Christian Forums

Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Christian Forum aspires to be an online community where Christians can come together in fellowship with the purpose to encourage, inspire and build up our faith in Christ Jesus. John 13:34-35
  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Pastor Artur Pawlowski

hawkman

Member
From
Alabama
Gender
Male
Messages
548
Joined
May 16, 2021
Canadian Pastor Artur Pawlowski's court hearing is coming up 10/13 and he needs our prayers .

Going to jail for keeping his church doors open ? Is this the world we now live in ?

Canadian pastor arrested at airport warns Americans: 'You're next'
And Free replied this .......
Just some clarity. He was not arrested for keeping his church open. He repeatedly refused to follow the health regulations in holding his services. He was then found in contempt of court and that is why he was arrested. The vast majority of churches that decided to keep their doors open had no issue because they followed the health measures.

This is absolutely not a case of persecution, as Artur and the media like to make it seem. It’s Romans 13:1-7 in action.
I decided to start a new thread for discussion , Prayer Requests , Praise & Testimonies was not the proper place .

Romans 13 has always struck me as odd , but now thanks to this article I understand .

Romans 13​
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

"No doubt many will not be convinced that the original context is a Judean one. They have been too mesmerized by only one perspective.

They will continue to drink deeply from this passage to support giving allegiance to this program or that agenda of a secular government – but it is a dry hole.

To see government authority as the focal point in this passage is an interpretative mirage.

Context, context, context causes the mirage to fade into the clear vision of Paul’s very real concern about Judean nonbelievers’ and Gentile believers’ relationship."

Link to what I quoted .
Context Is Key to Interpreting Romans 13:1-7
 
  • Like
Reactions: JLB

Adoration

Member
From
Canada
Gender
Female
Messages
679
Joined
Jul 25, 2021
This topic reminds me of when Peter cut off the ear of the soldier... Jesus rebuked Peter and healed
the soldier. In my opinion... FAR too much shouting is going on... and the Christians are not behaving any
better than the secular world... as a matter of fact... I think the Christians are behaving worse.

Not a popular view I have... so I will not debate it.

The pastors that were arrested... jailed and fined... were given these punishments because they refused to comply with the health and welfare mandates set for ALL to follow. I repeat that this issue with holding church was NOT religious persecution... but rather an issue of large crowds.

People singing... touching... speaking... THAT was the issue.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,174
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
This topic reminds me of when Peter cut off the ear of the soldier... Jesus rebuked Peter and healed
the soldier. In my opinion... FAR too much shouting is going on... and the Christians are not behaving any
better than the secular world... as a matter of fact... I think the Christians are behaving worse.

Not a popular view I have... so I will not debate it.

The pastors that were arrested... jailed and fined... were given these punishments because they refused to comply with the health and welfare mandates set for ALL to follow. I repeat that this issue with holding church was NOT religious persecution... but rather an issue of large crowds.

People singing... touching... speaking... THAT was the issue.


So your perspective that Christians wanting to gather for church service is behaving worse than the world?


What a strange thing to believe from a Christian.






JLB
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,174
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
This topic reminds me of when Peter cut off the ear of the soldier... Jesus rebuked Peter and healed
the soldier. In my opinion... FAR too much shouting is going on... and the Christians are not behaving any
better than the secular world... as a matter of fact... I think the Christians are behaving worse.


How about when the Apostles defied the authorities to continue preaching the Gospel, and were jailed?


Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and untrained men, they marveled. And they realized that they had been with Jesus. And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they could say nothing against it. But when they had commanded them to go aside out of the council, they conferred among themselves, saying, “What shall we do to these men? For, indeed, that a notable miracle has been done through them is evident to all who dwell in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. But so that it spreads no further among the people, let us severely threaten them, that from now on they speak to no man in this name.”
So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you more than to God, you judge. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard.” So when they had further threatened them, they let them go, finding no way of punishing them, because of the people, since they all glorified God for what had been done. For the man was over forty years old on whom this miracle of healing had been performed. Acts 4:13-22


Of course an angel came and released him.


Then the high priest rose up, and all those who were with him (which is the sect of the Sadducees), and they were filled with indignation, and laid their hands on the apostles and put them in the common prison. But at night an angel of the Lord opened the prison doors and brought them out, and said, “Go, stand in the temple and speak to the people all the words of this life. Acts 5:17-20






JLB
 
Last edited:

Adoration

Member
From
Canada
Gender
Female
Messages
679
Joined
Jul 25, 2021
So your perspective that Christians wanting to gather for church service is behaving worse than the world?


What a strange thing to believe from a Christian.
Nope.... that is not what I said... I said that these pastors that are being deemed as heros by some have chosen to BREAK the LAW for NOT following SAFETY mandates set aside for ALL establishments of LARGE CROWDS.
Some Christians chose to call this persecution... when in all reality it was something ALL people who run large businesses were asked to comply with.

How is a pastor SCREAMING and going against the law any different than some of the secular business owners?? Same attitude... same result... jail time and fines.

I think this should have been a time for deep prayer and reflection... repentance as well as really taking a look at WHAT CHURCH ( the body ) should be. Many churches learned to do services ON LINE.... quietly and with respect for the law.
 

Isilwen

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
447
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
Nope.... that is not what I said... I said that these pastors that are being deemed as heros by some have chosen to BREAK the LAW for NOT following SAFETY mandates set aside for ALL establishments of LARGE CROWDS.
Some Christians chose to call this persecution... when in all reality it was something ALL people who run large businesses were asked to comply with.

How is a pastor SCREAMING and going against the law any different than some of the secular business owners?? Same attitude... same result... jail time and fines.

I think this should have been a time for deep prayer and reflection... repentance as well as really taking a look at WHAT CHURCH ( the body ) should be. Many churches learned to do services ON LINE.... quietly and with respect for the law.

Agree with you 100% on this. It would be persecution if only churches were targeted and the mandate literally said only churches. When all establishments are the focus of the mandate, it is not persecution of the church.

Saying that it is persecution makes Christians sound like they think they are above the law at all times.
 

Adoration

Member
From
Canada
Gender
Female
Messages
679
Joined
Jul 25, 2021
Agree with you 100% on this. It would be persecution if only churches were targeted and the mandate literally said only churches. When all establishments are the focus of the mandate, it is not persecution of the church.

Saying that it is persecution makes Christians sound like they think they are above the law at all times.
Not to mention it is an absolute INSULT to those who are actually and literally being killed for owning a bible.
We have been inconvenienced... we have not been persecuted ( at this time ).
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,174
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Nope.... that is not what I said... I said that these pastors that are being deemed as heros by some have chosen to BREAK the LAW for NOT following SAFETY mandates set aside for ALL establishments of LARGE CROWDS.
Some Christians chose to call this persecution... when in all reality it was something ALL people who run large businesses were asked to comply with.

How is a pastor SCREAMING and going against the law any different than some of the secular business owners?? Same attitude... same result... jail time and fines.

I think this should have been a time for deep prayer and reflection... repentance as well as really taking a look at WHAT CHURCH ( the body ) should be. Many churches learned to do services ON LINE.... quietly and with respect for the law.


The context and subject matter you yourself have chosen to substantiate is obey civil authorities. Specifically not gathering for Church services because of COVID.




Below is your quote —


FAR too much shouting is going on... and the Christians are not behaving any better than the secular world... as a matter of fact... I think the Christians are behaving worse.

The pastors that were arrested... jailed and fined
... were given these punishments because they refused to comply with the health and welfare mandates set for ALL to follow. I repeat that this issue with holding church was NOT religious persecution... but rather an issue of large crowds.


The Pastors we’re arrested, jailed and fined because they chose to gather for Church against the policy of the authorities.

That is the context for your statement which says —


Christians are not behaving any better than the secular world... as a matter of fact... I think the Christians are behaving worse.



You should be ashamed of yourself.





JLB
 

Isilwen

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
447
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
You should be ashamed of yourself.

I think Adoration has nothing to be ashamed of.

They are right. There is no persecution against the church with these mandates. It isn't like the mandate singled out churches and said you cannot gather. It was all establishments. If they singled out churches you would have a point, but they didn't.

Christians are not above the law when it doesn't go against God. Christians acting like they are makes makes them on par or worse then the secular world.
 

Adoration

Member
From
Canada
Gender
Female
Messages
679
Joined
Jul 25, 2021
You should be ashamed of yourself.
and this is why I left the forums the first time... Point in case... many Christians are acting NO differently than the secular world. I am grateful that CHRIST tells me that I no longer need to feel shame because I am washed in HIS PRECIOUS BLOOD. He died to save me from all my sins.
 

Free

Member
From
AB, Canada
Gender
Male
Messages
13,862
Joined
Apr 2, 2003
I decided to start a new thread for discussion , Prayer Requests , Praise & Testimonies was not the proper place .

Romans 13 has always struck me as odd , but now thanks to this article I understand .

Romans 13​
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

"No doubt many will not be convinced that the original context is a Judean one. They have been too mesmerized by only one perspective.

They will continue to drink deeply from this passage to support giving allegiance to this program or that agenda of a secular government – but it is a dry hole.

To see government authority as the focal point in this passage is an interpretative mirage.

Context, context, context causes the mirage to fade into the clear vision of Paul’s very real concern about Judean nonbelievers’ and Gentile believers’ relationship."

Link to what I quoted .
Context Is Key to Interpreting Romans 13:1-7
I certainly agree that context matters a great deal. As Greg Koukl says, context is king. The irony here is that the author has inserted his own context into Romans 13. There are several concerns but none of them are about "Judean nonbelievers’ and Gentile believers’ relationship". His concern for unsaved Jews was for their salvation, not their relationship to Gentile believers. The main theme of Romans is the gospel, as seen in the first few verses, for both salvation and its practical outworking in the Christian life. After giving the theology in the first 11 chapters, he then provides the practical application in the final ones. The Jewish and Gentile relationship that Paul is concerned about is of that between believers (chapter 14).

The church in Rome was likely mostly Gentile but also had Jewish believers. There is nothing at all in the context of the entire book of Romans to suggest that 13:1-7 is speaking of the rulers of the synagogues, and everything to suggest that he is indeed speaking of the Roman authorities. This is made all the more clear by the commands for general Christian conduct in chapter 12, which ends with not taking vengeance, doing good to one's enemy, and overcoming evil with good. To believe that Paul then suddenly switches to a discussion about obeying synagogue rulers does not make sense. Paul is continuing the same line of thought from the end of chapter 12, where it is the Roman authorities (and, by extension, all authorities, everywhere, in all times) who are God's chosen instrument to punish the evil doer. Chapter 14 then begins with discussion about passing judgement on what other believers eat and drink and what days they observe. This strongly suggests disagreements between Jewish and Gentile believers. Again, nothing to do with synagogues or Jewish rulers.

One glaring error by the author is this argument: “This Judean context makes perfect sense of verses 1-7 as one reads Romans. For example, Paul speaks of authority that exists from God (v.1) and is appointed by God (v. 2). This hardly sounds like a description of Caesar and his predatory legions.” Yet, Jesus says this to Pilate, a Roman governor:

Joh 19:10 So Pilate said to him, “You will not speak to me? Do you not know that I have authority to release you and authority to crucify you?”

Joh 19:11 Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above. Therefore he who delivered me over to you has the greater sin.” (ESV)

See also Hab 1:6, which shows that God raises or puts in place even evil governments and rulers for his purposes, and Dan 2:20-21, where it is God who both removes and puts in place kings. That the author would make such a glaring mistake suggests that he is reading his own ideas into Rom 13:1-7.

That Paul is speaking of earthly authorities in Rom 13 is supported by his instruction to Titus, to “remind [the believers in Crete] to be submissive to rulers and authorities” (3:1). That is entirely consistent with his command to the church in Rome.

Additionally, we also need to consider what Peter wrote:

1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. (ESV)

There is absolutely no doubt that Peter is here telling believers to obey all earthly authorities. But what is even more significant is that this was during a time of persecution, which was rather one of the main reasons for the letter. This, too, is completely consistent with Paul’s commands to the church in Rome to obey the secular authorities.

What does all of this add up to? It means that all believers are to obey all earthly authorities as God-given, with the obvious exception that we do not do so if what they require would cause believers to sin.

There is more that can be said but, for the sake of brevity, that is sufficient enough to show that the author of that article is making up his own context. The stronger position is that Paul really is telling the believers in Rome to obey the Roman authorities because God has placed them there. That is a consistent message throughout the Bible.
 

Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
Supporter
From
Inverness Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
15,018
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
And Free replied this .......

I decided to start a new thread for discussion , Prayer Requests , Praise & Testimonies was not the proper place .

Romans 13 has always struck me as odd , but now thanks to this article I understand .

Romans 13​
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

"No doubt many will not be convinced that the original context is a Judean one. They have been too mesmerized by only one perspective.

They will continue to drink deeply from this passage to support giving allegiance to this program or that agenda of a secular government – but it is a dry hole.

To see government authority as the focal point in this passage is an interpretative mirage.

Context, context, context causes the mirage to fade into the clear vision of Paul’s very real concern about Judean nonbelievers’ and Gentile believers’ relationship."

Link to what I quoted .
Context Is Key to Interpreting Romans 13:1-7
Churches go corporate to save/make money.
Thus they are under government control.
If he was independent and trusted God and paid his taxes to Caesar, they would not bother him.
It's an example of how probably more than 90% of our churches are corporations.
 

Rollo Tamasi

Warrior for Christ
Supporter
From
Inverness Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
15,018
Joined
Nov 23, 2012
That was uncalled for.
Yes, it's comments like that why some mods want me banned for life.
Problem is, it's an honest statement pointed at a baby.
Sometimes discipline is the best medicine.
So I will not take it back, I will not apologize, and if you want to be a wimpy Christian, that's your business.
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
Staff member
Administrator
From
Houston Texas
Gender
Male
Messages
30,174
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
I think Adoration has nothing to be ashamed of.

The issue I was addressing was the comment made that because this Pastor and congregation gathered for Church services they were behaving worse than secular non believers.


That’s the context of my statement.


Christians are not behaving any better than the secular world... as a matter of fact... I think the Christians are behaving worse.





JLB
 

Isilwen

Member
From
Central Florida
Gender
Male
Messages
447
Joined
Feb 22, 2021
The issue I was addressing was the comment made that because this Pastor and congregation gathered for Church services they were behaving worse than secular non believers.


That’s the context of my statement.








JLB

Then I believe you are taking what Adoration said out of context as I do not believe that they are saying that by going to church they are behaving worse than the secular world.
 
Top