching my head with Chuck Powells reasoning. :smt017

.It makes sense, but then it appears, at the same time, it doesn't make sense. :smt102 :-?

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[Heidi]

There's a huge difference between praying for someone and praying to them. When we pray to someone we are holding that person above us and putting ourselves at that person's mercy. None of the prophets ever bowed down to kings or any worldly person. Only to God because prayer connotates worship and reverence. The catholics treat Mary and human beings exactly the same way they treat God. That is idol-worship.

Praying for someone is praying to God about them. It is asking God for his intervention in their lives. Therefore it is direct communication with God about other people. It gives the power to God and only God, not to human beings. There would be no confusion if the catholics had never put Mary on a pedestal. All Christians would simply believe Jesus when he tells us to whom we must pray.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Hello Relic:
You are asking the right questions. I suggest that you continue to read the scripture and seek the matter out for yourself.

The key question that you are asking (regarding the practice of intercession of Christians, one for another- and why we would ever do so in the first place) is a matter of huge import. If we are only to approach Christ in prayer, then I should never have anyone else here on earth pray for me. If those in heaven are truly alive, why should they not pray for me?

The question then comes: Are those saints in heaven omnipresent? In other words, how can they hear me?

There are different answers to these questions. I hope you keep asking questions, and don't settle for pat answers.

Iakovos

 

[notapseudonym]

If we look at 1 Timothy 2:1-4 we see that it is pleasing to God that we pray for one another here on earth.
"First of all, then, I ask supplication, prayers and petitions be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our saviour, Who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

We see that we can ask others to pray to God for us:
"I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf."
-- Romans 15:30

Is this all these two passages want of us? "I ask supplication prayers and petitions offered for everyone." who is everyone? Does he mean everyone your just a few, because if he means everyone he also must mean the dead. So it is good and pleasing to God to pray for the dead.

"Prayers to God on my behalf." Am I the only one that noticed how Paul did not say exactly how the prayers get to God. There is leway there for a possibility to "praying to" the saints.

I also want to note, It is not praying to the saints, it is praying with the saints.

Check this out: "Bless the Lord, O you His angels, you mighty ones who do His word, hearkening to the voice of His word! Bless the Lord, all His hosts, His ministers that do His will!" (Ps. 103:20–21).

Who are we told blesses the lord -- the angels, the hosts that do His Will.
Do we cease blessing the Lord when we die?

quotes taken from http://www.catholic.com/library/Interce ... Saints.asp

"Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. "

"Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 18:10). "

"Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for "[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects" (Jas. 5:16). "

 

[notapseudonym]

What do the early Church fathers say?

Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).


Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).


Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).


Cyprian of Carthage
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).


Anonymous
"Atticus, sleep in peace, secure in your safety, and pray anxiously for our sins" (funerary inscription near St. Sabina’s in Rome [A.D. 300]).

"Pray for your parents, Matronata Matrona. She lived one year, fifty-two days" (ibid.).

"Mother of God, [listen to] my petitions; do not disregard us in adversity, but rescue us from danger" (Rylands Papyrus 3 [A.D. 350]).


Methodius
"Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. You are the beginning of our feast; you are its middle and end; the pearl of great price that belongs to the kingdom; the fat of every victim, the living altar of the Bread of Life [Jesus]. Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man. . . . You gleamed, sweet gift-bestowing Mother, with the light of the sun; you gleamed with the insupportable fires of a most fervent charity, bringing forth in the end that which was conceived of you . . . making manifest the mystery hidden and unspeakable, the invisible Son of the Fatherâ€â€the Prince of Peace, who in a marvelous manner showed himself as less than all littleness" (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).

"Therefore, we pray [ask] you, the most excellent among women, who glories in the confidence of your maternal honors, that you would unceasingly keep us in remembrance. O holy Mother of God, remember us, I say, who make our boast in you, and who in august hymns celebrate the memory, which will ever live, and never fade away" (ibid.).

"And you also, O honored and venerable Simeon, you earliest host of our holy religion, and teacher of the resurrection of the faithful, do be our patron and advocate with that Savior God, whom you were deemed worthy to receive into your arms. We, together with you, sing our praises to Christ, who has the power of life and death, saying, ‘You are the true Light, proceeding from the true Light; the true God, begotten of the true God’" (ibid.).


Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).


Hilary of Poitiers
"To those who wish to stand [in God’s grace], neither the guardianship of saints nor the defenses of angels are wanting" (Commentary on the Psalms 124:5:6 [A.D. 365]).


Ephraim the Syrian
"You victorious martyrs who endured torments gladly for the sake of the God and Savior, you who have boldness of speech toward the Lord himself, you saints, intercede for us who are timid and sinful men, full of sloth, that the grace of Christ may come upon us, and enlighten the hearts of all of us so that we may love him" (Commentary on Mark [A.D. 370]).

"Remember me, you heirs of God, you brethren of Christ; supplicate the Savior earnestly for me, that I may be freed through Christ from him that fights against me day by day" (The Fear at the End of Life [A.D. 370]).


The Liturgy of St. Basil
"By the command of your only-begotten Son we communicate with the memory of your saints . . . by whose prayers and supplications have mercy upon us all, and deliver us for the sake of your holy name" (Liturgy of St. Basil [A.D. 373]).


Pectorius
"Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph of Pectorius [A.D. 375]).


Gregory of Nazianz
"May you [Cyprian] look down from above propitiously upon us, and guide our word and life; and shepherd this sacred flock . . . gladden the Holy Trinity, before which you stand" (Orations 17[24] [A.D. 380]).

"Yes, I am well assured that [my father’s] intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay that obscured it, and holds conversation naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest mind . . . " (ibid., 18:4).


Gregory of Nyssa
"[Ephraim], you who are standing at the divine altar [in heaven] . . . bear us all in remembrance, petitioning for us the remission of sins, and the fruition of an everlasting kingdom" (Sermon on Ephraim the Syrian [A.D. 380]).


John Chrysostom
"He that wears the purple [i.e., a royal man] . . . stands begging of the saints to be his patrons with God, and he that wears a diadem begs the tentmaker [Paul] and the fisherman [Peter] as patrons, even though they be dead" (Homilies on Second Corinthians 26 [A.D. 392]).

"When you perceive that God is chastening you, fly not to his enemies . . . but to his friends, the martyrs, the saints, and those who were pleasing to him, and who have great power [in God]" (Orations 8:6 [A.D. 396]).


Ambrose of Milan
"May Peter, who wept so efficaciously for himself, weep for us and turn towards us Christ’s benign countenance" (The Six Days Work 5:25:90 [A.D. 393]).


Jerome
"You say in your book that while we live we are able to pray for each other, but afterwards when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard. . . . But if the apostles and martyrs while still in the body can pray for others, at a time when they ought still be solicitous about themselves, how much more will they do so after their crowns, victories, and triumphs?" (Against Vigilantius 6 [A.D. 406]).


Augustine
"A Christian people celebrates together in religious solemnity the memorials of the martyrs, both to encourage their being imitated and so that it can share in their merits and be aided by their prayers" (Against Faustus the Manichean [A.D. 400]).

"There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for the dead who are remembered. For it is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended" (Sermons 159:1 [A.D. 411]).

"At the Lord’s table we do not commemorate martyrs in the same way that we do others who rest in peace so as to pray for them, but rather that they may pray for us that we may follow in their footsteps" (Homilies on John 84 [A.D. 416]).

"Neither are the souls of the pious dead separated from the Church which even now is the kingdom of Christ. Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God in the communication of the Body of Christ" (The City of God 20:9:2 [A.D. 419]).

 

[BradtheImpaler]

The key question that you are asking (regarding the practice of intercession of Christians, one for another- and why we would ever do so in the first place) is a matter of huge import. If we are only to approach Christ in prayer, then I should never have anyone else here on earth pray for me. If those in heaven are truly alive, why should they not pray for me?

But when YOU pray (for yourself or for someone else) why do you sometimes petition a saint to intercede instead of always going straight to God? Why do you find that NECESSARY? Isn't one of the main points of the NT that you can petition God DIRECTLY? If you believe the saints in heaven are bringing you up before God on their own, then let them. Why are you praying to THEM also?

Perhaps you are sub-consciously (or otherwise) attributing divine powers to them? Let's look at a response from an Orthodox priest (Fr. Avery) to a Orthodox lay person concerning that person's choice of a "patron saint" for himself...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen...I hope you will PRAY TO HIM, FOR HE IS THE ONE WHO WILL BE GRANTING THE FAVORS HERE" (http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/)

DEITY: Any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or SOME ASPECT OF LIFE or who is the personification of a force (dictionary.com)

The format of most ancient pagan religions was to have a supreme deity and a host of lesser deities which were viewed as each having some control over an "aspect of life". This is where the idea of patron saints having a control over an aspect of life (usually something they were known for in their earthly life) comes from.

The question then comes: Are those saints in heaven omnipresent? In other words, how can they hear me?

Good question. Do they each have PC's with really large email capacities like Jim Carrey in "Bruce Almighty"?

 

[Orthodox Christian]

The key question that you are asking (regarding the practice of intercession of Christians, one for another- and why we would ever do so in the first place) is a matter of huge import. If we are only to approach Christ in prayer, then I should never have anyone else here on earth pray for me. If those in heaven are truly alive, why should they not pray for me?

But when YOU pray (for yourself or for someone else) why do you sometimes petition a saint to intercede instead of always going straight to God? Why do you find that NECESSARY? Isn't one of the main points of the NT that you can petition God DIRECTLY? If you believe the saints in heaven are bringing you up before God on their own, then let them. Why are you praying to THEM also?

Perhaps you are sub-consciously (or otherwise) attributing divine powers to them? Let's look at a response from an Orthodox priest (Fr. Avery) to a Orthodox lay person concerning that person's choice of a "patron saint" for himself...

"What a wonderful patron saint you have chosen...I hope you will PRAY TO HIM, FOR HE IS THE ONE WHO WILL BE GRANTING THE FAVORS HERE" (http://www.neepeople.com/patronsaint_jim/)

DEITY: Any supernatural being worshipped as controlling some part of the world or SOME ASPECT OF LIFE or who is the personification of a force (dictionary.com)

The format of most ancient pagan religions was to have a supreme deity and a host of lesser deities which were viewed as each having some control over an "aspect of life". This is where the idea of patron saints having a control over an aspect of life (usually something they were known for in their earthly life) comes from.

[quote:be31b]The question then comes: Are those saints in heaven omnipresent? In other words, how can they hear me?

Good question. Do they each have PC's with really large email capacities like Jim Carrey in "Bruce Almighty"?[/quote:be31b]
Ahh, my impetuous friend, sarcasm is never far from your bosom. As such, surely he will be your chief and perhaps only companion in the years to come.

Question the first:

Why not just go directly to God?

Perhaps you failed to get the point with my meta-question: Why should we ever ask anyone on earth (or in heaven) to pray for us? Perhaps you would like to take a crack at that question.

Question the second:
paraphrased

Do the saints have divine powers?

Tell me what you think this means: The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Question the third:
paraphrased

Do you see saints/Mary as lesser deities?

There is One God. In English, our language is VERY precise. God means the supreme ruler of the universe, and any lesser version of Him/Her/It would be a street corner Rolex knockoff.
Tell me what the Psalmist and Christ meant when he and He said
'ye are gods.'
Pagan, mayhaps? Your opinion, sir.

Question the 4th
paraphrased

Does this pop-culture reference make my point?

Bruce Almighty was a very good movie, all things considered, but I scarcely see it as even a good metaphor for anything.

Have you never wondered just what location in space a spirit would take up? Since time and space are intimately entwined, they who are not 'in' time- are they 'in' space? Can they be said to have a particular location? Are they nowhere, everywhere, somewhere?

Questions, Brad, questions are good. It is good to ponder and reflect and step outside our comfortable little Rationalist/positivist Newtonian box. In so doing, one begins to wonder how 2000 demons fit inside one man, or how the Kingdom of Heaven can be inside a limited body, or how He who is without limit grew within the confines of a womb.

Pondering and wetting a line,
James

 

[Dave...]

Eph. 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.

Duet. 18:10There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Ahh, my impetuous friend, sarcasm is never far from your bosom

Are you wearing a Darth Vader costume and breathing real "raspy"? I kinda get that picture (please don't tell me you're my father! :o)

As such, surely he will be your chief and perhaps only companion in the years to come

Sorry if I stole YOUR best friend

Perhaps you failed to get the point with my meta-question: Why should we ever ask anyone on earth (or in heaven) to pray for us? Perhaps you would like to take a crack at that question

I already exposed the diversion in your question. I'm asking you why, when YOU pray, you don't always pray to God but to someone else? Do you feel you can't always approach God directly? How do you think your earthly father would have felt if you always asked your brother or sister to approach him on your behalf, because, apparently, you felt that he was more likely to grant you YOUR request because THEY asked him for you?

Tell me what you think this means: The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Sounds self-explanatory? Are you saying that you are NOT a righteous man, and that you need a righteous man to pray for you? Well, that's what Jesus is supposed to be doing, right? Are you implying that even with Jesus Christ as your representative, you need to borrow some MORE righteousness from some dead human beings before God will lend you an ear? If anything, I think it's a slap in God/Jesus' face?

There is One God. In English, our language is VERY precise. God means the supreme ruler of the universe, and any lesser version of Him/Her/It would be a street corner Rolex knockoff.
Tell me what the Psalmist and Christ meant when he and He said
'ye are gods.'
Pagan, mayhaps? Your opinion, sir

Elohim referred to God/other gods/angels/or human rulers/judges

What is your point?

Bruce Almighty was a very good movie, all things considered, but I scarcely see it as even a good metaphor for anything

Have you never wondered just what location in space a spirit would take up? Since time and space are intimately entwined, they who are not 'in' time- are they 'in' space? Can they be said to have a particular location? Are they nowhere, everywhere, somewhere?

You mean kinda like God?

Questions, Brad, questions are good. It is good to ponder and reflect and step outside our comfortable little Rationalist/positivist Newtonian box. In so doing, one begins to wonder how 2000 demons fit inside one man, or how the Kingdom of Heaven can be inside a limited body, or how He who is without limit grew within the confines of a womb.

Or how beings who can (supposedly) hear and understand perhaps millions of prayers similtaneously (along with the fact that they are prayed TO in the first place) do NOT qualify as "objects of worship" or "supernatural beings" (deities) to your mind?

Pondering and wetting a line
James

Don't eat any "yellow snow" buddy! ;-)

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Ahh, my impetuous friend, sarcasm is never far from your bosom

Are you wearing a Darth Vader costume and breathing real "raspy"? I kinda get that picture (please don't tell me you're my father! :o)
Actually, I'm wearing a speedo and eating a chicken drumstick. Does that help you out?

As such, surely he will be your chief and perhaps only companion in the years to come

Sorry if I stole YOUR best friend
IKYABWAI is the domain of children and Pee Wee Herman. Which are you?

Perhaps you failed to get the point with my meta-question: Why should we ever ask anyone on earth (or in heaven) to pray for us? Perhaps you would like to take a crack at that question

I already exposed the diversion in your question.
Stop there, 86 the rest of your nonsense deflection. I asked the question, either answer it or take a hike.

Tell me what you think this means: The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Sounds self-explanatory? Are you saying that you are NOT a righteous man, and that you need a righteous man to pray for you? Well, that's what Jesus is supposed to be doing, right? Are you implying that even with Jesus Christ as your representative, you need to borrow some MORE righteousness from some dead human beings before God will lend you an ear? If anything, I think it's a slap in God/Jesus' face?
You should be able to apprehend this one for yourself, should you ever give some thought to the question I asked regarding the imperative for human intercession.

There is One God. In English, our language is VERY precise. God means the supreme ruler of the universe, and any lesser version of Him/Her/It would be a street corner Rolex knockoff.
Tell me what the Psalmist and Christ meant when he and He said
'ye are gods.'
Pagan, mayhaps? Your opinion, sir

Elohim referred to God/other gods/angels/or human rulers/judges

What is your point?
Point is that gradients of what you refer to as 'deity' existed in the Hebrew lexicon and ethos. So much for the fallacious correlation with paganism.
/hand

Bruce Almighty was a very good movie, all things considered, but I scarcely see it as even a good metaphor for anything

Have you never wondered just what location in space a spirit would take up? Since time and space are intimately entwined, they who are not 'in' time- are they 'in' space? Can they be said to have a particular location? Are they nowhere, everywhere, somewhere?

You mean kinda like God?
You like to answer questions with questions?

Questions, Brad, questions are good. It is good to ponder and reflect and step outside our comfortable little Rationalist/positivist Newtonian box. In so doing, one begins to wonder how 2000 demons fit inside one man, or how the Kingdom of Heaven can be inside a limited body, or how He who is without limit grew within the confines of a womb.

Or how beings who can (supposedly) hear and understand perhaps millions of prayers similtaneously (along with the fact that they are prayed TO in the first place) do NOT qualify as "objects of worship" or "supernatural beings" (deities) to your mind?
We all are, in fact, supernatural beings- that is, unless you buy into the souls sleep thing.
Regarding 'objects of worship,' we have already distinguished honor (proskeneo) from worship (latreia). In our day, few people do either.

Pondering and wetting a line
James

Don't eat any "yellow snow" buddy! ;-)

"Taste it." "Taste??" Yeah, man, taste it." "Taste like dog ****?" "Yeah, man." Well, then it is dog ****, man."
"Good thing we didn't step in it."
Not sure what old Cheech and Chong schtick have to do with this. Opt for their schtick, avoid their excesses- this is free advice from me to you.

 

[aiki]

Hello.

The idea that one may pray to dead saints is never explicitly stated anywhere in Scripture. We are told in James 5:16 that the "effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much." But this verse gives absolutely no hint that this extends to the righteous dead.

When Christ taught the disciples to pray he said nothing, not one one word, about praying to anyone other than the Heavenly Father. (Matt. 6:5-15)

As someone has already noted, "there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." (1 Tim. 2:5) What then of praying to saints? Nowhere in Scripture are dead saints (or living priests for that matter) given co-mediatorship with Christ.

Heidi made a good point about Christ being in us by the Holy Spirit and how this makes praying to dead saints redundant. What does Scripture say? "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Heb. 4:16) No mention of dead saints doing this for us here...

Why should we ask anyone an Earth to pray for us? Well, quite simply, because we are commanded to explictly and plainly -- unlike praying to dead saints. :wink:

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

dead saints

dead saints

dead saints

dead saints

There is no such thing as a dead saint

Read this, and learn:

Jesus said to her, your brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Well, Aiki, do you believe Jesus?

When Christ taught the disciples to pray he said nothing, not one one word, about praying to anyone other than the Heavenly Father. (Matt. 6:5-15)

Ahh- so we should NEVER have anyone else pray for us. According to you, Paul is an heretic:

First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men

Oh, but wait- tagged to the end of your post:

Why should we ask anyone an Earth to pray for us? Well, quite simply, because we are commanded to explictly and plainly -- unlike praying to dead saints

Where does it say explicitly and plainly that only people on earth should pray for us?
Here, post it right here, chapter and verse
___________________

Now I have a scripture which demonstrates that the prayers of the righteous are poured out, not by Jesus, but by 24 elders(did someone say 'mediators?')

When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Now that is direct evidence of the prayers of saints on earth being mediated in heaven.

The defense rests.

 

[Heidi]

Praying to saints is simply another made-up gospel by the catholic church.

 

[Orthodox Christian]

Not to be tread upon.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Ahh, my impetuous friend, sarcasm is never far from your bosom

Are you wearing a Darth Vader costume and breathing real "raspy"? I kinda get that picture (please don't tell me you're my father! :o)
Actually, I'm wearing a speedo and eating a chicken drumstick. Does that help you out?

ugh...no, not a pretty thought :-?

[quote:5ae74]As such, surely he will be your chief and perhaps only companion in the years to come

Sorry if I stole YOUR best friend
IKYABWAI is the domain of children and Pee Wee Herman. Which are you?

"IKYABWAI"? All I was inferring was that in reading some of your previous posts, I didn't think sarcasm was exactly a "stranger" to you.

Perhaps you failed to get the point with my meta-question: Why should we ever ask anyone on earth (or in heaven) to pray for us? Perhaps you would like to take a crack at that question

I already exposed the diversion in your question.
Stop there, 86 the rest of your nonsense deflection. I asked the question, either answer it or take a hike.

You lumped those on earth and in heaven together - you "loaded" the question.

Tell me what you think this means: The effectual, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much

Sounds self-explanatory? Are you saying that you are NOT a righteous man, and that you need a righteous man to pray for you? Well, that's what Jesus is supposed to be doing, right? Are you implying that even with Jesus Christ as your representative, you need to borrow some MORE righteousness from some dead human beings before God will lend you an ear? If anything, I think it's a slap in God/Jesus' face?
You should be able to apprehend this one for yourself, should you ever give some thought to the question I asked regarding the imperative for human intercession.

Nope - you lost me.

There is One God. In English, our language is VERY precise. God means the supreme ruler of the universe, and any lesser version of Him/Her/It would be a street corner Rolex knockoff.
Tell me what the Psalmist and Christ meant when he and He said
'ye are gods.'
Pagan, mayhaps? Your opinion, sir

Elohim referred to God/other gods/angels/or human rulers/judges

What is your point?
Point is that gradients of what you refer to as 'deity' existed in the Hebrew lexicon and ethos. So much for the fallacious correlation with paganism.

I thought your point was that the saints you pray to are not "gods", now you try to show the Pharisees were? If the Pharisees were "gods", what would that make those whom you make images of and pray to?

/hand

Bruce Almighty was a very good movie, all things considered, but I scarcely see it as even a good metaphor for anything

Have you never wondered just what location in space a spirit would take up? Since time and space are intimately entwined, they who are not 'in' time- are they 'in' space? Can they be said to have a particular location? Are they nowhere, everywhere, somewhere?

You mean kinda like God?
You like to answer questions with questions?

You just answered my question, that I answered your question with, with a question. Tag - you're "it".

Questions, Brad, questions are good. It is good to ponder and reflect and step outside our comfortable little Rationalist/positivist Newtonian box. In so doing, one begins to wonder how 2000 demons fit inside one man, or how the Kingdom of Heaven can be inside a limited body, or how He who is without limit grew within the confines of a womb.

Or how beings who can (supposedly) hear and understand perhaps millions of prayers similtaneously (along with the fact that they are prayed TO in the first place) do NOT qualify as "objects of worship" or "supernatural beings" (deities) to your mind?

We all are, in fact, supernatural beings- that is, unless you buy into the souls sleep thing.

If we're ALL "supernatural beings" then to be "supernatural" only amounts to "normal" or "natural". Unless you insist on calling everyone supernatural then I guess the ones you pray to would be SUPER-supernatural?

(the door marked "relativism" is not a good one for you to open either - try the one marked - "Get Out of the Dark Ages and Join the 21st Century", a.k.a - "Why Prostrating Yourself Before Hand-Painted Images Should Be Embarrassing")

Regarding 'objects of worship,' we have already distinguished honor (proskeneo) from worship (latreia). In our day, few people do either.

Point well taken. So why do you assume that the majority of Orthodox laity are only "honoring" icons and not "worshipping" them?

Pondering and wetting a line
James

[/color][/quote:5ae74]

Here's some more advice - don't get too abstract with your banter, people won't "get it". :wink:

 

[Aloha Joe]

You mean kinda like God?
You like to answer questions with questions?

You just answered my question, that I answered your question with, with a question. Tag - you're "it".

I'm pretty sure it was an intentional irony.

 

[aiki]

OrthoC:

LOL! :D The Teacher has spoken, eh?

The saints to which I have referred are indeed dead. That is, they have died. As far as their existence on this planet is concerned, it has come to an end.

To use your quotation from Christ, OrthoC:

"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

I'd like you to note that middle part, OrthoC, where Christ says, "he who believes in me will live even though he dies". Doesn't Christ know his own doctrine? How can he say, "even though he dies"? Doesn't he know there are no dead saints? Maybe he needs to talk to you about this, OrthoC. :wink: :-D

I shall be more specific for you in the future and refer to dead saints as those saints who have died. That oughta' satisfy your angst about correct phrasing.

Well, Aiki, do you believe Jesus?

Yup.

Ahh- so we should NEVER have anyone else pray for us. According to you, Paul is an heretic:

"First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men"

Actually, what I said was that Christ taught that we should only pray to the Father. I never said anything about prohibiting praying for someone. So, then, Paul and I are in perfect agreement. :D

Where does it say explicitly and plainly that only people on earth should pray for us?
Here, post it right here, chapter and verse

Oookay.

Matthew 5:44 - "...pray for them who despitefully use you, and persecute you..."

Here Christ is speaking primarily to his disciples -- who are alive on earth -- and commanding them very explicitly to pray for their enemies. This command cannot include those who have died for they are no longer persecuted or used despitefully.

1 Thessalonians 5:25 - "Brethren, pray for us."

Here Paul gives his fellow brothers in Christ in Thessalonica the injunction to pray for him. As one reads the letter to the Thessalonian Christians, one quickly realizes that Paul did not believe he was writing to those who had already died. :wink: His request is given to living people for living people (who are on Earth), namely, himself and those with him. Paul doesn't suggest anywhere in this letter that the Thessalonians should enlist the help of those saints who have died in praying for them. (see also 2 Thess. 3:1)

Ephesians 6:18 - "Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit watching there unto with all perseverance and and supplication for all saints. And for me..."

Again, here, Paul is addressing the living Ephesian Christians (on Earth). He commands them to pray (or supplicate) for all saints, including himself.

James 5:16 - "...pray for one another..."

The context of this verse makes it clear that James is addressing living, Earth-bound, people. He is commanding them to pray for one another. That is, one living, Earth-bound, person praying for another living, Earth-bound person.

Now I have a scripture which demonstrates that the prayers of the righteous are poured out, not by Jesus, but by 24 elders(did someone say 'mediators?')

Quote:
"When He had taken the book, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

Now that is direct evidence of the prayers of saints on earth being mediated in heaven.

The defense rests.

I hope you don't make a living as a defence lawyer! :o :-? You'd be starving to death!

All that the verse you posted says is that some elders, fallen down before the Lamb, are holding harps and bowls of incense that are the prayers of the saints. That's it. It doesn't say anything about whether or not the prayers had already been heard by God or the Lamb or not. It doesn't say how these bowls came to be in the possession of the elders or for what purpose the bowls are in their possession. It doesn't even say that the incense is offered by the elders to the Lamb. All they are doing with the "bowls of prayer" is holding them. There is no pouring out going on at all, OrthoC. So, where's this "saint mediation" that you're suggesting is present in this verse?

Got anything else :roll: you'd like to teach me?

In Christ, Aiki.

 

[notapseudonym]

Physical Death - the seperation of the soul from the body.

Spiritual death - is there any spiritual death? If there is that means that our soul dies and therefore we can't live eternally with God or in Hell ever separated from Him. But after our physical death there is something more, some greater life, and we understand that to be Heaven or Hell.

On the other hand what if there is true spiritual death? Does that mean our soul dies and we simply cease to exist? Is this life pointless, should we just eat, drink, and me merry? No, idn't that why we have faith, Jesus, and the promise of something greater?

So coming from the point of someone with faith there surely cannot be a spiritual death, otherwise our beliefs, faith, Christ would make no sense. So we do not cease to exist. Therefore those who are dewad and gone before us are not dead, but infactr alive with Christ (those in Heaven anyway).


"Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"

The above quote, physical death, and then He deals with Spiritual life.